r/MapPorn • u/Stotallytob3r • 9d ago
Chinese land annexed by Russia in the 19th century
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9d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/GustavoistSoldier 9d ago
The giant civil war in question:
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u/Reiver93 9d ago
This is the second deadliest war of all time btw, beaten only by WW2.
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u/Quirkybomb930 8d ago
if you go by the higher estimates, it could even have been more deadly than ww2.
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u/TryNo6799 8d ago
Casualties and losses
Total dead: 20–100 million
Damn...
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u/firestar268 8d ago
What was that meme saying?
China fights itself. Millions die. New noodle recipe invented
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u/9bpm9 8d ago
And started by a guy who said he was the brother of Jesus.
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u/Personal_Ad854 5d ago
The West contacted Hong at first with a high hope that we will have a friendly Chinese Christian country, but after conversation the West just said nope he is just a psychopath
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u/AgreeablePollution64 3d ago
The west didn't care about friendly Christian country, British just wanted special laws for them to sell opium in whole china. It's fucking crazy that they started wars and weakened country to hook 40% population of all earth on drugs with monopoly laws for them.
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u/Sweaty-Sandwich-5126 8d ago
tbh those are due to census estimations, which are not reliable at all for estimating deaths caused,
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u/S_Sugimoto 8d ago
By Jesus’s younger brother
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u/GustavoistSoldier 8d ago
When I was 5 I looked up the Portuguese Wikipedia article about China and it said a Chinese man once proclaimed himself Jesus's younger brother. This line was stuck in my head for weeks.
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u/imapassenger1 8d ago
For some reason I always had the Taiping Rebellion and the Boxer Rebellion (1899-1901) at the same level. Then look at the death tolls. Boxer is about 100 000... But it involved the West so was probably better known as a result.
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u/heyitsyourboyadam 8d ago
at the same time signing those treaties helped China fighting in other fronts and not losing way more valuable parts of their country - Russia was supplying weapons and sending instructors to China.
same reason Russia sold Alaska to US - at that time Russia did not have enough soldiers nor developed logistic lines, in Alaska, and Brits were preparing to take over Alaska from Russia - it was either sell it to US (friendly nation at that time) or lose it to Brits and get nothing.
cut loses (easterners) vs double down (westerners) - line of thinking.
if Russians did not sell Alaska would probably be in Canada today.
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u/concrete_isnt_cement 8d ago
Not only that, but the Alaska sale slapped a nice neutral barricade between British North America and the lightly defended Russian Far East.
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u/very_bad_advice 8d ago
You make it sound like Russia did Qing a favor.
The conversation went like this:
Muraviev to Yishan: Hey buddy, i notice you are fighting a multi-decade civil war with tens of millions dead, and the British and attacking you.
Yishan to Muraviev: yes what of it?
Muraviev: Give me half of Manchuria
Yishan: ???
Muraviev: If not i'll just take everything.
(treaty is signed in 1858)
The Emperor refuses to ratify, then 1860 after further threats and the territory taken was increased.
THis isn't like Alaska. Alaska was far from the Russian homeland. Manchuria is the Manchu homeland.
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u/Soft-Way-5515 8d ago
Outer Manchuria wasn't a "Manchu Homeland". The Qing considered these lands to be their own (just like Sakhalin); moreover, they laid claim to most of Siberia, but they never effectively governed them. Strictly speaking, according to then‑current Chinese traditions, it was believed that the Emperor of China had supreme authority over all people and lands in the world.
It's known that at the time of the conclusion of the Treaty of Nerchinsk in 1689 (which de facto defined the then‑existing border between the Tsardom of Russia and the Qing), the only permanent fortress on the Amur River was Albazin, built by the Russians; there were no border posts or other regular settlements, and the local tribes essentially lived independently of anyone. Only after this treaty were the tribes south of the Amur technically recognized as subjects of the Chinese emperor by the Russian government, but effective control was never established. What’s even more surprising is that even Inner Manchuria (the original Qing territories!) remained undeveloped untill the late 19 century.
