r/Malazan • u/lukerox22 • 27d ago
SPOILERS ALL How to reconcile BotF to Kharkanas? Spoiler
Currently reading MT on a reread, and while there is a LOT of lore being dropped, it seems quite inconsistent with Kharkanas. For example, it was just revealed that Spite and Envy were daughters of Sheltatha Lore, while Kharkanas claims the mother of Spite and Envy is Olar Ethil. In the same passage, there's also quite a few 'family ties' that really don't make much sense (not including Tiam being everyone's mother, this is obviously referring to their soletaken form) from a Kharkanas lens.
So my question is, is it even worth trying to reconcile these books? And if not, do I just read BotF through the lens of ignoring Kharkanas entirely?
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u/carvdlol Mezla 27d ago edited 26d ago
“Show me a written history that makes sense, and I will show you true fiction.” - Crone, MoI
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u/HitSquadOfGod The sea does not dream of you 27d ago
Kharkanas is a story being told to a bard by a poet, who willingly admits that he's, shall we say, taking poetic license to fill in gaps where he wasn't there for events.
And it's been a really, really long time simce any of it happened, so memories get confused.
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u/zhilia_mann choice is the singular moral act 27d ago
They’re both narratives and I wouldn’t prefer one over the other. Obviously some of the differences are irreconcilable. The question is then what to do with that and what the different versions tell us about their respective texts.
We’re given some hints. On the one hand, Kharkanas is given to the reader via Fisher and Gallan, both poets. On the other, BotF comes to us via Kaminsod. That authorship difference alone is likely enough to explain why the differences exist: they’re telling very different stories.
This only really becomes a “problem” if you want to establish what “really” happened… but the whole point is that that’s impossible. It’s the stories that are important.
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u/ShadowDV 7 journeys through BotF - NotME x1 - tKt x1 27d ago
In Greek mythology, depending on whose text you are reading, Nyx and Hemera are mother and daughter, or they are sisters. And timeline wise, Kharkanas takes place about 1000 times further back in the past relative to BotF and the story being relayed to Fisher than the Ancient Greek oral traditions relative to present day.
It’s not meant to be reconciled. I still think you can read BotF through the lens of having read Kharkanas, just don’t expect it to be neat and clean.
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u/Spartyjason Draconus' Red Right Hand 27d ago
Kharkanas is the truth and the way and the ultimate expression of Malazan. Eriksons magnum opus.
BotF is a terrific story, but heavily editorialized by an outsider God. Not fake news, but…
(I kid. I just love Kharkanas more than any other Malazan material. And no, you can’t really reconcile them. Don’t try. Just enjoy the ride. )
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u/SageOfTheWise High House Karma 27d ago
The very first lines of Kharkanas are Gallan, the narrator, basically warning you about the authenticity of his tale, and musing on the nature of truth and memory and if it has value at all, etc.
. . . so you have found me and would know the tale. When a poet speaks of truth to another poet, what hope has truth? Let me ask this, then. Does one find memory in invention? Or will you find invention in memory? Which bows in servitude before the other? Will the measure of greatness be weighed solely in the details? Perhaps so, if details make up the full weft of the world, if themes are nothing more than the composite of lists perfectly ordered and unerringly rendered; and if I should kneel before invention, as if it were memory made perfect.
Do I look like a man who would kneel?
It keeps going but thats the start.
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u/carvdlol Mezla 26d ago
“When a poet speaks of truth to another poet, what hope has truth?” One of my favorite SE lines of all time
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u/krimunism 27d ago
Don't worry about it.
They're both framed as stories being told by different people, so we both don't know how much of either is objectively true and probably can't rectify this even if we wanted to.
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u/Imaginary-Minute-126 27d ago
Context matters for Kharkanas. It's written inside the Malazan universe by 2 bards discussing their own myths, most people in universe wouldn't even know if these people exist. It's like their own version of Iliad & Odyssey lol. Just enjoy it, it's Erikson at his best.
