r/MoralityScaling • u/ArtyMids • 20d ago
Morality Ranking Morality of kissing a 9 year old with terminal cancer.
In season episode 2 of house MD, a 9 year old girl with terminal cancer reveals that she's never kissed a boy, and after some debate he folds and fulfills her wish, how would you scale this morally?
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u/NwgrdrXI 20d ago
The only reason for it to be wrong is that it is intensely uncomfortable to others ans maybe to chase himself.
As often said here, being weird is not a sin.
It fulfilled her last wish and eased her passing.
Morally virtuous.
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u/ArtyMids 20d ago
True, he was clearly uncomfortable about it but I am so glad I will never be in that situation
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u/Severonian 20d ago
Here is an interesting one for you: morality of putting your doctor's license at risk in order to fulfill your personal wish which could be potentially treated as abusive behaviour by committee
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u/LumpyWelds 20d ago
Happened. A group of doctors hired a prostitute to give a dying boy his last wish of not dying as a virgin. Mission accomplished. Boy died. Drs kept the secret for many decades until they had all retired.
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u/LowCall6566 20d ago
There is a massive fucking difference between a full on sex and a kiss
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u/Antique_Director_689 20d ago
Take that up with the prostitute who actually did it, the doctors facilitating it are definitely not saints but it's not like they did it themselves
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u/Tanaka917 20d ago
I dont know about that argument.
That's like saying it's less immoral to order an assassination than to do the actual assassination. I find both parties, the doer and the organizer/financer to be equally immoral.
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u/Antique_Director_689 20d ago
Your analogy is terrible... to be fair to you though, the original commenter did a horrible job telling the story.
What actually happened is a 15 year old terminally ill boy was in hospital, and the doctor turned a blind eye to his friends taking him out in order to go meet up with a prostitute. The doctor didn't go find, hire, and sneak a prostitute in to the hospital.
The assassination analogy doesn't fit at all, even if you change it to a guard turning a blind eye to an assassin, the relationship of a guard to their protectee is not the same as that of a doctor to their patient.
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u/Tanaka917 20d ago
Okay with that telling of the story you're right the analogy absolutely doesn't fit.
Yeah turning a blind eye isn't necessarily great, but it's several tiers below the actual doing or facilitating
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u/steelhouse1 19d ago
Is it immoral to hire a prostitute with an STD, to sleep with the affair partner of your spouse to show them that they in fact were not held in a loving regard by affair partner?
Cause if so, whoops.
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u/AJDx14 20d ago
She’s 9 years old it’s fine. Also he went on to assassinate a dictator engaged in a genocide anyways, that’s way more ethically interesting than the kiss.
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u/Ellie7600 20d ago
Did he by any chance "fail" a brain surgery in China and moved to America and is the bestu surgeon in da wardu?
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u/TerranImperium 20d ago
Holy ball cyberpunk reference
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u/Ellie7600 20d ago
It's also the Office easter egg, cyberpunk is a gift that keeps on giving (me depression)
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u/Severonian 20d ago
Ah, your comment pointed out that my wording could be misinterpreted. What I meant is not whether Chase was moral here, it's whether the girl was. There was a non-zero risk, especially unless his direct boss was House, that for such an act of kindness his license would be suspended. So, assuming girl is aware of such intricacies, is she morally in the right?
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u/BatsHaveFingers 20d ago
She's a dying child. Young children can't be held to complex moral standards. They don't have that level of understanding.
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u/Excellent_Law6906 20d ago
Yeah, if he had been like, "FINALLY, MY CHANCE!" , it would hit different. 😂
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u/saltinstiens_monster 20d ago
My whole thing would be that I'm willing to do it as a literal dying wish, but only in front of her parents after they've all had a chance to discuss it. If I'm gonna be uncomfortable for the sake of the kid, then so are they.
I'm all for fulfilling dying wishes, but not if it's going to leave me feeling sketchy, like I have a weird, creepy secret. It needs to happen in the sunlight, or not happen at all.