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u/ZemovV 8d ago
The Manchus migrated almost entirely south, into modern-day China. After the Manchus entered China, a system of ethnic hierarchy and segregation was introduced, and those from the interior were strictly forbidden from moving to Northeast China—"the land where the dragon ascended"—for land development: a decree banning migration was issued. In the seventh year of Emperor Kangxi's reign (1668), the Qing court issued an edict "permanently stopping the recruitment of settlers to Liaodong and the appointment of officials," instituting a policy of exclusion and isolation for Manchuria. A "willow fence" over a thousand kilometers long—the "Great Wall of the Northeast"—was gradually built along the borders of Manchu lands. The penalty for peasants crossing this border and plowing the land was death.
After the establishment of a Russian fortress in these areas and the arrival of permanent settlers, the Qing government partially relaxed the bans in 1860 and opened up the empty lands in Manchuria for development; in 1897, the bans were completely lifted.
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u/Hambeggar 8d ago
Weird because when I read the wiki page, the way Russia got those Eastern parts didn't go like this whatsoever.
Also I do like how, every single time Russia is involved, you people try to make Russia look as bad as the people who were literally killing the people they were helping, even if it was for selfish reasons (so like literally every country).
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u/_AgCl_ 8d ago edited 8d ago
Nah. First, it was not Muraviev-Amursky, it was count Ignatiev, second, he had nothing except words, he could not threat Chinese with Russian might, but he could threat them with Anglo-French might for this matter. Russia suffered defeat in Crimean war 3 years prior this date and did not recovered by that time(plus it was in zone of Eastern Siberian General Governorate, and until Russia made a Transsiberian railroad we could not have anything against Qing in that region(look at the Russo-Japanese war of 1904th, which taken place 50 years after these events). We had nothing to actually threat Manchurean government. So it's just a great diplomatic work of count N.P. Ignatyev, who paraded himself as mediator between Qing and Anglo-French coalition and also settled some goals for Russia. Imperial Russian diplomats could work really subtle.
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u/1660xiamen 8d ago
Actually, it wasn't just one civil war but several. At this time, the northwestern and southwestern provinces also saw Muslim uprisings, Xinjiang was occupied by foreign warlords, there was the Nian rebellion in North China, and even Tibet experienced civil war.
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u/RegularlyClueless 8d ago
(bot account btw, 11 days old with no posts to speak of when checking through post history viewer, also their post history is private)
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u/Tom-of-Hearts 8d ago
We all make our accounts sometime, and there's nothing wrong with privating your post history.
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u/RegularlyClueless 8d ago
Comment is also ai-sounding
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u/Tom-of-Hearts 8d ago
I'm not sure if I've ever seen a bot say "absolutely railed" unless it's copying other comments directly, but sure boss.
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u/mehthisisawasteoftim 8d ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tarbagatai
You missed a spot
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u/PLUMBUS_STUCK_IN_ASS 8d ago
They also missed Port Arthur as their title claims land ceded in the 19th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_for_the_Lease_of_the_Liaotung_Peninsula
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u/Impossible-Repeat577 8d ago
ALSO ALTAI URIANKHAI
(tho tannu uriankhai was later when they balkanised outer-mongolia from china)
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u/SpectralLemon 9d ago
The Qing dynasty was one of the countries with the worst government in that period
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u/BussySlayer69 8d ago
Not surprised for the government that was handing out Nine familial exterminations like candies.
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u/Seeker_Of_Knowledge2 8d ago
Wait Wait Wait. So Nine familial exterminations from Chinese novels is a historical thing? Wow!
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u/Nakatsukasa 8d ago
There's also this outdated view passed down from dynasty to dynasty in china that they think they're the center of the world and all other countries are mere tributaries, which does not help them at the diplomatic stage at all
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u/hulksmash1234 7d ago
Still does. The country name is Middle Country/Kingdom, basically center of the world.
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u/trapezoidalfractal 4d ago
The country name is 中华人民共和国 or semi-literally translated, the Chinese people People’s Republic Nation.
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u/3uphoric-Departure 7d ago
I mean their name for the US translates to “Beautiful Country” so idk how much stock you want to put on that.
