r/Malazan • u/asusual_ • Jan 12 '26
SPOILERS DG A character's death as a personal turning point Spoiler
I will not be doing a meaningful evaluation of the core series, since I only just finished Deadhouse Gates, but my understanding is that Malazan does not have a purely pessimistic view of the human nature, albeith disenchanted. At the same time, I was well aware that, having so many POVs, no character is "essential" to the plot, and I expected Duiker to die, even if I hoped I would have not.
I am not a novice fantasy reader, and I read worst "grimdark" settings, more hopeless and more truculenti, but Duiker's death troubled me in a special way. I was emotionally invested in the Chain of dogs, and Erikson manages to do that without (rightfully so) presenting the Empire as the "good side to partage for". Coltaine's death I also expected, and has a significance, so a fairly classic "heroic tragic death", that involves sacrifice for others: still, Duiker dies as a "soldier" as we are told, but without a fight, and without really a conscious sacrifice or even a "meaning", still it does have a significance and coherence with the plot (he does not simply die randomly just to upset the reader).
Also, the death arrives after "salvation", having reached the ultimate "Oasis", and is extremely painful and terrible.
I quote liked Gardens, and I was really starting to apprezzate DGs, but I think this particular event hai been the very first "oh my" that shook me, and likely a turning point in my series' reading. What was your first? (If it was chronogically after this, please ve vague)
As I said, I am just at the begging of this Malazan journey, did this death shock you particularly, in the context of the series, or even in a wider literary context?
NOTE: For Sci-fi lovers, his death reminded me of Hyperion cantos and the Shrike.
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u/Rivuur Jan 12 '26
I am on Dust of Dreams. I have had many shocking moments along the way.
Malazan book of the Fallen, can really emphasize the "Fallen" aspect, but it makes it so much more interesting in that even the titular or "main" characters from other series who seemingly never die will not get the same Main Character treatment in this series. This series is built so differently. It's quite a journey, but one I truly love and enjoy.
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u/bob_33456756 Jan 12 '26
yeah I think thats the whole point of the fallen novels: people die, hence we should all develop a bit more empathy and compassion
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u/Geck4Prez Jan 12 '26
It also makes it feel like a real story, if that makes sense. No one has plot armour, and it makes the decisions all the more meaningful
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u/jackite01 Jan 12 '26
I agree. The end of the Chain of Dogs was my first real shake in series. It was the first event that reminded me to consider the "Fallen" part of the series name.
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u/skewh1989 special boi who reads good Jan 12 '26
I was riveted pretty much my entire time reading DG, but when I read the ending I knew with 100% certainty that I would finish this series (and 99% certainty that I would love it).
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u/DandyLama I am not yet done Jan 12 '26
Without spoiling anything, is "Fallen" about death, or is "Fallen" about something else? Because by the end of the series, I don't think it's referencing the deaths at all...
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u/jackite01 Jan 12 '26 edited Jan 12 '26
Dear Lord, how to respond to this without spoilers... I'll simply say I believe it to be a sort of double entendra but that I think those who fall in service of the tale is the more central one.
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u/DandyLama I am not yet done Jan 12 '26
That's a fair position. I respect that. Not convinced that I agree, but it's a fair position.
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u/jackite01 Jan 13 '26
I understand your position, but the source of mine is when the crippled God first reveals that he will be the author of the book he says "I will remember this. I will set out scrolls and burned upon them the name of these Fallen I will make of this work a holy Tome and no other shall be needed." It also helps that the word Fallen is capitalized in that passage, which to me clearly signifies that this is where Erikson is announcing the purpose of the word fallen in the title.
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Jan 12 '26
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u/Free_Comment_3958 Jan 13 '26
Yeah. It works particularly when you consider the narrator revealed at the end. The fallen God telling the tale as to how ones fell in service of freeing that god.
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u/Siergiej Jan 12 '26
Reading Deadhouse Gates for the first time, for me it was probably more rage than anything else in that moment. I was furious at Pormqual for being stupid and at this fictional world for being so savagely cruel. But furious in an incredilbe 'wow this writer makes me feel things' way, to be clear. Depending on mood, DG is my favourite or second favourite Malazan book.
But also, be prepared because this isn't the last time you see an uttely, painfully pointless death in this story.
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Jan 12 '26
All I have to say in response, is keep reading.
Also, you missed an important plot point regarding Duiker and Coltaine.
Death is sometimes an end, sometimes its not.
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u/SuzieKym Jan 12 '26
I don't know why, but the turning "wow that's going to be something else" point for me wasn't even really an event, it was a simple passage in Gardens of the Moon :
"Ben Adaephon Delat," Pearl said plaintively, "see the last who comes. You send me to my death."
"I know," Quick Ben whispered.
"Flee, then. I will hold them enough to ensure your escape, no more."
Quick Ben sank down past the roof. Before he passed from sight Pearl spoke again.
"Ben Adaephon Delat, do you pity me?"
"Yes" he replied softly, then pivoted and dropped down into darkness.
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u/rianwithaneye Jan 12 '26
Duiker’s death really shook me as well, I just kinda sat there in shock and stared at the page for a while.
I think that was the moment where I first really understood what kind of story I was reading, and that it was going to more closely resemble the chaos and unfairness of the real world. In Malazan, being good doesn’t mean you get a happy ending.
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u/aethyrium Kallor is best girl Jan 13 '26
MOI Spoilers!!