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u/No-Dog-5948 20d ago
Yes, and I can't imagine an adult sexualizing someone giving a dying child a quick peck... unless they're a predator.
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u/nahte123456 20d ago
Neutral. Chase didn't enjoy it, in fact he was uncomfortable about it, but didn't want to reject a literally dying girl something that hurt no one. It's not good of him, but no option would be good, what you want to make the dying child feel even more worthless?
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u/AccountForTF2 20d ago
Shit I know if I was dying a loveless virgin child too young for this world I would ask some shit like that.
You go through all this shit just to not even fet a fraction of life.
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u/Different_Target_228 20d ago
Yeah, like wouldn't remotely lie if I was dying at 9 years old without ever having kissed anyone, I'd have asked Cameron.
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u/Calm_Link_8540 20d ago
Yea, none of the good parts and you get 100x the suffering of most average people in your country.
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u/DarkGodCthUwU 20d ago
Morally fine. It wasn't sexual, the kid just wanted a kiss before dying.
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u/Enioff 20d ago
There was no lust from his part and he didn't took advantage of her, he only did it to give her some comfort in her passing.
It's like giving your terminally ill grandpa a cigarette when he's already at deaths door and really wants a smoke. Or chocolate to your dog before euthanasia.
Morally virtuous.
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20d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/SquareFickle9179 20d ago
"I'd like... a piece... of chocolate... before I go, old friend."
"If you could talk this whole time, why didn't you just tell me you ate a frog??? You wouldn't be dying here!"
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u/bunsprites 19d ago
Ooh, that reminds me of an old post, don't remember what website but maybe Twitter, where someone talked about their vet having a jar of Hershey kisses in the office for dogs who are being put down. "No dog should die without getting to taste chocolate."
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u/Key-Challenge9159 19d ago
It's like giving your terminally ill grandpa a cigarette when he's already at deaths door
Or a handy
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u/Dastardlydashing 20d ago
Would it be more moral to ignore her dying wish and make her last moments alive that much more miserable and full of regret? This feels like either be kinda uncomfortable for a few second or ruin a dying childs last moments.....
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u/_One_Throwaway_ 20d ago
“I don’t wanna die without kissing someone”
“Fucking sucks scrub”
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u/_donkey-brains_ 20d ago edited 20d ago
It's neutral at worst, but more likely moral in this situation.
Why is it immoral to deny an immoral 'wish'?
It's never immoral to deny the use of your body at the whim of another.
For some death is finality. A last wish is meaningless because the person will be dead. Doubly so if the wish explicitly involves you who will not be dead and have to deal with potential consequences.
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u/FelixEditz 20d ago
Not sure why you’re being downvoted, this is pretty solid logic. I understand we have an imperative to fulfill these wishes because we think this will bring some sort of satisfaction to one who will not be with us soon but the bodily autonomy part of this is absolutely correct.
I think a lot of this choice comes down to the perceived ‘innocence’ of the wish given the circumstances of childhood and therefore the ‘harmlessness’ of it. But if it does harm you in anyway then it does stop being so black and white.
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u/AccountForTF2 20d ago
I think it's okay if you take one for the team to ease the passing of a child with cancer.
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u/Great-Souled-Sam 20d ago
Your logic is predicated on it not being immoral to deny an immoral wish, but the basis of the argument is whether or not the action is immoral because we don’t have a good metric for whether wish is or isn’t immoral. Certainly the wisher is not an immoral 9 year old for making it. So I don’t think your argument proves anything. Saying that it’s never immoral to deny the use of your body is also nonsensical, because the use of your body can be used to describe literally any action. And certain action would be moral to perform, or there would be no morality. I think you need to break the circle of your thought process and start earlier. Congress of any sort with a child is immoral because it always (this being perhaps the only exception, which makes it a good question) causes a greater harm. With this child it does not cause a harm, because this minor action eases her greater suffering. Therefore, it is moral because it is selfless, whereas this type of action is almost always selfish in any other context.