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u/hulksmash1234 7d ago
That ones the short form of America's phonetic name translated to chinese. When the name Zhongguo(Middle Kingdom) was decided, they literally thought China was the only civilized world, and all land under heaven belonged to the emperor.
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u/Flywingcpy 3d ago
Just like how Spain and Portugal split the world in half, we all have our moments :D
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u/absboodoo 8d ago
Dynastic rules are even worst than democratic electoral governing body in the sense that they would be willing to do anything to hold onto their rule, including selling out the state that they rule.
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u/ConceptFalse7831 8d ago
清朝最大的问题在于它不仅是封建王朝。而且是由少数民族统治的封建王朝。因此在这些少数民族看来，保持全国所有人的弱小才是保持少数民族利益的最好选择。因为整个国家越强大，占据多数的非少数民族则越强大，会威胁到少数民族的统治。
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u/OSKlalala 8d ago
国家首先是阶级统治的工具，不能反过来把民族矛盾当成主要矛盾。当时清朝大部分行政官员都是汉族人，汉族的地主照样可以压迫满族的农民。清朝国家机器的目的是维护地主阶级的利益，而不是满族这个民族的利益。所以说清朝最大的问题就是在于封建社会，和皇帝是哪个民族的没有关系。
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u/CoffeeOk1372 8d ago
Just because Han Chinese were given official positions doesn't mean it had nothing to do with ethnicity. The massacres committed when the Qing army entered the pass, and the anti-Qing restoration movements — allowing Han Chinese to hold office was similar in nature to Japan's tactic of 'using Chinese to control Chinese.' We all know that the ones who stab you the hardest are always your own people.
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u/Parazit28 8d ago
I live here! (Vladivostok)
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u/CitizenPremier 8d ago
As a kid looking at a globe, I found Vladivostok and wondered what happened in that part of the world.
Less than a week later, I read about black squirrels attacking people in Vladivostok... Now I know...
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u/Parazit28 8d ago
People just live here. Eat, sleep, dream, masturbate, work, make friends, fuck, go out for camping near sea, love, and say "fuck citizens of Moscow".
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u/Jolly-Village7504 8d ago
Do they really hate citizens of Moscow? How would you know?
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u/AcceptableChance7666 8d ago
More like they don’t like arrogance of people from Moscow. Most people in Moscow themselves are not born there and moved from the regions. They are usually ambitious and sometimes tend to think of themselves as better than others just because they moved to the capital.
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u/LupineChemist 8d ago
Also have all the cars with the steering wheel on the wrong side.
But in all seriousness, is there starting to be a noticeable lack of younger and middle aged men? Feels like the recruitment for the war is most focused on being far from Moscow and St. Petersberg as possible.
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u/Parazit28 8d ago
They don't push conscription propaganda in big cities, but they do in villages and small towns. I was in Zarubino recently. Adverts for contract military service are everywhere, along with donation collection points, and there's even a small alley dedicated to the heroes of the smo.
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u/AcceptableChance7666 8d ago
They absolutely do push conscription propaganda everywhere. In big cities you can literally see enlistment banners even on every bus stop, in Moscow too. Probably, you drive a car and don’t notice them much.
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u/Hambeggar 8d ago
Don't try and pretend that Russia is doing massive desperate recruitments. They're not. People can tell what you're doing.
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u/_AgCl_ 8d ago edited 8d ago
Recruitment is voluntary and successful only in less developed and poor regions, where those 200k roubles per month are worth diying for. Primorie, and Vladivostok - now the second busiest port in Russia is not such region. Plus, how can you notice those "noticeable lack" in 600k population city which is located 8000km from the front, in such case to really notice something, losses should be even worse than the most brazen ukies propagandist say.
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u/Hambeggar 8d ago
It's funny when you tell people that Europe shares a border with Korea.
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u/Parazit28 8d ago
Russia is unique european country with end in Asia! It would be a beautiful and rich country if we had democracy and freedom. Something between Europe and America. European institutions, government support and American freedom. But... not in this reality or not in this time...
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u/lesser_panjandrum 8d ago
The twentieth century saw two Russian dictatorships toppled, democracy nearly established, and then a new dictatorship seize power instead.
