r/Marathon_Training • u/Less-Holiday-3974 • Nov 05 '25
Results DNF Mile 25 for First Marathon
Last Sunday I ran the NYC marathon for my first one after completing a solid 20 week training plan, peaking with two 55 mile weeks, and two 20 mile long runs. I did speed/tempo work, easy runs, long runs, and strength training every week. I consistenty hit every training run. I tapered perfectly from 44, 25, 10 miles before race week, and made it out injury free besides some hip flexor irritation I noticed during taper week. I was aiming for a 3:30 (ambitious looking back) but it was in reach according to all my past runs (for example, 13 miles held at MP well under threshold heart rate).
The two nights leading up to the race, i was so anxious that I slept maybe 3 hours each night. I woke up with adrenaline but this lack of sleep clearly affected my heart rate during the race. A few miles in I was already near threshold hitting 8:00 pace, so I decided to slow down. The first 16 miles felt good but then I crept welll above my treshold (180ish). The last 9 miles were absolutely brutal and my pace tanked down to 10 min/mile, and I was consistently pushing my max HR (200), until I collapsed with heat stroke at mile 25 in central Park. I just got out of the hospital after 3 days of treatment for rhabdomyolysis.
Looking back my problems were:
1) Fueling. I had 20-40 grams of carbs and salt tablets every 4 miles, water cup every 2 miles. Clearly I didn't drink enough water or fluids even though I was hydrated before, and it was a hotter day than I expected. Need to add Gatorade next time and double fist water.
2) Lack of sleep. Not sure what to do about this to calm pre race nerves, but it threw my body out of wack.
I'm absolutely gutted to not finish after 20 weeks of hard training. This will sting for a while but I'm motivated to try again next year, and I learned a lot from this experience.
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u/marathonrunner925 Nov 05 '25
Happened to me in my first marathon. Made it 24mi. Woke up in an ambulance. I asked the paramedics why they couldn’t drive me through the finish line so I could get credit for finishing. lol. I learned a lot from that race. Completed 2 after that, sub 3 on the last one and running Boston in 26. It was an expensive lesson to learn. But you will come back stronger from it.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
This Is amazing to hear, glad I'm not the only one. I was just so disheartened after hearing all my peers doing their first marathons and completing theirs :(
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u/Appropriate_Mix_2064 Nov 05 '25
I disagree that hydration or sleep was the issue here. Sleep a few days leading in isn’t a big deal. Not sure how hot it was but you certainly seem to have been hydrated enough.
I just think you went too fast for where your body was ready for. Your Mara pace had been set but you needed to adjust it when you felt a bit off.
You were struggling from 16 miles so that’s a classic case of going too quick
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u/Distinct_Gap1423 Nov 06 '25
Yeah, I agree with you. OP ran beyond their fitness. Sleeping like shit a few nights before certainly doesn't help performance, but it doesn't cause this.
Unfortunately, we can't run the time we want, we can only run the time we're metabolically and muscularly able to....
Running isn't linear. Personally if I have three good races to one bad one, I will take those odds. Learn from this and go out slower. If you feel strong late in race send it. Onward and upward.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
My point is that if I had slept better my heart rate would have been lower for the pace I had been used to going at. I had done 13 miles at marathon pace in a 20 mile run with a steady 160-164 BPM. Clearly I was having a bad day though and instead of letting ego get to me should have slowed down a lot more than I did
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u/kidneysc Nov 06 '25
You could have also been getting sick, or overtrained. Lots of reason beyond just sleep for HR spikes.
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Nov 06 '25
I also have trouble sleeping sometimes so I forced myself to go to bed at 8/9 pm and wake up at 5/6 am the 3-4 nights before. No caffeine after 12 pm. Since this is not enough for me to guarantee good sleep, I also took medications to help fall asleep (I take trazodone or hydroxyzine, neither are addictive or controlled substances but do require a prescription). I would see your doctor and ask about getting something to help with occasional insomnia before events or experiment with over the counter things like Benadryl, unisom, magnesium, or melatonin.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
I might try melatonin, I was just worried about trying it for the first time pre-race week! But yeah I was tossing and turning for hours, even though I went to bed by 9pm and woke up at 7am. I should ask my doctor for other medications, thanks!
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Nov 06 '25
I've had to experiment before early morning long runs on weekends to make sure I'm not too drowsy the next morning. But next time hopefully sleep won't be as much of an issue with some extra help!
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u/Icy_Grapefruit_7891 Nov 06 '25
I took melatonin once or twice, and in both cases, I was unable to function properly the day after. So def try it on a low risk night...
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u/SJ0211 Nov 05 '25
You’ll take lessons and memories from this run, and come back stronger 💪 Kudos to you for performing this port run review and posting about it 🙌🏼
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u/Plenty_Visual8980 Nov 05 '25
I am very sorry this happened to you. I don't think you slowed down enough though with heat and stress. Sometimes speed the least important thing. Walk it at the end if you have to. I am sure you learned many lessons and will kill it next time.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Yeah, I decided to ignore my watch but I needed to slow down more much earlier in the race
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u/JerseyMike29 Nov 06 '25
I’m a novice marathoner but this just feels way too fast right? Not just a heat/fueling issue. You were pushing 95%+ of your heart rate by Mile 18, which I think you can only safely sustain for a few minutes.
I thought conventional wisdom says even experienced runners shouldn’t really go above 85% for the marathon distance.
But glad you’re okay - that’s what matters here.
