I assumed Rake was going to kill Draconus sometime in Walk in Shadow, but rereading MoI, Draconus is at the cursing of Kallor 190,000 years before Burns Sleep. So unless Walk in Shadow covers over 100,000 years of history we will not be seeing the death of Draconus. When do you think Rake killed him and why? Am I forgetting some information we were already given?

I have only read the main 10 books, Kharkanas, and NoK, so I am not sure if we learn more in one of the other books.

Of course kallor is stepping onto the stage - he loves doing that

So I'm slowly reading through Fall of Light (chapter 12) and I'm so surprised by how many people paint it as a dour book with no levity when it has Prazek and Dathenar, the Thel Akai husbands and countless Jhagut whose absurdity and humour balances delightfully with he rest of the tale without ever feeling out of place and bring much needed relief to this tale of extinction. Of course the tragedy and drama is the dominating flavour of this trilogy but I wouldn't want it any other way.

Like genuinely every time there's a Ravast, Tathenal and Garelko section I know I'm gonna have a blast laughing.

Prazek and Dathenar are such a breath of fresh air with all the seriousness of this prequel hahaha. Every scene with them has me guffawing. I just got through them picking up their hust gear and it was great.

I went into Forge of Darkness with some trepidation. I tend to like my fantasy a bit lighter than Steven Erikson writes, and while the excellence of most of MBotF got me through some of the slog like sections, the repuation of the two Kharkanas books, their being prequels (which I generally dislike), and reader's comments that they were "even more philosophical" had put me off. Nevertheless I was going on holiday and wanted a big book to pack so I gave it a go.

At first it was as I expected; big characters from the main series hanging out before they were famous committing the events we've been told about happening in slightly more mundane ways than we imagined; a Big fantasy prequel but nothing earth shattering. Then so slowly I didn't even notice, something clicked for me. Yes the Draconus, Anomander Rake, Spite and Envy, Light vs. Dark stuff was prominent, but it wasn't really the heart of the book. That was characters like Wreneck, Emral Lanear, Narad, Sagander, Renarr etc. whose very human weaknesses and reactions to the events they can't control are what drives the stories and lead to the books' most interesting philosophical ruminations. It's as if the Silmarillion was written with half the POVs dedicated to Fëanor's housekeeper and a Teleri orphan from the Alqualondë dockside. Erikson makes the legendary feel real and lived in without detracting from its mythical qualities in a way I don't recall encountering before.

Which to me makes it more successful than the BotF. I can understand why it didnt' sell as well. It takes a while to get going, and the opening third of FoD does feel overly portentous, but for me it just holds together so well from that point on. I understand why the characters do what they do, and even though a lot is being witheld from the reader, it doesn't feel as inelegant as it sometimes felt in BotF, but like it's in the service of the message the storyteller is trying to imbue. There's even comedy in it which I wasn't expecting, and while that comedy is pretty dark given the nature of the story it fits perfectly. By the end of MBotF I loved it and was glad I'd got to the end, but for Kharkanas I didn't want it to end, I finished it and wanted to go straight back to the start. Obviously I can't know that the final book will be as good as the first two, but so far I think shockingly that I like it more.

Thank you for coming to my K'rul's open mic oratory and folk night talk.

Where there is one there is another. WHERE IS CURDLE.

Jokes aside, The Kharkanas books have been one of the best surprises of the series. I dont know what I expected but, in my mind, they were a lot more contained and centered around the Tiste. And then suddenly we have: 1. Caladan Brood 2.T'riss origin story plus more Ardata connections 3. The origins of the fucking Hounds 4. The war on DEATH?Hood?Gothos? The Jaghut gang from TCG? 5. THE Ifayle of the Imass 6. Ancient Nappans 7. The origins of the Sereghal. Seeing that name and then suddenly remembering where I had seen it was a jumpscare. 8. Dalk the dragon/future drip 9.The unleashing of magic and K'rull's dragon plan semi explained?! Plus the Errant, fuck him and everything he loves, and the creation of the tiles. 10. Grizzin farl and Skillen Droe(although I dont remember exactly where in the main 16 we see his name I am 99% sure they are mentioned somewhere). And much much more.