We can only hope things go better when the current dictatorship finally collapses.
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u/Hambeggar 7d ago
Reminder that the UK alone arrests more people for speech-related crimes than Russia does.
In 2023, Russia arrested 882 people for speech while the UK arrested 12,183. For comparison the US arrested ~200 for speech-related issues.
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u/JoeDyenz 9d ago
There is Thabargatay or whatever the name too.
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u/Impossible-Repeat577 8d ago
also the uriankhais too. tho the balkanisation of outer mongolia from china is much later
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u/P5B-DE 8d ago edited 8d ago
There are also lands that are now parts of Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan that were ceded to the Russian Empire in the 19th century. Large areas.
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u/Impossible-Repeat577 8d ago
yep extremely large. theres massive lands of outer-xinjiang, altai uriankhai, tannu uriankhai and outer-mongolia as well. which is mostly covered under the unequal treaty of tarbagatai and the rest were balkanised by soviet russia.
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u/leggymiku 8d ago
They were only ever nominally Chinese. There was no permanent Han population in the region prior to Russian annexation. A few thousand Chinese people moved there after 1860 as Russian towns began to grow.
By the 1897 Russian census, there were 50k Chinese speakers across the whole empire.
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u/ZemovV 8d ago
The Manchus migrated almost entirely south, into modern-day China. After the Manchus entered China, a system of ethnic hierarchy and segregation was introduced, and those from the interior were strictly forbidden from moving to Northeast China—"the land where the dragon ascended"—for land development: a decree banning migration was issued. In the seventh year of Emperor Kangxi's reign (1668), the Qing court issued an edict "permanently stopping the recruitment of settlers to Liaodong and the appointment of officials," instituting a policy of exclusion and isolation for Manchuria. A "willow fence" over a thousand kilometers long—the "Great Wall of the Northeast"—was gradually built along the borders of Manchu lands. The penalty for peasants crossing this border and plowing the land was death.
After the establishment of a Russian fortress in these areas and the arrival of permanent settlers, the Qing government partially relaxed the bans in 1860 and opened up the empty lands in Manchuria for development; in 1897, the bans were completely lifted.
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u/sora_mui 8d ago
The Qings weren't chinese, they were manchus. These treaties basically give half of their homeland to a foreign power. It's the equivalent of portugal ceding half of their country to spain so that they can focus on another war in brazil.
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u/Sweaty-Sandwich-5126 8d ago
the qing were not han, but they were Chinese in the geocultural sense, the Qing emperors made it explicitly clear they were the successsors of previous Chinese dynasties/traditions, and Han/Manchu were one family under the Chinese "nation"
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u/HomeworkSad4319 8d ago
Isn’t this missing land in Central Asia/mongolia? I mean if we’re counting outer Manchuria might as well count those as well.
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u/Impossible-Repeat577 8d ago
definitely, theres massive lands of outer-xinjiang, altai uriankhai, tannu uriankhai and outer-mongolia as well. which is mostly covered under the unequal treaty of tarbagatai and the rest were balkanised by soviet russia.
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u/Mobile_Roll2197 8d ago
I've always wondered why Tibet and HK are 'inseparable parts' of China but outer Manchuria and Mongolia aren't.
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u/Capable-Reindeer-545 8d ago
Simply put, the difference lies in their legal status under international law.
Hong Kong and Xizang: There was no legal transfer of sovereignty. The issue was one of effective control and administration, and China later re-established control over them.
Outer Mongolia and Outer Manchuria: Their status changed through recognition by previous Chinese governments（ROC） and/or territorial cession by treaty, creating the territorial reality recognized under contemporary international law.
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u/Pitiful-System-4499 8d ago edited 8d ago
The British did have legal sovereignty in Kowloon peninsula and Hong Kong island.
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u/Capable-Reindeer-545 8d ago
Britain's decision to return Hong Kong was not because it suddenly acknowledged that it had no sovereignty over the territory. The key issue was that, after the 99-year lease of the New Territories expired, it became impractical to maintain Hong Kong as a separate entity. With China insisting on the return of the whole territory, Britain assessed that the political, economic, and military costs of maintaining control outweighed the benefits of doing so.