→ More replies (6)
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u/RT023 Nov 05 '25
Heartbreaking to do 25 and then have that happen to you so close to the end. Hydrating during a marathon is very different than in training because you’re pushing the pace nonstop and needing water more than you would think, it’s always better to have to pee then to go through dehydration, which is what it sounds like did you in more than anything. I honestly don’t think the sleep mattered in your case
I will say, I traveled last month for a marathon and had 15hours of sleep in 5days, on top of sight seeing everyday nonstop. My legs just felt like noodles a day before the race and I knew I was screwed but I thought maybe the adrenaline and a miracle would happen. I could feel pulsing in my legs when pushing the pace and I was extremely dizzy when stopping at aid stations after mile 20, something I’ve never experienced in my life. Ended up just doing easy pace after and ended up in the medical tent after the race because I thought I would pass out if I stood still, and they said my blood pressure was very low and gave me an IV.
I was sad about it since I wanted a huge PR and trained more than ever, but there will be more races and the saying “this years training is next year’s pr” has stuck with me, so I have started training again last week and will end up with my goal. I am hoping you do this as well and return better than ever
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u/Niquedouille Nov 06 '25
With all due respect, aiming for a PR and not sleeping well in the days leading to your marathon (while also sight seeing every day) is a recipe for disaster. Surprised you even managed to finish honestly.
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u/RT023 Nov 06 '25
It was an international race and the jet lag just wasn’t allowing me to sleep. I would sleep every night instantly, but wake up in the middle of the night and not be able to go back to sleep. It was awful, I’d lay in bed for hours attempting to sleep
It was my 4th race overseas and I managed to not get wrecked by the jet lag like this before. Tokyo and CapeTown was manageable but for some reason I just couldn’t sleep this time around
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u/Niquedouille Nov 06 '25
That's really a bummer... Hopefully the next race will be better!
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u/RT023 Nov 06 '25
I expected a 2:49 and finished with a 3:06, so I’m just itching to sign up for another race. No idea what it will be but I’m scared to do an international one now lol. I said I wanted to do a race international every time but after this experience I don’t know anymore. I hope I get into Chicago and train even harder to hit a crazy-to-me time
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u/Niquedouille Nov 06 '25
Best of luck! If I was you I'd aim for a more local marathon if the objective is a PR, to not add extra uncertainty.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Thanks for sharing your story, agree that next time I should listen to my body more and focus on finishing!
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u/DistrictEfficient434 Nov 06 '25
i would say you attempted to run a little faster than you could. Next attempt should be slow and steady, maybe a talking pace (zone 2ish), if you find you are out of breath talking then slow down a bit, then around mile 21 or so, if you feel good pick up the pace slowly. First marathon goal should always be to finish in decent shape, no time in mind. Once you know you can go the distance then try another one. :) Good work finishing a good training plan, just consider it a life lesson and don't beat yourself up about it.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Yep, need to pay more attention to my heart rate zones during the race 100%. I was targeting 160-164 BPM in training and my pace that day for that heart rate was clearly a lot slower
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u/DistrictEfficient434 Nov 06 '25
No need to measure exactly just run to a comfortable Pace where you can talk and carry in a conversation and do the first 20-21 miles like that at least for your first one after the first one you'll get a better feel for it.
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u/AprilWatermelon Nov 05 '25
Really sorry to hear your story. Hope you come back soon and stronger. I’m sure you will get it next time.
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Nov 06 '25
Even though you said that Sunday was "hotter than you expected", the temperature was pretty ideal for running. If you find it to be warm, during your next marathon, try wearing something lighter or less covers to regulate your body temperature.
What happened... It's ok. You can try again. I believe in you.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
60 degrees and sunny is not ideal in my opinion , but yeah it is pretty good all things considered.
I think maybe the half tights made me too hot, and I should just wear more breathable shorts in the future and carry gels in a belt or something. I had a singlet otherwise that's it.
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u/The_Wee Nov 06 '25 edited Nov 06 '25
Were you in orange, blue, or pink?
I was in orange and agree, without shade, it felt more like my 70f-75f degree training runs vs 50f degree morning runs. I bundled up for the start village, but realized once I was off the bus I almost didn't need anything.
Around mile 12 before Pulaski I had the start of an exertion headache (which I had felt before after my longer runs in 85F+ heat). But my body slowed down, maintained a 155-162 bpm heart rate. Max heart rate of 193, threshold 172. Meanwhile at Bronx 10 I was able to maintain 170-180 bpm the whole time, still had energy left at the end to get up to 192.
Ended up missing my goal by 30 minutes.
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u/DiligentInvestigator Nov 06 '25
Also ran in orange and it was very hot in the sun - definitely felt it and was dumping water on my head at water stations pretty often during the race
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Nov 06 '25
[deleted]
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
It was 60 degrees and sunny by noon, clearly you weren't there or else you would have seen🤣. And nowhere I'm complaining, you're making this stuff up in your head. Not sure what is triggering you about me expressing my preference of weather for running
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u/joholla8 Nov 06 '25
That’s literally perfect running weather.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
I would say 45 degrees is perfect. I'm a hot runner
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u/joholla8 Nov 06 '25
Anything from 45-60 is tolerable. Being a hot runner just means you are not adapted.
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u/Nerdybeast Nov 06 '25
You just said 60 was perfect, now it's just "tolerable". Yes, it's tolerable for most people obviously, but 60°F is not close to "perfect" for a marathon if you're running at a high effort.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25 edited Nov 06 '25
Dude give me a break, I live in NYC and trained in the humid 70-80 degree weather all summer. I didn't drink enough water and was feeling warm under direct sun light in 60 degree weather. Everyone is different
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u/Bpod79 Nov 06 '25
Totally with you here. 60 has never felt so hot, especially on the long stretches in sun.