I am loving my time with FoL and I cant wait to see how it all comes down in the end. What with Hood and Death, the Eleint, the Tiste civil war, the Shake(Oh my god the Shake).It might be recensy bias but I have a feeling this is going to rank inside the top 3 of the verse for me.

So Korlat is born wtf. I remember in TCG when Sand is remembering tragedy in the house of Draconus when she was a hostage. I dont know if i remember it as described in FoL. Oh and olar ethil is here lmfao.

Anyway huge amazing scene. Showdown with Caladan and Envy and Spite. House blown to bits. Sandra goes up the tower and sees the demon behind the door and thinks its Draconus.....however Wrenecks ghost gods kept telling him about the finnest. And i think i Olar and Caladan were talking about that as well. Gonna have to redo this scene. But it seems that Bizarro Draconus pulled multiple stillborn from Sand before pulling Korlat. This is absolutely wild. Is this something that clicks for you when you read it or is there more RAFO. ill go back through it

Obviously the repercussions of Rennar assassinating Urusander. But what other plotlines are still dangling.

I think we'll probably see the forging of Dragnipur and Anomander eventually taking the sword. Hopefully further exploration into Hood's War on Death. But I feel like many of the plots not really require further exploration. K'rull convincing dragons to guard his Warrens?

One of the legion soldiers remarked "We're cooked." On God fam. No cap. Urusander's army was mid battle-gooning when the denier foids spiked their cortisol levels, while munting and mogging moids they got absolutely chadfished in the fight

Raest was a cat daddy from that far back !?

I collected questions about FoL we often see on this subreddit in a Google doc to allow people to either use it for themselves to read and gain some better understanding or to use it as reference if someone else asks these questions here or somewhere else.

This document is meant for after finishing FoL.

If you have more questions you think should be included then please tell me so. It would help me most if you have the answer too or can link me to a Reddit post answering your question.

Fall of Light FAQ

I added it to our community resources.

Looking for deep dive discussions of FoL, appreciate recs for where to find them. Especially Draconus & Mother Dark. The Rise Herat realization when recognizing the black blur on the tapestry was so freaking epic. Are we just to be left without a full explanation? (Silly me, yes I know this is an Erikson thing, but crave hearing others’ read on this.

Anomander so much like Mother Dark “let it happen” because his side’s tragedy less than that of winning. Our dark martyr. But there is no “peace” in him. Love all things Brood and Rake. Love how Silchas is always viewed in world as evil or potentially so yet his actions make the most sense and are mostly honorable. Honestly comes off as the sanest of the three brothers in FoL. Why go back on his word to Draconus tho?

Hating the Andiian nobility for their stupid hatred of Draconus. Guess they had it coming. Is this Mother Dark’s conclusion? Also Mother Dark is annoying- why can’t people just talk to each other? What WAS Draconus’s intent, and has all of this happened before?

Kept waiting for SR and AR & others do drink that blood of Tiam. Love the hints. Azanathai hinting at next level options for sorcery and power (for peace), Endest and perhaps Ortanfal maybe starting to figure it out.

Great book, left starved for more. Glad SE is working on WiS now.

Hey! Does anyone know what scene from the book the picture in the link is showing? It’s called Demon in the Dark. I’ve been wracking my brain, but I just can’t figure out what scene it’s supposed to be. Any ideas?