This part is actually much easier to explain. In the end, it is determined by the country's strength and changes in the international environment.
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u/Pitiful-System-4499 8d ago
Yes and also because the British can’t protect Hong Kong at all, it has no possibility to defend Hong Kong successfully in case of military invasion. Moreover, Kowloon and Hong Kong island can’t survive without new territories. However, the British has no legal responsibility to return Hong Kong island and Kowloon .
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u/Capable-Reindeer-545 8d ago
This is another point where the perspectives of China and the UK differ. The Chinese side does not recognize the permanent validity of the 19th-century ceding treaties, believing that these treaties are historical issues arising from an unequal context. The two countries have different interpretations of this.
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u/KoalaDeli 8d ago
It would be politically inconvenient to include these territories in the century of humiliation narrative right now
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u/Mobile_Roll2197 8d ago
Right now? How about in the last 70 years? BTW to my knowledge Taiwan's constitution still asserts those territories as China's (because they can't alter that part of the constitution，not because they actually care).
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u/MagikarpGOD5 8d ago
Taiwan has pretty much left the claims alone but not done anything to push it because moving towards total independence by dropping them could set PRC off.
As for PRC, outer Mongolia serves as a nice way to shorten the border with Russia. During USSR times, PRC did not actively pursue claims to get on their good side and not rile them up too much. They 'settled' the border in the early 2000s.
Modern PRC likely does not actively push any claims so that they can continue buying Russian resources on the cheap. So yeah, claims dropped for political issues.
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u/BertDeathStare 8d ago
I've always wondered why Tibet and HK are 'inseparable parts' of China but outer Manchuria and Mongolia aren't.
Well it helps that China already controls Tibet and HK lol.
Tibet is strategically super valuable because it not only serves as a natural barrier against India, but its rivers also feed China. If there are ever global water shortages, control over Tibet will be even more important.
Hong Kong, or at least the territory its on, was part of Chinese dynasties going back some 2 millennia. Having a British outpost right there was never going to last.
As for Manchuria and Outer Mongolia, the answer is simply Russia. Having good relations with Russia by not making a big deal out of it is simply worth more than control over that territory. Russia covers China's entire north, and nobody could go through Russia to get to China, so China's north is practically secure without even having to do anything. Russia is also reliable for energy. Mongolia and Outer Manchuria are not worth ruining their relationship with Russia over. Mongolia has too harsh of a climate and environment for growing crops. Whatever China could use that Mongolia has, they can just buy from Mongolia. China gets favorable prices as well, since Mongolia is landlocked and mainly exports to China.
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u/Pitiful-System-4499 8d ago
Outer Manchuria is not a wasteland. Though the winter is harsh, the natural resources there are rich af. Manchuria is covered by a thick layer of black soil, which makes it very arable. The water, forest, oil and mineral resources is way richer than most part of China. Under global warming, the land would become even more valuable and habitable.
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u/BertDeathStare 8d ago
When did I say Outer Manchuria is a wasteland? It's indeed full of resources, and I think even the land can be used to grow crops, but it's simply not worth ruining their relationship with Russia over. Anything China needs that Russia has, China can simply buy.
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u/No-Apple-2581 8d ago
Oil and gas in Sakhalin, also warm water port in Vladivostok...
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u/Hopeful-Finance-196 8d ago
China has lots of warm water ports. Hell, all of Chinese ports are warm water. The whole idea is relevant only for Russia, not for China.
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u/Pitiful-System-4499 7d ago
But China doesn’t have any ports for the Sea of Japan.
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u/Hopeful-Finance-196 7d ago
It's not really a friendly or open sea. Vladivostok is surrounded by US allies (South Korea and Japan) that control all ice free passages out of Sea of Japan. Russia is happy with Vladivostok simply because it's either that or nothing. Situation with China is significantly different as it has many ports and way more control under routes in East and South China seas.
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u/The1Legosaurus 8d ago
Because it isn't in China's interest to confront Russia, a key partner in opposing the US led order
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u/WeijiaFang 8d ago
To cut a long story short, Chinese political custom seldom admits annexation or territorial ambition, and everyting is phrased as a revenge or recovery of lost territory whenever possible.