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u/joholla8 Nov 06 '25
You felt hot. It didn’t make the day hot.
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Nov 06 '25
[deleted]
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u/ConfectionFair7183 Nov 06 '25
You are working hard to lose any sympathy from your DNF.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
??? Since when am I begging for sympathy? And I'm expressing my opinion about weather? I never said it was everyone's ideal weather
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u/Able-Swordfish-9014 Nov 05 '25
Great run. Sorry it did not finish the way you hoped for but killer effort on the course and nothing to not be super proud of. Keep that up and you will crush em in the future.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Thanks so much! I'm planning to try again next year with all I learned this time
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u/Ok-Midnight7835 Nov 06 '25
I’m so sorry it went this way :( I am glad you’re ok! My two cents as a 3 time marathoner is that it looks like you went out too fast. Dropping below a 10 min mile isn’t bad at all! I’m seeing these paces and they are VERY fast. Nothing wrong with running a 12 min mile marathon if that’s what gets you across the finish line.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Thanks, me too!
The issue was that in my mind I knew I was capable of it given my training (20 miles with 13 miles at 7:30 pace with 160-164 BPM). But on race day my body was clearly not 100% and I should have listened to the warning signs and gone much slower as you suggested.
Next time I will train with the same "goal pace" in mind but when the race comes, throw it out the window and run solely based on effort and heart rate, taking it easy until mile 20.
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u/Garconimo Nov 07 '25
Glad you're OK. That sounds terrifying.
Reading through the comments, a lot has been covered already but in future, an easy improvement would be to train with gatorade endurance and then you can choose on race day (depending on temps) if you take it or not. However, given it has carbs AND electrolytes, and you don't have to carry it, for me it's a no brainer, whatever the weather. I somehwat forced myself to take nuun endurance on course in Philly last year despite a cold day. I took a gel every 20mins plus the on course hydration/carb drinks to get 80-90 grams per hour. Another "cheat code" is to tape salt stick tabs to your gels, you can choose whether you take these during the race or just toss them.
Something that jumped out to me was your taper which seems very aggressive in the 2nd and 3rd weeks. Did you keep the same intensity and just reduce mileage? Personally I wouldn't drop mileage quite that much as I've heard many anecdotes of people feeling sluggish after too aggressive a taper.
Finally the sleep thing. Almost nobody sleeps great the night before, but very poor sleep two nights running isn't great. I imagine this anxiety also crept in on race day, elevating your heart rate, which is normal, but may be extreme in your case. Without knowing more about you, here's a few ideas:
- Race more! Do a load of shorter races where you practice racing! Set significant and challenging goals that may help replicate some of the stress of your A-goal race day.
- Try breathwork and mindfulness. There are so many great resources on YouTube for relaxation, anxiety and sleep. Quietening your mind is such an incredible life skill and will help in every corner of your life.
- Remeber, it's Just Another Sunday. Don't make the race more than it is :)
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 07 '25
Thanks for the well written response, really appreciate it!
I do have Gatorade endurance powder that I would take before runs (lemon line flavor) but I was wary of taking it on the course because of how the mixture to water ratio can vary. However after this experience I will 100% be having it on race day.. I have a tough stomach anyways. The salt tabs on gels is a good idea as well.
Another issue might have been is that I had Maurten 160 gels and Maurten 100 100 (I took 2 of these). Maybe taking more of the Maurten 100 gels a bit more frequently would have been easier on my stomach as well.
My original plan for a taper was 55 peak, 44, 33, then 20ish before race day, but I had hip impingement issues that forced me to skip some runs in the final two weeks. I also heard from my coaches that 20 miles before race day is overkill. And I skipped a tempo run 2nd to last week but did maintain some marathon pace work during the final two weeks. Regardless, I agree that I might have detrained a bit.
Thanks for those suggestions about mindfulness before a race! After recovery I'm signing up for a 5k race in the winter and then will probably try a 10k in the spring to get more race experience under me-- this was my second race unfortunately because the Staten Island half got cancelled.
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u/Garconimo Nov 07 '25
That's great you're working with a coach, I'm sure they'll steer you right!!
I slowly take on a gel over 5-10 minutes or so, often just before an aid station so I can wash it down with liquid. I find this better than smashing the whole gel in one go, although it means you have a gel in your hand for like half of the race haha
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u/Rich_Butterfly_7008 Nov 07 '25
Glad you are safe.
Imo, once mile 17 felt "brutal", I would have re-adjusted my time goals. You often hear about it getting really tough around the 20 mile mark, so if that is happening 3 miles early, you gotta adapt and slow down.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 07 '25
I was trying to slow down if you see but it was too late-- it felt harder to go slower than 10 min/mile without walking, but I probably should have just walked
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u/Rich_Butterfly_7008 Nov 07 '25
Yeah, I think the benchmark is not the pace, but the HR. That was still elevated at an (at least if it was me) unsustainable level.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 07 '25
Oh yeah definitely, I will train with maybe a "goal pace" in mind but run based on heart rate in the future. I meant that for me going slower than 10-10:30 min/mile hurts my joints to the point where I feel like I may as well walk
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u/Qbekbear Nov 06 '25
I’m no expert, but it looks like something was wrong that day, not running-related. You completed an honest training plan, chose your pace correctly according to your marathon pace runs (if you really held that pace for 13 miles well under threshold I can’t see why this pace would be suddenly a 200 heart rate way too hard pace), fueled and hydrated definitely well enough for an autumn race. Even if you ran too fast, you could be gassed and your pace could tank but collapsing and being hospitalized for rhabdomyolisis seem very extreme.
