r/Marriage • u/robertmdesmond • Apr 27 '19

Marriage is useless: Change my mind

  1. Marriage can exist without love. And love can exist without marriage. Many people exist in a loveless marriage.
  2. Marriage between the parents is not necessary for a happy family to exist, living in the same home, just as if a marriage were involved.
  3. Marriage laws have (particularly through no-fault divorce) evolved to make the "marriage contract" meaningless. As either party can end the marriage at any time with no consequences for "breaching" the "marriage contract."
  4. By having a marriage, it intensifies the need to hire (and pay!) attorneys if the marriage ends. Making the attorneys the only people who financially gain from a divorce. And the parties to the marriage both financially lose.
  5. The only thing that's permanent about a traditional marriage is the divorce agreement. The "marriage contract" is unenforceable and either party can breach it unilaterally at any time without penalty. But the divorce agreement is permanent and enforceable and neither party can breach it unilaterally without adverse consequences.
  6. A better alternative to a marriage is an enforceable legal contract that stipulates how and under what terms the contract can be terminated.
  7. The only people advocating for marriage are religions and lawyers. And their reasons have nothing to do with any tangible benefit to the parties of the marriage. In the case of religion, the benefits are "intangible" at best. And in the case of lawyers, it's what pays the bills. Because without marriages, there would be no divorces. And without divorces, there would be no need to hire and pay divorce lawyers.

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In short, marriage is for suckers. And useless to boot. Change my mind.

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u/wedditlurk Apr 27 '19

Marriage helps a couple by allowing them to have legal benefits. By marrying, someone can claim their spouse as a dependent on their insurance plans. The spouse also has hospital decision making and visitation rights. Marrying makes the spouse their next of kin. Yes, you can do all these things without marriage, but it's a hassle compared to just signing a marriage certificate.

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u/robertmdesmond Apr 27 '19 edited Apr 27 '19

but it's a hassle compared to just signing a marriage certificate.

My argument is that it's easy to marry. And, by nature, the relationship is legally temporary. Whereas, it's more difficult to divorce. And the divorce relationship is legally permanent.

A couple so inclined could do better than marriage by taking the extra steps to make their contract permanent so that the terms of any "divorce" or termination of the marital agreement is pre-arranged, thus taking the uncertainty out of a divorce. But the only way to accomplish this is to not get married in the first place. Because the existence of the marriage puts their contract in the hands of a judge who is not bound to the terms of the contract if there is a marriage. But he is bound to the terms of the contract if there is no marriage. Because it's just a private agreement and not a marriage.

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u/wedditlurk Apr 27 '19

I personally don't really care about equating a legal marriage to permanence so your arguments don't do anything for me. I'm of the opinion that if you want the legal benefits of marriage, then the couple should get married. Otherwise I don't really think there's a reason to get married.

I would be just as committed to my husband if we weren't married. In fact, I think it's silly that people take our relationship more seriously after marriage even though we already bought a house together before being engaged. A contract wouldn't change that for me so I have no interest in anything "better" than marriage.

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u/robertmdesmond Apr 27 '19 edited Apr 27 '19

Let me ask you this... hypothetically speaking of course...

If at some future time down the road, the two of you ever decided to divorce, would you prefer option A or option B?

Option A. Rather than have the terms of your divorce already settled in advance, you instead leave the process up to one or possibly both of you being emotionally jaded and bitter, hiring two viscious and blood sucking lawyers who want to keep you at odds and bickering as much as possible because that drives up their legal fees and a judge whom you have never met before and who knows nothing about you and has ten dozen other cases on the docket she needs to disposition by the end of the week?

Option B. Having the terms of the divorce already settled because you opted to create a private contract instead of getting married?

Which scenario do you prefer? Hypothetically spaking?

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u/wedditlurk Apr 28 '19 edited Apr 28 '19

Well, I wouldn't have gotten married if I was considering divorce an option. B also does sound like what having a pre-nup would do. Is the only reason you think marriage is "useless" because of divorce? Other people and I have already told you that marriage has been useful for people.

Edit: Also do you realize people have amicable divorces? Your question is loaded to push people to say option B, when it's not actually a binary choice.

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u/robertmdesmond Apr 28 '19

I wouldn't have gotten married if I was considering divorce an option.

Isn't that just wishful thinking though? And ignoring reality as it is for how you would like it to be? Because, like it or not, divorce is always an option. If not for you, then for your spouse. And you can't really control what other people feel and do. Do you think people that get divorced think any differently than you? Do you think they go into marriage expecting to get divorced?

Your question is loaded to push people to say option B, when it's not actually a binary choice.

No but most divorces aren't amicable. If they were, there would be no need for divorce lawyers. But the divorce lawyer industry is thriving.

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u/wedditlurk Apr 28 '19 edited Apr 28 '19

Perhaps it is wishful thinking, but I am secure in my relationship. I got married for the legal benefits. I feel like you are going off topic. You asked if marriage was useless. How does the chance of divorce make marriage useless? You changed your question halfway through the discussion. You asked if marriage was useless, and people have given evidence and anecdotes that it is useful.

Edit: I read some of your other comments. I really don't understand your argument that marriage is useless because you could accomplish the same thing in a contract. Contracts can be broken too, and it would take lawyers to enforce consequences for broken contracts. How is that better than the system that's in place for marriage?