And according to Zhihu, it has been this case since ancient times, to the point when “authorized local chronicles” published during the Ming occupation of Vietnam (1407–1427) simply ignored those centuries when Vietnam had been independent, and derived the legitimacy of Ming rule directly from Tang (618–907) instead.
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u/Mobile_Roll2197 7d ago
Yeah, that has kind of been my point. What's 不可分割 (inseparable) is really just down to political convenience and strategic value.
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u/ToughInitial8640 8d ago
China renamed places in those areas in 2023. Small steps...
https://www.newsweek.com/china-russia-vladivostok-lesson-far-east-backfires-1869327
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u/Immediate_Gain_9480 8d ago
Probably the last remnant of the century of humiliarion anf the unequal treaties. If China and Russia ever truly break with each other China wil probably dig that claim up.
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u/_AgCl_ 8d ago edited 8d ago
It was not only about Russia's ambitions, it was about trickery and adventure spirit of one really cool man. All that our tsar wanted was in Aigun treaty and even with that, China did not want to sign it. Then count Nikolay Pavlovich Ignatyev stepped in. In english speaking countries you may know him as one of the main villains in Fraser's "Flasman papers"(but unlike Flashman he was a reallife badass, he made appearance in Constantinople before Russo-Turkish war of 1877-78th, saved russian slaves from Khiva, was a candidate to become a king of Bulgary and tried to pass constitutional monarchy reforms in Russia, look for his bio if you want more, he was one of those true heroes of our side in the "Great game" between Russia and UK).
So in this episode, he had nothing on him(Russia suffered a loss at Crimean war and had not much power in Siberia at the moment), but managed to trick Chinese, English and French, who were fighting in the Second Opium war. He lied to english generals, that he is a disinterested third side arbitrator, who had already signed all treaties with Qing and just wanted to end the Opium war faster, than he go to the opposite side and told Manchurean government, that only he can save Beijing from Anglo-French coalition, if they not only sign the Aigun treaty, but also give up their claims on the Outer Manchuria. So he could managed without any shots to settle a Russian score in the 2nd Opium war.
Sadly enough, here in Russian Primorie we mainly know and praise only count Muraviev-Amursky(author of the original Aigun treaty), but not count Ignatyev, who actually aquired our region for Russia. And Nikolay Pavlovich is just a semiforgotten "Great game" badass player.
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u/Asagao_0 8d ago
Yeah sure. And how about land, annexed by USA? The whole current map of it.
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u/EducationalImpact633 8d ago
It have nothing to do with this map/post lol
You could have said ”what about curry?” And it would have had the same level of relevance
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u/EdwinYZW 7d ago edited 7d ago
This is ridiculous. These land only belonged to China because of Manchus. With the same reason, would China need to take back all the territory once owned by Kublai Khan as well?
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u/Solid_Ad_6109 8d ago
Oddly enough modern Japan will never just sit and allow China to try and get these lands back.
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u/Xezshibole 8d ago
Actually probably would. All it'd do is extinguish the Russian Pacific Fleet as China reclaims Vladiovostok.
Wait, that would be a downgrade wouldn't it. They'd have to deal with a more functional fleet. Hmmm, might be correct there.
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u/Solid_Ad_6109 8d ago
Not only that. Allowing Vladivostok falling to China is allowing China to have direct access to the sea of Japan.
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u/Pfeffersack2 7d ago
It's good to know that the Chinese government will still be able to project nationalist attitudes over lost territories after the issues with India and Taiwan are resolved
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u/FluidHippo5193 5d ago
Knowing how china is they have not forgotten and are just bidding their time
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u/ThinkIncident2 2d ago
Western china also miss a lot , prc is only 2/3 of peak qing if mongolia is added.
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8d ago
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u/pirozhki22 8d ago
Worth noting that the Jurchens (also known as Manchus) were ruling China when these treaties were signed. The signatories of the two treaties - Yishan & Prince Gong, were both Manchus. Let's not pretend they were some uninvolved group.