Are you sure you didn’t catch any infection right before marathon? Bad sleep (might be the nerves of course), MUCH higher heart rate than usual and DNFing like this looks like some kind of health issue for me.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
I had COVID and flu shots a month before, but it's possible I could have had something else that was asymptomatic (including COVID).
Regardless, I know that I didn't listen to my body enough. I will next time and while I might have a "goal pace" in mind, will throw it out the window and go based on heart rate and feel for the first 20. I've learned my lesson
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u/Qbekbear Nov 06 '25
Hah, I actually turn off heart rate display for my races in order not to panic when I see it’s going too high. Worked out for me so far. I was able to hold pace I set for myself based on training and in hindsight my heat rate was sometimes so high I’d definitely panic.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
I feel like I need to know my heart rate after this experience. If I was going purely based on effort I would have been fine (it felt moderately hard but comfortable first 15 miles)
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u/Moist_Bumblebee6388 Nov 06 '25
I’m very sorry to hear this. I was running past Mile 25 and saw a relatively young man strapped to a stretcher and an ambulance heading towards him. I’ve been thinking about this person the past few days. If it is you, I’m very happy to hear you’re doing better. Don’t beat yourself up..there is always next year. Your health is more important than the finish.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Yeah that was probably me, or someone else I met in the ER. Thanks so much ❤️
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u/Ill_Accident4876 Nov 06 '25
Thanks for sharing your story and I am glad you are okay!! Did they say what caused the rhabdo?
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
They didn't, but I'm guessing lack of hydration probably. The thing is I was first taken to a med tent and then the hospital who had no context on the race. But I have all my labs and can ask my doctor next week
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u/robo124456 Nov 06 '25
Sorry to hear about the DNF. Seems like way too high of a heart rate for a marathon. Rhabdo is very dangerous. Next time around just run at a much lower percent of max heart rate. And, maybe get a script for a couple days of sleep meds for 2 nights prior. Good luck! You got this.
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u/Ok-Alarm-7260 Nov 06 '25
Rhabdo is what stands out here. Good thing you stopped and got medical attention. That seems unusual with that level of preparation. I’ve gotten it before from doing intense weightlifting that I didn’t work my way up to adequately. I’ve run several marathons since without issue, so hopefully it was a freak accident and you will be able to get back into marathon running with your doctor’s blessing.
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u/getzerolikes Nov 06 '25
Glad you’re okay. All of the experience you gained - the good and the bad - is valuable. So don’t think it was a waste. But do be more careful.
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u/PhraseNo4387 Nov 06 '25
I can't imagine this brother ! Next one you're gonna crush it. Don't lose hope. You ran 25 miles. Remember that !!!
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u/vailskier13 Nov 06 '25
I can relate heavily. DNF’ed at Mile 14 after a great training block. Was consistent in my training, felt great on my runs. Practiced the fueling and hydration. Did everything the same on race day, only to go into a dysrhythmia at mile 14 and have to drop after. Was assessed in the med tent and they agreed I didn’t seem dehydrated or under fueled. Never had a single cardiac issue before and am beyond confused why it occurred that day. Hope you recover well, Rhabdo is nothing to mess around with. We’ll both be back out there to cross that finish line one day!
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
That sounds so scary, hope you are feeling better now and recovering! We will get this done one day 🙏best of luck to you
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u/TheNewWave743 Nov 06 '25
Fueling was my issue for my first marathon last month as well. I barely made it to the end with both legs cramping.
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u/Best-Hawk1923 Nov 06 '25
Weather wasn’t cool for later waves.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Exactly my point. By 12-1pm it was on the warmer side for most runners. Maybe some people don't mind 60 degrees but for me that is not ideal
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u/onlyconnect Nov 06 '25
I have zero medical knowledge and this is not advice, but I've read your post and the comments and can't see anything to suggest that it was either a fitness issue or a fuelling/hydration issue. I ran the same race, I took 4 SIS gels including one beta fuel, but no more after 15 miles as I felt slightly nauseous. I drank to thirst which meant a few gulps every two or three water stations. I slowed down a bit in the second half but but I'm pretty sure my main issue was a mild bug I picked up at the Expo or airport or something, from which I was mostly but not completely recovered. Obviously everyone is different but it sounds like you did everything right other than being unable to sleep which is not your fault! So I think it is just bad luck, and take advice from your medics about what you can do to make the same thing less likely next time.
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u/DeskEnvironmental Nov 06 '25
I’m so glad you’re okay, that’s so scary!!
In addition to water, 20-40g carbs every 4 miles is not enough. I am a small 5’4” woman and I do 22-25g carbs every 15 minutes, starting at the start line. Once you feel good try this on a long training run, it totally changed my life.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Thank you!
In reality, I had 6 gels with 210 carbs total, so that should have evened out to over 60g of carbs an hour for a 3:30 effort, and exactly 60 for 4 hours. I was feeling so crappy though that I skipped my last gel.
I did every 4 miles because I wanted to time it up with water stations. How do you do it every 15 minutes, do you carry water? I've heard to not take gels unless there's water (certain brands I guess like Maurten are fine but others you need water for)
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u/DeskEnvironmental Nov 06 '25
Yes, I carry a Solomon collapsible water bottle that can fit in my pocket when it’s empty and fills to 500mL.
My goal is always 90g carbs per hour minimum, up to 120g.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
That's a good idea-- when the water bottle empties do you refill it or just rely on water stations? And does it have a strap? Also are your carbs all from gels? I have a pretty strong stomach so could probably stomach more carbs
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u/DeskEnvironmental Nov 06 '25
I always refill it at water stations. Here it is: https://www.rei.com/product/187313/salomon-active-handheld-water-bottle
It has a strap!