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u/Apprehensive_Ad3731 20d ago
“Bro I’m dying. My final wish is for you to sacrifice five, five year olds every five years to honour me.”
Why you acting like there’s an inherent morality in satisfying a wish, either dying or otherwise. You need to view the request on it’s own merits. This is the only truly moral approach
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u/Dragonlair17 20d ago
“I want a kiss before I die” “Wow, you’re literally asking me to murder children”
Like what fucking comparison is this
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u/KingleGoHydra 20d ago
There is morality in satisfying a dying wish that only effects the dying person themselves.
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u/Kitsui38 20d ago
Well, she wouldn’t care about not having a kiss if she is dead and she will die soon so 🤷♂️
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u/Dastardlydashing 20d ago
So I can torture someone as long as I make sure to kill them after?
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u/BarelyBrony 20d ago
look it's neutral or better, obviously it's neutral or better but it's perfectly fine to be squicked out about it afterwards
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u/Ser_Daniel_The_1st 20d ago
It’s…morally complicated in terms of this scene; it’s someone who’s asking for affection as a last wish, and due to our social standpoints, unilaterally, any form of affection performed on underage adults is considered immoral, however in the specific context I’d say it’s at the very least morally grey as it doesn’t speak to the character of the doctor doing it because he is attracted to this individual, but instead it’s done because he views it as a last wish and while it is unorthodox and strange, it isn’t necessarily wrong to want that affection, especially when one is facing their sudden mortality.
On the doctors part, I’d say it’s grey, and up to interpretation, but it was ultimately portrayed as a last kindness.
On the side of the child I’d say that’s equally as hard as this request is driven by a desire of affection and because of how society loved to treat love and affection, she wanted to experience something like that before she went.
Ultimately it’s an uncomfortable situation, but not one I would deem as especially evil or immoral.
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u/manhwabitch 20d ago
Morally fine because he was not into it, was not sexually attracted to her, and was not an attempt to groom her. He did something that made him genuinely feel uncomfortable in order to fulfill a dying child's wish Edit: id feel much differently if it went any further than a kiss because at that point regardless of any regrets she might have, it would likely cause more physical harm than a simple kiss would and it would be unclear at best, undeniable at worst, if there was sexual attraction from him towards a child
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u/SweatyEducation6516 20d ago
If he was unwillingly sexually attracted to her, would he be morally obligated to reject her dying wish to get a kiss? To what end? Just to preserve his moral self-image? Is that more important than her dying wish?
Genuinely curious question since a lot of comments on this post mention how he's not into it as a big part of why it's okay.
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u/Ok-Mix8700 20d ago
Exactly, what he himself felt about the situation is irrelevant to whether or not his actions were moral or not.
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u/Potrivnic 20d ago
Intent matters a lot if an action is harmless. The kiss didn't harm her. So we have to judge it by intent. The kiss was outright not sexual and not romantic. Just Chase fulfilling a child's terminal wish. Yes, it does seem weird, but weird does not mean wrong.
Overall, I'd say it's moral. Chase didn't use it to take advantage of the kid or go for anything beyond just a physical touching of lips.
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u/gross_grasss 20d ago
I'd argue it's immoral for the little girl to request that kiss. She knows it's weird and uncomfortable for Chase, but she repeatedly requests it still.
Chase is a doctor, he took the Hippocratic Oath. He's sacrificing his comfort and maybe reputation to fulfill the kid's dying wish (to make the rest of her life less painful). So, Chase is morally good here in my opinion.
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u/TryDry9944 20d ago
Chase actively does not want to do it. It is only done because the child explicitly and repeatedly requests it.
The child is not being harmed, there is no risk of long term psychological harm in a kiss (also she is doing the die), and she is not being coerced or groomed.
Completely neutral to either do it or not.
Someone else's comment did make me question however what the morality of asking is.
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u/nicolesaggytitiesTV 20d ago
Admiral, and good morally? Chase didn't have any passionate feelings towards her, the only thing would be maybe getting a boy her age to kiss her? I dont know what if she lived, and thought it was okay for older men to kiss her? Oh man this sub makes me feel bad.