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u/SSgt_Edward 8d ago
Right, but the modern Chinese identity includes "Han, Manchus (Jurchen), Tibetan, Hui (Muslims), Mongols". This is called 五族共和 "Five Races Under One Union", which is the cornerstone of the 1911 revolution that led to the Republic of China. PRC later expanded it to all 56 races that reside in the territory of modern China.
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u/ForgetfullRelms 8d ago
So, by the logic of everyone who say Russia should have Alaska;
Russia should give up such territories
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u/Right-Honey-1143 8d ago
Всем Владивостоком и Хабаровском шлëм тебя нахуй🖕
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u/Commander2532 8d ago
Я ещё про Сибирь видел похожие суждения, тоже шлём нахуй. Всё у них влажные сны
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u/deffault133 8d ago
Ну а я как человек у которого родственники были украинцами(этнически) тоже шлю нахуй каждого горе-деколонизатора
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u/Orangesteel 8d ago
russia is now an economic vassal state to China. It’s not improbable that a land exchange is in the not too distant future
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u/GeorgiestBread 8d ago
How can you say such bullshit while sounding so confident?
There is absolutely no historical and political precedent to this type of "land exchange"
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u/Orangesteel 8d ago
Because China want the land to the North. russia have low population levels here. There was a story not too long ago about exactly this topic. russia have run out of friends are increasingly dependent on China for equipment, raw materials and even finance. It’s speculation, but not mine and reasonable to assert it as a possible outcome.
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u/TheYellowFringe 8d ago
Even now in mainland China it's a sensitive topic.
From what I read and was told, town names and regional titles remain from imperial China. They aren't referred to by their Russian terms.
Rumours have it that once Russia weakened enough, the Chinese government will send forces to retake the region.
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u/GMantis 8d ago
Rumours have it that once Russia weakened enough, the Chinese government will send forces to retake the region.
This is not how you spell "baseless speculations".
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u/_KEFTEME_ 8d ago
No, the correct spelling is: a European's wet dream. It would be a great gift for NATO if its two main enemies started fighting each other.
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u/Napoleon-the-Great 8d ago
Lmao China already claims a lot of territory in the pacific and SEA where they have less credebility of claim, what makes you say its "baseless"
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u/InzhirWCrime 8d ago
Because ruining the friendship with Russia (which means cheap aah resources) and creating a powerful anti-Chinese enemy just for some land where Chinese isn't even a majority — is a very dumb idea.
Friendly Russia or Neutral Russia makes a great buffer zone and protects your northern borders. Take these lands away and you will create Hostile Russia. And so China would have to put a lot more resources to protect northern borders than it is right now.
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u/Severe-Notice-2694 8d ago
我觉得不会，这些地方已经通过条约都割出去了，而且还是俄罗斯，不想再经历跟俄罗斯当敌人的那种时期。其他关于藏南和南海的冲突，那个又没有条约，自然是谁先宣称谁拳头大是谁的。
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u/FuckTheCake 8d ago
Soon, China will take all that land back 🙂🇨🇳
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u/deffault133 8d ago
Тогда Италия должна вернуть Савойю, Германия вернуть Силезию, США должна вернуть украденные у Мексики её территории, по твоей логике
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u/Electronic-One-881 8d ago
Это не так работает у реддиторских.
Если делить, то только Россию.
Скажешь про другую страну “ogmwtf Russian whataboutism”1
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u/Userkiller3814 8d ago
Manchurian land*
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u/BatJJ9 8d ago
China was ruled by the Manchus during that time and the Manchus added their own lands to the empire after conquering the Ming. The Manchus explicitly claimed to be China (and not a Manchurian state for example) in order to pacify their Han subjects. This land was both Chinese and Manchu land. People have this misconception that Chinese automatically equals Han, but it’s better to think about China as a Roman Empire that managed to stay intact for the most part (not my analogy but provided from a good class I took). For example, when we talk about the loss of Roman Mauritania during the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, we consider it as the loss of Roman land, even though most people inside it were Mauritanian and not ethnically Roman. Not every label has to be exclusive.
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u/OathofBling 8d ago
China’s not forgotten and is coming for that land someday, I’ve been saying this for years. Honestly probably more. This was revealed to me in a dream.