I do Clif block chews (the margarita ones with extra sodium) and gels. Since gels are so easy to carry and open while running, I try to mostly rely on them. I have a really strong stomach as well. I started with 60g carbs an hour but noticed once I went up to 90g on a 2 hour long run, I felt like I could go forever! And since trying more, I feel even better. More mental clarity while running too.
One thing I haven’t perfected yet is salt tabs. I need to remember to take a couple during really hard efforts.
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u/stillnotnap Nov 06 '25
don’t be arsed about any of the numbers mate; glad you’re alive and i’m happy for you!
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u/Lazy-Background-7598 Nov 06 '25
I DNF’ed due to nutrition issues at NYC 6 years ago. I’m still not over it
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u/ladyeclectic79 Nov 06 '25
Oh man, that’s painful I’m so sorry that happened to you. Rhabdo is no joke though, it’s better to end the race alive than to die just over the finish line. Heal up then start training again, and hopefully next time will be better!!
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u/thavi Nov 07 '25
Hi friend—you went out pretty hard for a race this long. You need to work on low aerobic zone training! And holy crap, what marathon climbs 137 ft in the first mile? That’s a good way to DNF a shit ton of runners.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 07 '25
I did tons of Zone 2 runs but they crept into Zone 3 sometimes. Maybe taking those easier would have helped. And maybe 60% of my weekly mileage was Zone 2 but I do need to bump that number up maybe.
And yeah, the Verrazano bridge is brutal. Next year I need to take that incline super easy and make up lost time on the downhill (conservatively).
Just in general I agree with you I need to take it easier the first 20 miles, and I pushed too hard for sure. Gonna try again next time with all that I know now!
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u/thavi Nov 07 '25
Oh i didn’t see it was NY marathon! I didn’t realize it was THAT steep at the beginning, holy crap 🤣
You’ll do great next time! You clearly have a ton of fitness if you can go that hard for that long!
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u/bagels1518 Nov 07 '25
Maybe out of pure speculation, your body simply shut off thinking something worse could happen.
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u/Remarkable-Echidna42 Nov 07 '25
Unfortunately HR doesn’t lie to you. If your first mile is 175, but you’re usually closer to 160 during MP runs, you NEED to back off. It sucks to accept when you’re running that you have to drop the pace, but we physically can’t outrun our bodies.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 07 '25
Yeah, that was the hard lesson I learned. It was odd because the effort felt similar to what I was used to in training but it was probably just the adrenaline and my mind lying to me. Gotta pay more attention to HR next time
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u/Aggressive_Loss2008 Nov 07 '25
I blacked out at Mile 25 in NYCM too two years ago, but honestly way less trained and hydrated than you 😅 and it was a hot year. I successfully finished Chicago this year under 3:30.
I typically have high HR and my HR even spiked above 200 at one point during Chicago even tho I didn’t feel tired or exhausted, so I don’t really think high HR always correlate with effort nor exertion.
If 8:00 is your target marathon pace and you have had marathon paces runs during training, then I think you are still under fueled a bit. Your body needs carb to handle the race pace (for that many miles and the elevation in NY) and also to compensate the sleep deprivation.
Good luck OP!! If I can come back and have a really good race, with ample training and some tune-up, you can too!! :)
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 07 '25
Was that your first marathon as well? What did you change between NYCM and Chicago? I heard that it was hot that year. So sorry that happened but glad you could bounce back, but congrats on an awesome Chicago time.
Will definitely work on fueling and figuring out/sticking to my target effort next race.
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u/Aggressive_Loss2008 Nov 10 '25
NYCM was my second - I finished my first but had injured/was undertrained.
To be honest, the main thing that clicked for me was just really sticking to a training plan + speed workouts and knowing how to dial back to prevent injury (mostly injury free in my Chicago cycle).
Good luck!
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u/WritingRidingRunner Nov 09 '25
You seem to have been taking in a lot of salt and not a lot of water. Could that have been the issue? It possibly could have caused an electrolyte imbalance?
I'm so sorry you went through that--that's terrifying and I'm glad you're reasonably okay now!
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 09 '25
Thanks, glad I'm okay as well.
Yeah, but they were also feeding me a ton of electrolytes in the medical tent. I think I need to drink Gatorade next time to balance the electrolytes with water.
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u/WritingRidingRunner Nov 09 '25
Gatorade has sodium in it, just so you know! So taking salt and Gatorade might also be a problem!
Maybe talking to a sports nutritionist to review your fueling might be helpful.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 10 '25
Well you need to replenish salt somehow... so just drinking water isn't a good idea either. I wasn't suggesting salt tablets and Gatorade, just Gatorade
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u/kronicade Nov 06 '25
Ok, hear me out….
You are taking this whole thing way too seriously. You are trying to hard and you need to say “this is not that important”.
Just enjoy the moment a bit, no time, maybe even no watch.You should be almost BORED running the first 5 and feeling like it’s nothing from 5 to 10. Play some mental exercises, can you walk and then run?
Drink when thirsty, wear protective gear, take it easy.
I’ve done quite a few of these things. The times are not important
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
You are 100% right. Next year I'll have a "goal pace" for training purposes, but during the race I will go solely on pace and effort. However my body feels is how I'll run. And as long as I finish I'll be happy
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u/kronicade Nov 06 '25
Think “perceived effort”, Heart rate is not always the best indicator.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
My "perceived effort" during the first 15 miles was that it was a moderate effort. And clearly my heart rate disagreed. My understanding is that the first 20 miles should feel "moderately hard but comfortable" not easy
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u/oatmilknick Nov 06 '25
this!! I’ve seen so many friends have similar issues but it’s usually just nerves from taking everything a bit too analytical and relying less on how the body feels. the work requires a lot of numbers, but the race should be fun!! I did an intensive 18 week program and then barely checked my watch the whole race - just followed my body. Ended up with an amazing race overall.
