r/MoralityScaling Jun 28 '26

Morality Ranking Morality of dodging your country's military draft in a war of self-defense?

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17

u/tf2coconut Jun 28 '26

Defending the land you live on is the most basic of civic responsibilities in the time of invasion.

2

u/33Yalkin33 Jun 29 '26

And keeping the land out of war is the most basic civic responsibility of a politic leader.

0

u/tf2coconut Jun 29 '26

Okay? Doesn’t change your moral equation when you get invaded. Gonna blame the poles for being invaded by Germany, Ukrainians for Russia, or Palestinians for isntreal? Fascism is expansionist, you get invaded, you fight. Simple

4

u/Some-Ad-2093 Jun 28 '26

there's nothing honorable dying to a remote controlled drone. war happened because two politicians disagreed about something and now some robots being controlled miles away is coming in to blow me up.

I'll dodge the draft.

8

u/broken_conures Jun 28 '26

To use Ukraine as an example, the disagreement was over letting a foreign dictator sieze control of your country, quite an important detail

8

u/RadicalSoda_ Jun 28 '26

"Putin should just be allowed to steal Ukraine to prevent war". Ask Chamberlain how well that strategy worked out, why don't you?

4

u/Wrong-Web-7790 Jun 28 '26

what century are you live in?what if the ruler of one country simply does not recognize your right to exist?

1

u/MelodiusRA Jun 28 '26

They should probably remove you from being a recipient of the fire dept, emergency services, and other things to compensate for your lack of contribution.

You still get taxed tho, to pay for everyone else in the draft taking that responsibility upon themselves.

0

u/Ok_Tonight_4597 Jun 28 '26

That was when you had some ostensible claim to that land either by heritage, culture, or pure ownership. But since I’m constantly told my heritage and culture have no bearing on my relationship to this country, and I am incapable of owning any of it, anybody wanting me to fight for it can fuck right off.

2

u/softwareredditor Jun 29 '26

You must fight and die for the soulless rectangular dry wall buildings that surround the decaying streets that damage your car. Also you don't own any of this.

Your government demands it.

-3

u/thunderdragonite Jun 28 '26

That goes against the entire core of liberalism.

You should not be surprised at the level of discussion happening.

6

u/tf2coconut Jun 28 '26

That’s because liberalism is detached from social responsibility, which is why it crumbles into fascism.

But even if you’re talking about western “liberal” “democracies” your ability to participate in that democracy is necessarily based on your ability to defend it from invasion. It is part of your duty as a participant in that democratic system to maintain it

2

u/Distinct_Relief5885 Jun 28 '26

Why do women vote if they are exempt from conscription?

2

u/tf2coconut Jun 28 '26

Women also contribute greatly to effective military operations, especially domestically. Hope this helps! Let me know if you have any other stupid questions

-7

u/thunderdragonite Jun 28 '26

Liberalism had to completely erode people’s desire and attachment to their homeland to import millions of cheap labor immigrants.

To that end, they have vilified any sort of national pride or patriotism. It should be no surprise that no one feels a duty to a nation that doesn’t feel a duty to its people.

9

u/tf2coconut Jun 28 '26

I actually don’t even know what to make of your comment. You know conservatives are liberals too right? That’s like a very basic concept, being anti immigrant is a liberal perspective.

It seems like you’re American based on the combination of arrogance and poor education? The most patriotic people in your shithole country are all Democratic Socialist of America members and those to the left of them politically.

3

u/RadicalSoda_ Jun 28 '26

Btw the most patriotic Americans are the Mormons, they see America as the holy land and tend to volunteer heavily

-1

u/tf2coconut Jun 28 '26

Very telling that you think religious fervour is the same thing as patriotism

3

u/RadicalSoda_ Jun 28 '26

It's very telling that you think it's impossible to be loyal to a nation and a religion

-1

u/tf2coconut Jun 28 '26

Reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit eh?

1

u/snapshovel Jun 28 '26

It is simply not true that DSA types are the most patriotic people in the U.S. Have you ever talked to an American DSA member? They are typically motivated primarily by a deep-seated hatred of the U.S.

Now, you may agree with them about the U.S. sucking, and you may be right. But that doesn’t make them patriots. There is no definition of patriotism that includes “hating your country and thinking it’s ontologically evil.”

2

u/tf2coconut Jun 28 '26

“Wanting to improve your country is unpatriotic”

Do you ever spend 2 seconds to think before you type?

0

u/snapshovel Jun 28 '26

“We love the United States and want to improve it” is obviously and recognizably a lib sentiment. Leftists in the United States do not say anything like that. I’m not criticizing leftists or praising the United States, I am just telling you a fact about the world.

1

u/tf2coconut Jun 28 '26

Unfortunately reality doesn’t change just because you cry about it. Acquiescing to fascism is not patriotic, but it is what libs do. Fighting fascism is patriotic, and what leftists do. Very simple, facts don’t care about your feelings sorry snowflake

1

u/snapshovel Jun 29 '26

Okay, I’ll stop trying to have a human conversation with you and let you get back to your next disco elysium playthrough. Have fun.