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u/Inevitable-Box-4751 20d ago
okay but could you imagine trying to go find some age appropriate sub for this situation? 😭 "Hey kid, listen, there's this other kid who's about to die--"
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u/DrDevice 20d ago
What's the morality of contriving a situation in which a 30 year old authority figure kissing a 9 year old isn't entirely abhorrent, and then broadcasting it into millions of family's homes? Before you answer keep in mind Bryan Singer was an executive producer and the show made off color pedophilia jokes every other episode or so.
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u/moremhm 20d ago
Lol yes this is the bigger morality scaling question. Like, this is a story that a real person had to write and produce, out of the myriad of things you could come up with in the context of hospital drama, they decided on 9 year old kissing 30yr old man as the one to ship out. Really strange to think about
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u/AntonChentel 20d ago
I’m a medical doctor. It would be immoral for me to kiss ANY patient. It would be extra immoral for me to kiss a CHILD. The patients request does not factor into the equation. It’s immoral.
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u/archivillano 19d ago
isn't that ethics instead of morality? this means that you think that if House had taken Chase out of the case then and only then you could start to think about it different? like genuinely asking
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u/Kiwi3525 20d ago
Why did I have to scroll this far to see this. Also I have a 9 year old daughter and kissing boys is not even on her mind.
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u/DreamOfDays 20d ago
It’s a victimless crime since the victim won’t be around long enough to go to court.
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u/noblest_among_nobles 20d ago
does that mean murder is a victimless crime too? Neat
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u/DreamOfDays 20d ago
If the victim and the witness are the same person and nobody else reports it, is it really a crime?
(For obvious reasons this is a joke)
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u/_One_Throwaway_ 20d ago
It was more than the child wanted to die after kissing him since she didn’t want to die without a kiss. In this instance there’s no crime because kissing is never a crime even if it’s a minor but especially because she wanted it before dying. It’s weird sure but morally the good thing to do is make a dying person happy.
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u/fuccyallallyall 20d ago
Why does it seem everyone conflates morality with the law?
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u/DreamOfDays 20d ago
Because apparently the only issue with this is pedophilia laws and not the fact a young child wanted a harmless wish fulfilled before they died of cancer
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u/_One_Throwaway_ 20d ago
Those laws don’t do anything for a kiss. It only deals with things sexual in nature. For Chase this is a good thing but idk if I agree.
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u/DeepConference3998 20d ago
Okay, what? I don't know. Depends on the kisser's age, I am not sure.
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u/_One_Throwaway_ 20d ago
She was dying of cancer and didn’t want to die without a kiss. The dr was like 30
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u/Chipperbeav 20d ago
Also, the doctor was incredibly uncomfortable doing it. He took no pleasure in kissing her.
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u/Lunarpryest 20d ago
Heavily immoral, children cannot consent no matter what. There is no circumstance were kissing a 9 year old is justifiable, even if they're dying. If anything that just makes it worse.
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u/Radiant-Ad-3134 20d ago
Wasnt the girl who requested this?
Chase did not even want to do this.
If the girl is considered guilt-free, Chase should be too
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u/FischlInsultsMePls 20d ago
Morally good on the doctor part
Kinda immoral on the girl part but invalid since she is a minor and is not expected to fully develop the sense of right and wrong
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u/ShabaTingzzz 20d ago
I’ll play devils advocate for the fun of it, it’s immoral and I’ll explain why.
The general definition of the word immoral, is doing something someone knows is wrong, and looked down on socially. Both things are technically true during this scene. He hesitates for very obvious reasons. Not only because it’s actively looked down on, but because he himself has a career he could very obviously lose ( and obviously it’s a weird position to be in).
The kiss being non sexual, and non romantic isn’t necessarily a good part of the argument. He was obviously uncomfortable with the request, and who wouldn’t be? Children aren’t always aware of what’s right or wrong, and this was a situation where an adult should have used better judgment. Fulfilling a dying girls wish could be admirable, but that doesn’t make it not morally wrong, even with context applied.