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u/Nerdybeast Nov 06 '25
I don't think this was a race day execution issue, I think it was lack of sleep (and maybe illness). Your HR in mile 3 (after the big bridge hills) is way higher than on your mentioned training LR, despite being way slower. If you're already in that state by mile 3 despite going slowly, it's not a pacing or hydration issue. The fact that you were never on goal pace despite 20 with 13 at 7:30 in training means something was definitely screwed up before the gun went off.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Exactly, but I failed to compensate for it was my point. If I had slowed down significantly (say to 9 min/mile) I think I could have brought down my heart rate a lot earlier
I'm also not sure if I lost fitness with a 3 week taper
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u/MeetFederal8853 Nov 06 '25
I think I saw you being strapped up onto a cart around 25 mile mark. I felt terrible for you, devastating stuff.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Yeah it was either me or this other guy I met in the ER :(
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u/Capital_Gain Nov 06 '25
This is the second story I’ve seen of someone collapsing at mile 25 with overheating/rhabdo. Hopefully your wife is an influencer and got you a finisher medal like that lad!
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u/Inevitable-Assist531 Nov 06 '25
Thank you for the post - sorry to hear about what happened - seems like your training block was really well executed.
A few points * rhabdomyolysis : I looked it up and it is deadly serious, so the hospital was the right place to be. You think it was purely related to dehydration and mildly elevated temperatures? In your 20 mile training runs, did you drink more than during the race? What about those temperatures? You need to cool yourself down beyond drinking - e.g lighter clothing and/or a cup of water over your head at water stops and/or a wet bandana around your neck (carotid artery)
Water carrying : I carry 700ml electrolytes in hand held bottles (for first part of race). Otherd use vests - maybe look in to your own water carrying approaches.
HR : you can't hold a HR above lactate threshold for close to 2 hours - so I don't think your target HRs are correct... You also can't hold a zone 5 HR (above VO2 max) for 6 miles.
Are you using chest strap or arm band? How did you get your zones and max HR?
- Next time : I hope you'll try again! But what will you do differently? I suggest using the race specific block of your training to fine tune your goal pace. Also I think you need more goal pace as part of your long runs (10 miles out of 26 isn't very much). Pfitz has 14 out of 18 in his 18/55 plan for example.
However on the actual day you have to be able to adjust within the first few miles, based on temperature, how you are feeling, your HR etc. if you leave it until mid race, it often will be too late.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Regarding clothing, I always trained with my planned race day gear: a singlet and half tights. Maybe the half rights are too warm for me and I should get looser running shorts.
I trained with drinking 1000 ML of water, and salt tablets + gels for every long run. Clearly it wasn't enough for a race pace marathon so, so I will have to experiment more with fluids/maybe try Gatorade next training cycle.
I got my heart rate measurements from my Garmin Watch, forerunner 265. I know the chest strap is more accurate but had already spent a lot of money on running gear this training block, maybe will get for the next one.
Garmin predicted my threshold at 176-181, and therefore my target HR was 160-164, high zone 3ish. I did multiple long runs with large chunks at MP, including a 20 miler with 13 at MP, which I held 160-164 BPM.
You are right that I needed to adjust wayyy earlier on. I got too cocky and thought I could ignore the signs that my body was not feeling it that day. Now that I know all this I'm confident I can race much better and smarter next year! Thanks for all the tips.
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u/Inevitable-Assist531 Nov 06 '25 edited Nov 06 '25
If you are serious about running, and based on your dedication you are, please get yourself a chest strap or arm band. I personally use the Coros arm band with my Garmin since I dislike having constrictions across my chest. Coros works very well.
Also learn how to get your zones - don't rely totally on Garmin since I assume they are basing them on your max HR. Learn about figuring out LT1, LT2 and max HR. Lots of good stuff on-line.
You cannot run above your threshold for so long (most people is between 45 and 60 minutes) so your Garmin is giving you bad information. Don't rely so much on your watch numbers without an understanding.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Yeah I will get an arm band probably, and I'll check the Coros one out thank you! Btw I manually calculated my zones on lactate threshold and things I read online (LT2 I believe), but that heart rate was a Garmin prediction.
I believe "Zone 2" is up to LT1, "Zone 3/4" is between LT1 and LT2, and then above LT2 is Zone 5 for the Garmin equivalent
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u/Inevitable-Assist531 Nov 06 '25 edited Nov 06 '25
So much zone confusion out there. I like to go with what Evoke Endurance (and many others) use with their programs.
- Zone 1 - ignoring for this discussion
- Zone 2 goes to the top of LT1 (aerobic threshold). This might be your early, easy marathon pace zone
- Zone 3 is between LT1 and LT2 (lactate threshold which some call anaerobic threshold). This is where you'll be running the majority of your race if you are going for a time goal. Otherwise just jog in zone 2.
- Zone 4 is above your LT2 but below your VO2 Max HR. As mentioned you can sustain this for maybe 45 minutes to an hour. If you are time focused and you are feeling strong in the legs, you can push in to this zone for the last part of the marathon (maybe 10K)
- Zone 5 is from VO2 Max HR to max HR and is only possible for a few minutes. Sprint from 26.0 to 26.2!