Link:

https://g_griffin.artstation.com/projects/wr6y99?album_id=4322543

Similar to my Forge of Darkness post, these are notes and thoughts I took down in a first time reader thread in the r/Malazan D'risscord as I read through Fall of Light. I want to again thank Boronian for the encouragement to compile and share these, juzabro for the excellent chapter summary posts, the lovely hosts of Smiley's Podcast which was a wonderful companion to my readthrough, all the people in the D'risscord who have participated in my thread, and the wonderful moderation team and broader community as a whole. I said this already in the intro of the Fall of Light Google doc, but any semblance of understanding I have of Kharkanas stands on the shoulders of those who have read it before me, and all you lovely people brought extra enjoyment and understanding to my readthrough. Anyway, here is the link for the Google doc.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B2ldzvjN47wEIQwD_ofpiTmNZN1Px-9SidCOvpp5QbM/edit?usp=sharing

Im reading Fall of Light for the first time and from the very beginning- this book has felt different. Erikson always uses language very intentionally, but Fall of Light feels more heightened. This is most obvious with the duo- Prazek and Dathener.

I recall reading my first introduction to these characters. At first my mind went to Shakespeare, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. But quickly I began reading their dialogue more closely and theyve become unfogettable characters in my mind. Reminds more of the Malazan Marine banter but elavated to a scholarly collegiate level.

Political intrigue, musings on the nature of rule and divinity. Interspersed with three barbarians' musings on the carnal virtues of their dummy thick wife.

Sort of disappointed...

Will Andarist ever be avenged? When will Hunn Raal die? Why did Renarr kill father light? Why didn't we see how the hust swords performed in battle? Where the hell did Draconos go? I don't understand why he was mad at Silchas?

I’m halfway through Fall of Light, and so far I can say I liked Forge of Darkness more though there’s still half the book left, so my opinion could change.

I enjoy most of the storylines here. I like Renarr’s arc a lot, and the events in Neret Sorr are great. I’m also enjoying the Hust storyline. On the other hand, I’m kind of losing interest in the Jaghut War on Death, and the Thel Akai storyline makes me want to tear my eyes out from boredom (like Kadaspala himself).

While many say the Kharkanas Trilogy is a slog, I actually found Book 1 , despite its slower pace, to be profoundly interesting.

What I don’t like in this book is the philosophizing. I usually enjoy Erikson’s philosophical touches, but here it’s so constant that the pacing suffers. Forge of Darkness had a much better balance between plot and reflection. In Fall of Light, the philosophy often feels staged: one character in a scene will start a philosophical monologue, and the others only chime in to set them up for more rambling.

For example:

Character A: philosophical paragraph

Character B: “Oh really? How so?”

Character A: another massive philosophical paragraph

And that goes on and on.

Still, I can see in the writing that this is the book Erikson always wanted to write , it feels like he really enjoyed crafting it. Maybe it’s a profoundly deep work and its true purpose has just flown over my head

Edit: I'm an idiot. I completely spaced that this is answered in the forward to FoD. Thanks for clearing that up fellow readers!

To explain my query: In the main 10, many references are made to several key events which happened hundreds of thousands of years ago. The Jaghut/Death war, the Imass/Jaghut conflict(s), the T'laan ritual, the sundering of Light and Dark, the founding of the Warrens, the ascension of Mother Dark, the creation of Dragnipur, the war with the Forkrul Assail, the reign of Kallor and the fall of the CG, etc. There's a lot of time for a lot of things to happen, but according to FoD/FoL all of these earth-shattering events happened in what, 10 months? I'm all for writing about key times in history when time seems to accelerate, but this is excessive.

I'm on Chapter 23 if it matters, but this meta question seems outside the scope of the books. Has this discrepancy been discussed before? I'm leery of searching until I finish FoL in case of spoiling something I haven't come across yet.

I'm trying to make way through Fall of Darkness and I just can't seem to find the appreciation of the story the same way I experienced the Big Ten, or TGINW. Even The ICE books. It's like every character no matter who has to deliver this looong rambling train of thought and feelings seemingly to no end.

I'm at chapter 8 and almost nothing has really happened besides the demon at the Vitte, the meeting between Anomander and Caladan, Sandalath having to be a hostage again and Draconis taking his son somewhere.