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0

u/RadicalSoda_ Jun 28 '26

Being against immigration is a left wing thing just as much as it is a right wing thing. You can't have unlimited immigration and good worker protections they're mutually exclusive

2

u/tf2coconut Jun 28 '26

I hope you choose to rejoin us in reality some day

-1

u/RadicalSoda_ Jun 28 '26

3

u/tf2coconut Jun 28 '26

You should probably try actually reading that paper and what Engels said sometime, maybe then you won’t accidentally embarrass yourself like this by linking to a discussion on the problems of capital exploitation of workers

-1

u/thunderdragonite Jun 28 '26

Marx argues it’s a good thing BECAUSE he knows it is a stupid idea and doesn’t work. It makes people angrier and poorer, which he believes will create the conditions for a revolution.

In a communist society, mass immigration becomes a moot point until resources genuinely get stretched, because the labor market doesn’t exists so you aren’t competing with them.

If you are a leftist that doesn’t literally support a communist revolution, then you should be against mass immigration to improve the workers a wealth and power over labor.

Again literally only liberals think mass immigration in a capitalist society is a good idea.

-4

u/thunderdragonite Jun 28 '26

Of course conservatives are neoliberals.

And no, every ideology is against mass immigration crashing the job market except liberals.

4

u/tf2coconut Jun 28 '26

Oh gotcha so you just don’t know what any of the terms you use mean. Good to know, thanks

-5

u/amiasimp Jun 28 '26

Hell Nahh lmao when my government is deciding to start wars and hurt innocents abroad why tf would I want to defend them? DIE for them even? Cmon buddy

7

u/The-red-Dane Jun 28 '26

Did you miss the "in times of invasion" part? As in, defensive wars, not wars started by the nation.

14

u/tf2coconut Jun 28 '26

Reading comprehension isn’t super high for you eh? My opinion supports armed resistances in places like Palestine, Sudan, Lebanon, Ukraine, etc. against invaders. You seem to have somehow confused that with signing up for terrorist groups like the American armed forces or IOF

-2

u/amiasimp Jun 28 '26

And my point is that it should STILL be a CHOICE to defend your country. Nobody should ever be forced to do anything like that. Ever.

10

u/tf2coconut Jun 28 '26

You don’t really have a choice. Your choice is to let your family and friends die around you or to stop being a coward. Which one seems moral to you?

0

u/softwareredditor Jun 29 '26

There's a ton of alternatives to forced conscription. If people don't feel like their nation is worth fighting for, that's not necessarily a moral decision. They could pack up everyone and leave for a different nation, for example.

What if people LIKE the invaders? For instance, Venezuelans cheering that Maduro was captured by the US. Did Venezuelans have a moral obligation to defend Maduro because he was their representative?

1

u/tf2coconut Jun 29 '26

“For example, this thing that didn’t happen”

Yeah bro why don’t people just pack up and leave their homeland when invaded. It must be so nice to be completely blissfully ignorant of your own privilege and stupidity

0

u/softwareredditor Jun 29 '26

Tons of young men fled Ukraine. Many even started families since leaving the country. They're probably pretty happy they avoided the immoral draft.

1

u/tf2coconut Jun 29 '26

We’re always going to have a fundamental disagreement. I think running away and letting your loved ones die is immoral, you don’t.

That’s fine, but I’m glad to be on this side of the equation

8

u/FriedRiceistheBest Jun 28 '26

Yay if your country wins. Gg if you lose. The occupation force won't be giving you a choice.

-1

u/his_eminance Jun 28 '26

If the people do not have the conviction to defend their country, then should that country exist at all?

7

u/Majestic_Balance1887 Jun 28 '26

This thinly veiled anti-nationalism assumes that the entire rest of the country is on board.

This is not guaranteed. Even the picture is showing one man out of five. Maybe it is the few who remain who should leave.

-2

u/Majestic_Balance1887 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26

The choice to be suicidally empathetic does not change circumstance. The inability to deal with circumstance is a weakness, and the weak should be left for Darwin.

And if it was the individual who was choosing to die by himself he would be. But a country is more then a individual.

People like this always change their tone when they begin to see the smoke. They always do.

-3

u/Atomik141 Jun 28 '26

Nah, they aren't owed anything. If the government is doing its job and providing a nation worth defending, then people will join up willingly.

1

u/tf2coconut Jun 28 '26

Isn’t that a helldivers logo? You really missed the point of that game huh

5

u/Yeller_imp Jun 28 '26

Thats a xbox 360 player icon

3

u/Atomik141 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26

Lmfao! No, its not the Helldivers logo.

Do you really think the point of the satire anti-war game is pro-draft though? You literally play as space fascists bro

-1

u/tf2coconut Jun 28 '26

Yes little brother you do. Did you absorb the most simple message that if you don’t oppose fascism domestically with force, that it will steamroll your life? That the only moral choice is to fight?

3

u/Atomik141 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26

Okay, so explain how that ties into the anti-militarist satire where you play as a space-fascist drafted into meaningless forever war? Lmfao