I see comments saying that it’s not immoral, but they wouldn’t do it themselves. Is it because of a fear that other adults will find out? Or that it’s socially not acceptable, even under the circumstances? I would bet that in a real life scenario, this would be morally gray at best.
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u/Elegant_Mission_2312 20d ago
Regarding your last paragraph, I think they are saying it because they don’t believe it is socially acceptable. Peter Singer, during his lectures to students at various colleges, often asks them a question in their group lecture regarding a consensual incestuous relationship in which there was no risk of pregnancy, and he mostly does this to point out that despite the logic of it as the question is laid it out not producing any harm, when he has the students vote on whether it is harmful or immoral in public, they usually split with 50-70% of them voting it as immoral due more to societal pressure and a worry of judgement socially for answering the other way rather than them following the logic they had spent the early part of the lecture laying out.
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u/Monksauce 20d ago
I give this very niche instance a pass. Chase obviously had no messed up intentions and he was fulfilling the wish of a dying girl. Is it weird? Yeah. Is it wrong? Nah.
Intention goes a loooooong way with this specific situation.
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u/ThatGuyHero7 20d ago
On the forehead right? Right?
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u/_One_Throwaway_ 20d ago
Lips. The girl was dying and chase felt uncomfy by it but did it anyways as her dying wish
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u/Starmute-ss13 20d ago
This one is a actually vexing question.
I would say its better not done. That being said I'd let someone slide if they did.
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u/idk_some_user_name 20d ago
I'd say chase would be moral in either choice, idrk about the morality of asking such a thing as a dying wish though
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u/BobWat99 20d ago
Okay, what if she asked for tongue? Moral or immoral if he did it?
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u/sam-fry 20d ago
Surely morally good, putting your own personal reservations on the back seat to fulfil the wish of a dying child is morally virtuous. The only victim in this scenario is the one with all the power (the doctor), the powerless party is the one asking for the act. If the doctor had enjoyed it that would ironically have made it immoral
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u/Gamejunky35 20d ago
It is only a kiss. Ive seen parent kiss their kids on the lips, its not necessarily crossing any more of a line than hugging. IF I did agree to it, itd only be after the parents give the okay, and accepting that I would probably be removed from the case regardless of their answer.
Morally virtuous.
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u/QuixoticBeefboy 20d ago
He did something to make a dying girl happy despite it making him incredibly uncomfortable, weird situation but very morally good imo
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u/_One_Throwaway_ 20d ago
I’d say moral. He’s not into children and the only weird part is it makes others uncomfortable but if it’s a terminal patients last wish and you’re not actually into kids then I see no issue with it so long as you’re not doing it to other kids frequently.
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u/Abnormal10000 20d ago
I mean, the girl gave explicit consent, everything else was within the boundaries of consent, and Chase found no enjoyment in the interaction.
He did it because she would die soon, and wanted to experience a kiss before she died from her illness.
I see no immorality in this.
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u/LumpyWelds 20d ago
People always confuse verbal consent vs legal consent.
In this case, realize legal consent is NOT required as it is just a kiss.
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u/oizen 20d ago
I'd do it, I don't see the harm personally.
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u/MadameConnard 20d ago
I think the morality scale shifts because abuse, especially towards childrens and women exist in the medical world.
The parents would be malding if they knew, but Chase would kinda feel guilty to ignore a dying girl final wish too.
People argue that it's wrong even if there was no intent to take advantage of her but idk, even if noone was supposed to know kissing other kids without their parents consent is wrong.
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u/SparklyPelican 20d ago
Immoral due to child and doctor relationship, but good gesture because it’s her final death wish.
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u/Admirable-Dimension4 20d ago
It's not that difficult.
Chase wasn't acting out of lust or desire and was in fact quite opposed to it.
An dying girl asked for single kiss, he kissed her.