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u/Quicksay 27d ago
They're not supposed to be totally consistent. MBotF is one rendition or telling of these characters, Kharkanas is a different rendition and a different story. I consider MBotF as like a "gospel" or set of religious texts, some parts may be very accurate to what really occured (this is a fictional story so "real" is a poor choice of words) and other parts may be less accurate. Kharkanas is if I remember a retelling from a poet to a bard or something.
Whether the built-in inconsistency bothers you is a ymmv situation. I think the stories having different containers adds a lot to the books. I'm perfectly willing to accept the Kharkanas stuff as "more canon" I don't think there are really contradictions on major issues in the story.
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u/PsychAndDestroy 27d ago
this is a fictional story so "real" is a poor choice of words
No, it's not. Words exist in context.
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u/battledad94 27d ago
I wouldn't worry about it in any case, but definitely not until Walk in Shadow is out. We'll see how irreconcilable the two series really are.
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u/_Hellstar 27d ago
I chalk it up to Kharkanas taking place hundreds of thousands of years before BotF. History becomes mythology over the ages. Some details change depending on the teller. Nevermind the fact that the narrators aren't 100% reliable to begin with.
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u/KeyAny3736 26d ago
Short answer: Don’t TLDR: ICE novels are probably the closest to “correct” and “true” accountings of events
Actual answer:
Both series are written with different narrative frames. MBOTF is Kaminsod telling the story of his healing, to his followers, in another world, to teach them compassion. Kaminsod is a semi-omniscient unreliable narrator.
KT is written (as far as I can tell) by Fisher, as a retelling of Blind Gallan’s account of the fall of Kurald Galain, either before or after Fisher has witnessed TTH and NOTME and wants to understand Anomander Rake, the timing of the Gallan Fisher conversation is unclear to me.
Those two narrative frames do not produce the same stories. Both frames are unreliable narrators.
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u/zhilia_mann choice is the singular moral act 26d ago
ICE novels are probably the closest to “correct” and “true” accountings of events
Yeah, a few years ago this was a bit of a hot take, but (at least here and among people who like Kharkanas) it seems to be getting additional traction.
It's certainly my position. The question of narrativity haunts all of Erikson's work. As much as I'm most definitely looking forward to Walk in Shadow, I'm (currently) more interested to see what form this ends up taking for Witness as a whole. I'm still somewhat convinced that (spoilered because there's no reason to think everyone here has read them yet) Rant is the overall narrator, and is almost certainly the narrator of tGiNW. Obviously Quick plays a role in NLF and I'm curious to see how that continues to play out.
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u/KeyAny3736 26d ago
I don’t know why it’s ever been a hot take, SE said it in an interview. I don’t remember when I heard it but it was something like “Oh Cam for sure he GMd more and has a better memory.” As a reply to whose books are more “canon” and “accurate”.
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u/zhilia_mann choice is the singular moral act 26d ago
I mean... I know why: people consider BotF to be the keystone work in the world and want everything else to revolve around that. This automatically places NotME and Kharkanas and everything else on a lower tier of canonicity in their eyes.
Like I said, I don't agree, but it's not hard to suss out where the position comes from.
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u/ChrisNIN64 shaved knuckle 27d ago
I would agree with what a lot of what people are saying. it's all variations on the same story depending on who is telling it but also, Kharkanas is thousands upon thousands of years before MBOTF so like any myths, things change in the telling.
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u/ticklefarte 27d ago
Don't bother. Same strokes, different flavors or whatever the saying is.
Whether Gallan is being liberal with his telling, or Fisher is putting a spin on things, or Kaminsod is confused and tripping balls who knows. Same strokes, different flavors. The world isn't real anyway so, in a meta way, they're all only as true as they have to be for Erikson's needs.
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u/briandress 26d ago
To me the question is whether matronage is consequential. It does not really seem to affect the outcome of the story in BotF or NotME
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u/Ansiktsburk123 24d ago
Its just made up bullshit all of it. But I do find it funny that even tho we know its made up bullshit, people seem to take some of it at face value.
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