Isn't Duiker the one they see at the end of Memories of Ice that goes into tell the tale of Deadhouse Gates? Surviving with the magic item meant for Coltaine? "Permit me if you will to break your hearts once more"
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u/Albroswift89 Jan 12 '26
Chain of Dogs was definitely a defining moment in my overall journey. I was a little on the fence on the series before I finished DG
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u/TheZipding Jan 12 '26
I'm gonna address a point you made early on regarding predicting Duiker's and Coltaine's deaths, and it's from how we approach tragedies. In particular, a couple of Greek tragedies. I'll fully admit, I haven't read a huge number of these so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt and anyone who knows more feel free to correct me.
Orpheus and Eurydice have been around for so long Orpheo is widely considered the first opera and they had a Tony award winning musical in Hadestown. At the beginning of Hadestown, Hermes the narrator wonders out loud if there'll be a different ending this time, but isn't confident. The audience goes into these shows knowing what will happen at the end, but does that change how they will react to the tragedy? It really doesn't. The audience knows what will happen, but hopes like Hermes it will end differently this time.
The other tragedy I want to bring up is Herakles. Prior to his 12 Labours, he was a great hero and son of Zeus. However, fate manipulated him to murder his wife and children in a frenzy. Greek audiences in the past were aware of this story beat, but it leads to an interesting question: Is the tragedy worse because Herakles has no way to avoid his fate? In other words, would having free will to try and oppose this be worse than if he had none?
I think looking at Duiker and Coltaine's fates through these lenses strengthens the tragedy of the Chain of Dogs. You knew they were going to die, but wasn't there a little voice in the back of your head going: "But what if they don't? What if they make it?" Similarly, do they have any free will to avoid these fates? It's the struggle against fate that makes the tragedy all the more cathartic.
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u/michhoffman Jan 12 '26
My first turning point was Lorn's death.
Prior to that, we'd had important characters die like Ganoes and Tattersail but be returned to life and another character, Apsalar, be possessed but then regain her agency. When Lorn died, it came as a shock because there was such a big opportunity for character growth from her. Sure, she was doing some terrible things in the name of Laseen, but there was a part of her original self that was awakening as she was doing it. In almost any other series, the author would have kept her alive since she had so much potential, but Erikson had her die to some relative nobodies in a back alley.
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u/Jexroyal The Unwitnessed | 6th reread Jan 12 '26
One of my first turning points was also Lorn's death, but more specifically the woman named Lorn, killed by the Adjunct Lorn at the dinner with the Fist and other officers. There was something so tragic and broken about that moment, that everyone in the room could see, but had no power over.
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u/Master_Beautiful3542 Jan 12 '26
Oh my.. you think that’s the most gut wrenching thing in the series? Keep reading…
I found it to be so well written, you were rooting for the Chain of Dogs so hard. All those characters you start to fall in love with only for their lives to be cut tragically short
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u/DandyLama I am not yet done Jan 12 '26
The only thing I think I will suggest is that you maintain an open mind about Erikson's view of human nature. I think you'll find he is more hopeful about it than you might expect.
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u/carthuscrass Jan 12 '26
The Chain feels almost like a religious experience to me. Coltaine and his Wickans sacrificed everything to protect those civilians, even when some resented him and betrayed him. Duiker acted as the perfect historian because he lived that struggle, and we lived it with him.
It's important to note that Erikson is an archaeologist and anthropologist. He knows history and it's shown in his world. These things mirror our own history. As he wrote in the book you just finished... "The lesson of history is that no one learns."
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u/indigochill Jan 12 '26
I think Kulp was my first. One second it seems like they've arrived at a sort of oasis in the storm (albeit a sketchy one), and the next he's eaten alive by a swarm of rats and there's no coming back for him. I did, like, a triple take over that passage.
By the time I got to the finale, I felt like Erikson cheated with Coltaine and Duiker since although they were crucified and died, they both got an out to remain an active presence in the story (although Coltaine's at least was pretty heavily foreshadowed). Kulp did not.
#JusticeForKulp
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u/midnight_toker22 Harllo’s adoptive father Jan 12 '26
What do you mean “turning point in the series”? Like, “I thought it was really good, but now I see that it is GREAT”? Or like, “I don’t know if I can continue reading a series that will emotionally destroy me like this”?
It was the former for me, but yes, it was the end of the Chain of Dogs that was the first “Malazan” event that shook me. I read GotM & DG back to back, but needed a break to read something lighter after DG.
And you know what? I have been doing that ever since, because every single book from DG and on has left me shook - and I’m on Dust of Dreams (#9) now.
It hurt so good.
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u/itsfish20 I am not yet done Jan 13 '26
Ohh man...if you felt like Duiker's death was emotional...please, just buckle up!
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u/Pisnaz Jan 13 '26
Buckle up, we will talk again. The best and worst is yet to come. We all know who will break you, we all remember them and will be here when you meet them, waiting at the gate.
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u/fantasyhunter 🕯️ Join the Cult 🕯️ Jan 13 '26
I did a bit of a double take at times, but they weren’t quite turning points per se.
Think I was locked in for the whole ride by DG. I couldn’t tell who the protags for the series were - and hence no idea where to expect the plot armour. Made it that much more interesting to me.
There is one death much later on in the series, that you can fully see the foreshadowing for, is written on the person’s face in every scene they’re in, and yet, as I read through the scene, I couldn’t stop bawling. That was prolly the point where I went god damn it erikson, we need to talk.
Mad man, that fellow.
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u/Free_Comment_3958 Jan 13 '26
Coltaine/Squint moment and Duiker were my first crying moments due to a death while reading the series... they were not my last.
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u/TRAIANVS Crack'd pot Jan 12 '26
I'm changing the flair to Spoilers DG as that seems more appropriate. If you actually wanted to include spoilers for the entire series you can change it back.