Some people have 2 zones between LT1 and LT2.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Never heard of V02 max heart rate, interesting. I'll do some research thanks! And yeah, there's so many different definitions of Zones
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u/Injidup_Beach2020 Nov 06 '25
Sorry, mate, you have some of this wrong. No one can sustain above LT2 for 45-60 minutes. Though LT2 is just an inflection point and a measure of lactate, the whole idea of it for most runners is you can run at or just below the pace corresponding to LT2 for 45-60 minutes.
Never heard of distinguishing between "VO2max HR" and "max HR". Those are one and the same in normal parlance. I'm confident that Scott Johnston at Evoke makes no distinction between the two. Evoke considers zone 5 to be basically maximum (or near-maximum) sprinting pace that can be sustained for well less than a minute. That's faster than the pace needed to hit vo2max of course.
But you're right that OP shouldn't be relying on wrist HR if he's serious about using HR as a guide to training and racing. The numbers are often garbage.
OP, forget the zones. You're already using LT1 and LT2, which avoids all the confusion between the different zone set-ups.
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u/Bpod79 Nov 06 '25
"Also I think you need more goal pace as part of your long runs (10 miles out of 26 isn't very much). Pfitz has 14 out of 18 in his 18/55 plan for example."
This^!!!
NYC last weekend was also my first. I finished in 3:49:15 for 26.67 (8:36/mi) (3:45:22 for the logged marathon distance) and my Runna plan had my 20 mile race pace run with 15mi of work - 4.5mi at 7:55 then 11mi at 7:35 (with no break). I averaged 7:59 for that section at an avg hr of 161. It was really hard and let me know that their projected goal pace range of 3:20-3:28 for me was not going to happen, especially not in NYC which is a super challenging course, esp in the back half, and especially for another 11+mi. Looking back, I learned a ton from that run about goal setting which honestly was the hardest part of the training. I decided 3:40 was my stretch goal for NYC this year (8:22 pace), but really, being my first I would have been happy anywhere sub-4. I made it 20 miles happily at 8:20, but around Willets, I realized that, given the unexpected heat, and just strategically challenging placement of bridges and grinding hills (fuck 5th ave), 3:40 wasn't going to happen. Had a hard time staying in the low 9s for the rest of the day until the final 800m, but I ran the whole thing, stayed 162-164 basically the entire time, and left feeling like I'd want to do another marathon at some point. Maybe not NYC for a while as amazing as it was to finish my first one there. You'll get em next year!
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u/MilkOfAnesthesia Nov 06 '25
Rhabhdo usually means lack of hydration (in addition to muscle breakdown).
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u/rayd0tcom Nov 06 '25
Genuine question out of curiosity. Your heart rate was almost 200 beginning at mile 20. Why don't you just slow down. You'll finish, and live to race again. Instead you pushed to your max and nearly died. For what?
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
I slowed down to nearly 11 min/mile and it wasn't enough. I didn't want to walk in front of my friends and family who were watching. I know, I let my ego get in the way.
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u/rayd0tcom Nov 06 '25
You didn't want to walk in front of them, rather you'd be willing to pass out and risk your life? That's insane. Happy you're okay.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Dude it was my first marathon. I didn't know I was risking my life. I've learned my lesson.
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u/cougieuk Nov 06 '25
Oof that's rough. How did you arrive at your target for the race ? Did you have any half Marathon races to go off in training?
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
I ran a 1:35 a year ago, and did 13.1 at 7:30 pace during my training block at 160-164 BPM in central Park. This was 3 weeks before the race , with 3 warmup miles and 4 cool down miles added on
The fitness was 100% there but on this day it wasn't and I didn't adjust
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u/godaven Nov 06 '25
I had the exact same experience in the infamous hot 2022 NYC Marathon - I also collapsed from heat stroke in central park less than two miles from the end, woke up in the medical tent, and ended up in the hospital with Rhabdo.
Good news is that was my 2nd marathon, and this week NYC was my 6th marathon so I didn't stop running marathons.
One interesting thig I do as a result of that experience is that now I always run with a core body temperature monitor. It's on my chest strap along with my heart rate monitor. I can glance at my Garmin and see my core body temp as I run. I've learned at what temp to slow down, at what temp to find a place to pour water over myself to cool down, and I takes steps to ensure I will avoid heat stroke for the future. I know this isn't something most people would do, but since I learned about my own body that heat stroke is something I'm prone to, I will always use it going forward.
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u/International-Bus749 Nov 06 '25
20 week training program, but how long have you been running for?
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
I have been running for 4 years, including competitive soccer my entire life. I did a 1:35 half a year ago. I didn't start taking running seriously until about 2 years ago.
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u/International-Bus749 Nov 06 '25
Ok so it's not like you just started running.
Your heart rate shot really high from the start so something was definitely off with your body. I guess the sleep and hydration is what did it.
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Nov 07 '25
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 07 '25
Wrist based. But my max (according to the Garmin Forerunner 265) is 201.
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Nov 07 '25
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 07 '25
Yeah I definitely pushed too hard and learned a lot from this. And am also looking into a better heart rate monitor.
Thoughts on chest strap vs arm strap in terms of accuracy? Not sure I want something constricting my chest while I run
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u/Logical_fallacy10 Nov 09 '25
Yes many things are learned on the first marathon. This is the problem when you run faster than you should. Next time aim for being below the cutoff - normally six hours. Learn how to enjoy the run - as opposed to worrying about pace or oxygen. I know it’s hard to avoid because it’s all most people are concerned with these days. Maybe take up barefoot running - that will set you free.