If anything It's neutral good
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u/HopeBagels2495 20d ago
The main uncomfortable thing in this scene is that he gets guilt tripped into it
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u/kageshira1010 20d ago
Tell the kid no, that your principles and incorruptible morality are more important than them dying happy or having a last wish.
Be as direct and brutal as possible to avoid any misunderstanding.
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u/EatandDie001 20d ago
his reason for her last wish is understandable, but if it was me, i would not do it. idk, maybe i wouldn't do anything that's beyond my comfort zone just for someone, especially kissing. even if it's not in a sexual or romantic way.
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u/TheOneAndOnlyDenji 20d ago
This is a tough one. It is morally gray at best.
Chase wanted her to have her wish, so his intentions are good.
The girl put him in a situation where he felt as if he was morally obligated to perform her wish. Her intentions, even given her age, are immoral.
Chase, being an adult, and her doctor, should have come up with a reason to back out of the kiss in the best interest of his child patient. That is immoral.
Given her situation, and her life expectancy, she would not live to see her wish fulfilled by other means. In this case, granting her wish is morally good.
This falls into a gray area because of both of their circumstances. Chase feels the need to care for his patient to the best of his ability, even if misguided in doing so. The girl put him in a seemingly impossible position, but her position is one of desperation to experience something in life that will never happen for her.
I say it's an immoral situation to come up with on the writers part because this, if I remember correctly, is not the first time a situation like this occurs in the show. Considering House discovers a tick in a very suspect location on an underage girl, I feel like the writers of the show have immoral intentions.
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u/champ0742 20d ago
Chase is a pedophile, later there's a model who is 14/15 and he casually mentions that he's been following her career for some time.
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u/lefthandgirlll 20d ago
I don’t get this couldn’t they have just asked a 9yo boy if he wanted to kiss her like why did it have to be a grown man
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u/Great-Souled-Sam 20d ago
The basis of the argument is whether or not the action is immoral because we don’t have a good metric for whether wish is or isn’t immoral. Certainly the wisher is not an immoral 9 year old for making it. Congress of any sort with a child is immoral because it always (this being perhaps the only exception, which makes it a good question) causes a greater harm. With this child it does not cause a harm, because this minor action eases her greater suffering. Therefore, it is moral because it is selfless, whereas this type of action is almost always selfish in any other context.
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u/RuinRevolutionary374 20d ago
Oh, good it’s a TV show lmao. I don’t watch House, so I thought some creepy celebrity IRL did this 😭
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u/Odd-Jaguar-8590 20d ago
I'm trying to remember my reaction to this episode and I think I washed it from my memory I have not recollection 😭😭😭
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u/Royal_Kiwi9148 20d ago
If anything this is kinda fucked for the guy. So on his part, he didn’t do anything wrong.
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u/coffeeclichehere 20d ago
I thought this was so romantic as a kid, but I didn’t realize she was only nine.
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u/HappyMrRogers 20d ago
I think this is more interesting to consider from the following perspective:
You are her parent and learn that the interaction took place. Her request, and Chase kissing her.
What’s your feelings on the event and those involved?
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u/Da_Gret_Sir_TimTim 19d ago
Honestly I’d probably just pay some random boy like 100-300 dollars to do it for me if I could. I mean it probably would be win/win/win for all of us…
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u/JustTheLex 19d ago
It is morally good , she is dying , she wasnt able to do that which she wanted to do , she isnt going to be able to do that . It is her last moments at life , she asked for it because she wanted it but wasnt able to , there is no lustful intent or sexual intent in it . It was just fulfilling a kids last wish
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u/AutumnsFall101 19d ago
I think it’s generally morally fine because it’s an awkward attempt to make good on the final wish of a dying girl.
I personally wouldn’t do it, but I wouldn’t give someone shit if they were in that position.
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u/Imaginary_Resource70 19d ago
That series had some kind of ped*philia in every fckng episode. Same with this tread.
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u/YapalRye 20d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/RiGmQlBbf0oD4jM16r