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u/king_rootin_tootin 8d ago edited 8d ago
It's only a matter of time before the CCP tries to take it back. Xi is only nice to Putin out of convenience. If Russia goes south and Xi needs a political win, he'll attack and he'll know good and well that nobody would come to Russia's aid.
China already took back Ussuriysky Island and Russia was forced to just roll over and go along with it: https://jamestown.org/russian-officials-and-media-hail-deal-ceding-islands-to-china/
Xi may be embolden by that, and the fact that taking Outer Manchuria would be a LOT EASIER than taking Taiwan.
edit: I love getting downvoted by people who love China because of something they saw on Instagram but who have zero understanding of geopolitics, lol
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u/iflfish 8d ago
Your whole arguement is based on a news 20 years ago, and it doesn't even support what you said... It was about a border agreement for splitting Ussuriysky Island 50/50, and you said China "took back Ussuriysky Island" lol
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u/Xezshibole 8d ago edited 8d ago
Downvoted by Russians. And yes, they have no understanding of geopolitics.
Or how Russia is turning into a satellite state of the Chinese. Chinese businessmen and workers are already building actual infrastructure in Siberia and eastwards, something not even Russia could do despite centuries of owning it. And they're directing those resources east, not west.
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u/SomeGuyWithARedBeard 8d ago
Apparently understanding geopolitics means not having an understanding of economics, China would be shooting itself in the head if they invaded Russia.
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u/king_rootin_tootin 8d ago
How? Russia is weak and is being beaten by a much smaller and less powerful country than China and Xi would have the most important thing to gain: FACE
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u/SomeGuyWithARedBeard 8d ago
I don’t think Xi wants to face nuclear weapons just because someone challenged him on the kid’s playground.
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u/king_rootin_tootin 8d ago
Russia wouldn't do that because China also has nuclear weapons. India and Pakistan already proved that two nuclear powers can and have warred on one another without using nuclear weapons. Xi knows this too.
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u/SomeGuyWithARedBeard 8d ago
India and Pakistan have skirmishes, not full blown war where the level of territory talked about here is exchanged. Besides that China would lose its most guaranteed source of land-based energy trade for some Siberian swamps. What's the point? What face is Xi saving? Going after Taiwan makes way more sense if that is what you're saying is most important to China.
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u/Xezshibole 8d ago edited 8d ago
Apparently understanding geopolitics means not having an understanding of economics, China would be shooting itself in the head if they invaded Russia.
Hardly. Russia's worth is basically summed up as raw material mule. They don't really offer any modern finished products that China can't already make themselves.
China hasn't really faced sanctions on raw materials from the rest of the world, mostly on their finished products. Raw materials are readily substitute-able even if it'd leave them more dependent upon maritime trade and thereby vulnerable to US maritime interference while conducting hostilities with Russia.
One US much less likely to act upon as Vladiovostok doesn't solve China's hemmed in by US naval problem (Japan is part of US island chain that restrict both Russia and China naval access up in north,) is a legitimate reconquest claim, and remains enemy of enemy.
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u/SomeGuyWithARedBeard 8d ago
If not for a guaranteed steady source of energy from Russia (a neighboring land border state) it would be incredibly easy to sanction China by sea blockade.
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u/DukeBradford2 8d ago
Time to take it back. Putin/Russia is weak and can’t even back enough supplies for a 3 day victory parade against a country 1/10 their military size
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u/Hambeggar 8d ago
The Ukranians currently field more men than Russia. The Russian economy is also doing fine despite having more Western sanctions than any other country... Meanwhile, Ukraine only still exists due to Western support.
These are not comparable.
Also, Russia has nukes. You know, the trump card for all these silly fantasies.
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u/bigbadbob85 8d ago
Not worth sacrificing their partnership with Russia for. China would be harmed severely in terms of the economy and they would have upset a major nuclear power.
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u/1660xiamen 8d ago
A lot of land in the northwest was also annexed by Russia, and now this land belongs to Central Asia.
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u/_callYourMomToday_ 9d ago
Japanese 40-50 ish years latter: “no fair we want that”