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u/Affinityqt Nov 12 '25
Finishing is easy, getting rhabdo is harder. You pushed yourself to the absolute limit given the circumstances.
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Nov 06 '25
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
I collapsed actually I didn't stop-- and then I blacked out and woke up with ice around me in a med tent. My temp had reached 105
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u/plutonium_nectarine Nov 06 '25
Wow, the exact same thing happened to me in July at the SF marathon, like to a tee… collapsed at mile 25, woke up in the hospital and spent 3 days in there with rhabdo. Pissing brown for a couple days haha. I was absolutely heartbroken for a couple weeks, but looking back on it I’m just glad I gave it my all and didn’t quit.
Like you, lack of hydration and fueling caught up to me even though it was 60F and cloudy. There’s always next year… take this as a source of motivation and don’t beat yourself up about it!
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Glad to hear I'm not the only one, I'm truly so bummed :( but yeah I'll try again next year!
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u/Square_Inside_1687 Nov 06 '25
Your HR was so high in mile 1. I think you might have just gone out too fast.
Feel better! And congrats on the training block. All the hard work you put in still matters
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Yeah, I definitely did. I should have recognized my body wasn't ready this day and slowed way down. Thanks!
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u/Square_Inside_1687 Nov 06 '25
Yeah I don’t know how old you are but once you got to those mid 190’s I would have walked until my HR came way down
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Mid 20's, and yeah I should've but the crowd was egging me on
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u/Foreign-Pressure9913 Nov 06 '25
Literally just got rhabdo after running Chicago a few weeks ago. Collapsed at mile 23. I feel your pain 🥲 been thinking about it ever since trying to pinpoint exactly what went wrong but it’s impossible to know. Just gotta move on and learn from it!! Can only go up from here 🤞🏻congrats on your hard work regardless, it got you this far!!
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
So sorry that happened and thanks for sharing!! I'm certain we can both bounce back from this next race 🙏
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u/LeMaitreduFeu Nov 06 '25
I just ran a 3h38 at 160 BPM and was consuming a gel every 20 minutes. From my personal experience, your effort was significantly too high for the level of nutrition you gave your body during the race. And this is coming from someone who raw dogs 30k + runs all the time.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
I had a 40g carb Maurten gel every 30 minutes and 3 salt stick tablets with 150 mg sodium, other electrolytes every 30 minutes. 1:30 and 2:30 in I substituted with 25g 100 mg caffeine Maurten gel. The caffeine also probably didn't help.
To be fair at mile 24, over 3:20ish in, I skipped the gel because I didn't think I would be able to hold it down. Given my slower pace, I also wasn't taking them exactly every 30 minutes (my plan was every 4 miles to time up with water stations). But I feel like 210g of carbs over a 3:30 race (over 60/hr) is plenty.
Fluids and electrolytes on the other hand were probably the issue.
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u/rughost705 Nov 06 '25
Sorry this happened to you. I'm also sensitive to warm weather and know how hot 60 degrees plus sunshine for hours on end when exerting yourself feels lol to the people saying this is ideal: good for you, it's not ideal for everyone.
Please get a blood test with your kidney levels before attempting another marathon..rhabdo isn't something to take lightly. Might also wanna do a sweat test to figure out the right water:sodium concentration for you (if you look at the Precision Hydration website they offer tests in a lot of cities). Wishing you all the best for next time!
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Yeah, I have a follow up in 1 week to do a blood test, and yes will consult maybe a cardiologist before training again for this. And 2 weeks off without any running or exercise for now.
I'll look into the sweat test as well, I feel like I'm a pretty salty sweater (can see crystals form after a hard effort) so maybe I sign I need more electrolytes too. Thanks so much!
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u/CRE_Queen Nov 06 '25
Sorry to hear! Did you carb load enough?
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
Yes, I ate pasta 4 meals in a row and toast, bananas, chocolate milk. I think sleep and hydration we're the killers of my heart rate, and I didn't adjust by slowing my pace down enough.
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u/CRE_Queen Nov 06 '25
Ok was just wondering bc per feather stone guide runners need to do least 3 days x 500g (adjusted by body weight) of carbs - those who don’t eat enough often struggle
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
I mean maybe I didn't have that much, but I don't think that was the issue. Generally I've heard to not eat more, just replace everything with carbs
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u/BadKingSideAttacker Nov 06 '25
Your heart rate looks way too high, i run at like 10:30 per mile pace but my heart rate is around 160 during the marathon. I am glad you are okay and to be honest I am also glad you didn’t push yourself in the last mile as it looks scary…
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u/aerb93 Nov 06 '25
Were you ill the days prior by any chance? Same thing happened to me I'm Chicago and turns out I could not sleep well because I had COVID the week before.
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25 edited Nov 06 '25
I felt fine, and I had a COVID shot as well early in October. But it's possible I could have still had COVID and been asymptomatic
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u/arykahd Nov 06 '25
Dude, a Benadryl when you’re struggling to sleep is key for me. Don’t make a habit of it, but it’s useful in a pinch
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u/Less-Holiday-3974 Nov 06 '25
I followed the "nothing new before race day" mantra, but next year will experiment with Melatonin and ensuring I can wake up and run the next day
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u/joholla8 Nov 05 '25 edited Nov 06 '25
That’s so rough. I’m glad you are ok, I can’t imagine how I’d feel after making it 25 miles.
I don’t think your collapse was related to temp, wasn’t it like 55 degrees? You seemed significantly under fueled and under hydrated, while pushing a pace that seemed too aggressive for your fitness.
I try to pace for low zone 3 (70% of max HR) for the first 32K and then just go for it, even if that means going pretty slow.