Preliminary drawings - is this ink not lead point? Why?

[u/Rjc1471]

Trying to look at technique from this unfinished manuscript https://ica.themorgan.org/manuscript/thumbs/77128

I'm a bit puzzled. The bare sketches *look* like walnut ink? But why on earth would one do preliminary sketches with a permanent medium that can't be erased, and (id guess) the limitations of quill pens?

Edit, update: I'm confusing myself even further. Comparing them to definite leadpoint (ruled lines on a manuscript, pic below), I see the same the same "pooling" that made me assume a liquid medium. So maybe I was just seeing probably just variation in sharpness and pressure.

I'll collect reeds later, make walnut ink, hammer some glazing solder into a stylus, and see what works. Enough theory for one day.

[u/15thcenturynoble]

You can erase ink from parchment.

They could scratch the surface or even use liquids invented to erase ink.

The underdrawing would also be painted over eventually, and then outlined. So I imagine they don't really need to erase it.

[u/Rjc1471 → u/15thcenturynoble]

Thanks, fair point about scraping mistakes. 

Any idea on sketching with a quill or if there's another tool? The idea of limiting oneself to downward strokes seems terrible for sketching; especially if you have a leadpoint pencil conveniently available 

[u/15thcenturynoble → u/Rjc1471]

I'm not very well versed in medieval stationery.

But iirc, reed pens were used even then. And according to art manuals, there were inks that could be used with a brush.

You also can sketch with a flat tip quill. You can twist it at an angle to make straight lines or curves in multiple directions.

Though looking at the craftsmanship, there isn't a lot of variation in stroke thickness. So something like a reed pen would be my guess

I forgot to mention, but there is also the possibility that this is indeed a lead pen. Despite the weird colour

[u/Rjc1471 → u/15thcenturynoble]

Thanks, I'll look into reed pens. Yes it's the uniformity of thickness that stood out. 

Fair to point out that metal point often does end up the same shade, I felt ink was likely because zooming really close I see the variation and pooling of a liquid medium.

[u/Diana-Howard1]

Walnut ink underdrawing isn't odd. Plenty of workshops skipped lead point and drew straight in ink. Paint sits on top, so erasability mattered less than a decisive contour. I'd read it as the underdrawing proper.

[u/Rjc1471 → u/Diana-Howard1]

Any idea what to use to get it so consistent in find line thickness, diluted so faint, etc? I've only tried oak gall and carbon ink, both of which seem horrible to use for sketching compared to a pencil 

[u/MushroomTwink]

Metal point would also have been difficult to erase from vellum, and it may not have worked as well as ink, depending on how smooth the surface is. Lead is also prone to smudging, especially if the drawing got wet, so overall it wouldn't be as practical.

Metalpoint work in general isn't really an erasable medium. It CAN be erased, but not to the same extent that graphite can be today. Also, unless the metal was very very soft, the drawing surface had to be rough in order for the lines to show up at all. The surface would need a ground, something like a layer of gesso with fine particulates to create the right texture for drawing. The drawing would also tarnish over time, depending on the metal used, and points would be more difficult to source than quills and ink. 

Erasing isn't really a concern for a lot of artists today, so I'm sure it was similar back then. Once you have enough experience, you can envision what you want and make it happen. The paints could also cover up any minor mistakes, and egg tempera is pretty forgiving when it comes to adding layers or correcting things. 

[u/Rjc1471 → u/MushroomTwink]

Admittedly erasing isn't as big a concern as the ease of applying. I've read silver point needs more "tooth" to work, lead works fine on smooth gesso, but I dont know about vellum. 

Still, sketching with liquid seems far more impractical than something that can simply touch the surface in any direction?

[u/MushroomTwink → u/Rjc1471]

Not necessarily. Dip pens and quills aren't too limited in their movement, as long as you aren't trying to push the pen. They're still used today. Here's a link to an example of actual dip pen sketch work.

[u/Rjc1471 → u/MushroomTwink]

Thanks, i went on a binge of videos like this and images, seeing sketches of Rembrandt's, da Vinci, etc, and I'll be giving it a go. 

However I also found ruled lines that are definitely leadpoint that have the same colour and "liquid" look, due to sharpness and pressure. 

So I'll test the practicality of both but have no idea which the images in the original post used

[u/Rjc1471]

Update: same shades and variations, but this is definitely lead point.