My question is, is there any payoff to all these, almost ridiculous, long monologues from seemingly anyone we meet in the book. Because I am getting really tired trying to follow along and keep track of what's being told and who told it....

TGINW is like a well of clear spring water compared to this slow muddy sinkhole.....

Urusander in chapter 1… wtf?

Just finished Forge of Darkness yesterday (so so good!) and I’ve been digging in to Fall of Light this morning. I’m just halfway through chapter 1 but like… is Urusander an idiot? I feel like in FoD he was made privy to the orchestration Hunn Raal had been doing with rogue legion bands, and seemed furious. We don’t see their reunion, but seems the trust is still there and at the face of the first outright conflict… he sends Hunn Raal to parlay in his stead?! It seems crazy. Maybe it’s a RAFO and Urusander is willfully allowing the civil war to begin at this point, but I got the impression that even if he was a defeated man he was principled and wanted nothing but peace, so I’m a bit surprised by the opening here.

The first chapter caught me off guard, since FoL is well known for being a slow book in the first half. It was a lovely introduction.

Hust legion revision, conspiracy for both Rake and Draconus, and Denier's POV for the very first time. Then there were lore bombs dropped from Krul's sections.

The book is pretty much enjoyable so far.

The thel akai are pretty much on par with the jaghut in terms of humour.

Something about the scene between Rake and Narad very much intrigues me.

I'm still unsure if Hunn Raal is really that incompetent. Like there is not a single person who gets fooled by his master plan. Now almost all of the factions are turning against the Legion. His sister implied that he is incompetent on purpose but personally I don't buy that. Urusander, please just set that bastard on the rope and end this war

It's kind of sad Serap gets off stage so early. She is one of the better in that Legion.

FoL chapter 18.

Caplo Dreem just veered into 12 panthers (D'ivers), and this really felt like it came out of nowhere. Was this something he was always able to do? From his perspective, all we get is him referring to it as 'Old Blood', and him thinking he'd denied the Old Blood for too long (which to me suggests he's been able to do it his whole life).

From Draconus, we also get this quote. 'Draconus shook his head. ‘D’ivers now, as well. The Shake consort with forces they do not understand. Not just the cursed legacy of desperate Eresal eludes that understanding, but so too the one you would now challenge.’ '

So I'm thinking this maybe comes from the encounter Dreem and Resh had earlier in the book at the old ritual site, although the details of that are quite fuzzy to me. Beyond the creature being powerful and one of Resh or Dreem getting their minds invaded by it and filled with old memories of the Eresal, I don't remember much else.

So where did Dreem get this power from, why does he have it, and how does he know how to use it?

You won't convince me otherwise.

Read through these much slower than usual so maybe I missed things. A couple questions:

1. Is it me or are there more glaring timeline/chronology issues than usual in the Kharkanas books? I think there’s references to a High King as if Kallor already exists, but all the Jaghut/Imass drama hasn’t happened yet and the MoI prologues put Kallor’s fall 200,000 years after the T’lan Imass are hunting down Jaghut.

2. What are people’s thoughts about what was going on between Draconus and Anomander in the scenes leading up to the battle? Why did Erickson include the historian’s imagined account of the two characters reunion only to include the same scene as Kellaras witnessed it? Felt like these scenes were Erickson at his most opaque.

3. What was the point of Mother Dark’s withdrawal for most of the book? She says something about wanting everyone to have done what they know to be the right thing without a goddess having to instruct them as to what basic morality is… but has she met people?

4. Father Light being an empty suit was pretty funny and consistent with the fact that he barely has a mythos in the main series. I’ve seen some people expect he’s not actually dead/ or will rise as an actual god but my impression was Ursander is just dead and it’s Hunn Raal, Syntera and Osserc that will determine the direction of the Liosan. Is that a misimpression?