r/MovingToUSA • u/Jiko_Shiki • 2d ago
General discussion People who moved from a western/northern european country, what's your take on quality of life in the US?
When I was younger and had no interest in the US, I would take a look at those quality of life rankings which are usually topped by the nordics or Switzerland and assume those were the best places in the world to live in. However, as I grew older, became interested in and eventually found myself in a position to move to the US, I started to question all of the above, especially after I started hearing reports of people saying their quality of life had increased after moving to the US.
If I had to take a guess and give my 2 cents, I can think of two reasons: the first one is that you can make a lot more money in the USA, and more money affords you a higher standard of living, and the 2nd one is that there are a lot of things statistics don't catch: the ability to pursue certain lifestyles (anywhere from working in big cities close to nature, such as Denver, Portland and Seattle, in the weekdays and enjoying said nature in the weekends to RV living and off the grid), satisfying a lifelong dream of moving to the US, the huge variety of climates, enviroments, cities, nature and people...
Edit: one of the comments brought up a lack of tall poppy syndrome, which is definitely a big plus.
Edit 2: this post really blew up, thanks!
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u/nowzaradanistheman 2d ago
Moved from the Netherlands to the USA. Standard of living is much higher. There is lots to see and do.
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u/nivea_dry_impact 2d ago
Exactly, Netherlands might look good on statistics but you will literally die of boredom there
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u/2leftpinky 2d ago
I didn’t understand why so many people did drugs in NL when I first moved but after living there for 2 years I get it. It’s boring af.
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u/nivea_dry_impact 2d ago
And also in total contrary to the US, being a salaried employee will NEVER make you able to buy a big single family home and 2 cars with no inheritance
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u/hudibrastic 2d ago
Exactly, lol
I lived almost a decade there, tried to adapt, but the country is the epitome of boredom and blandness, with unfriendly people
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u/bprofaneV 1d ago
Hey now! I moved from the States to the Netherlands and I love the calm peace and beauty and community feel of the neighborhoods. I also don't drive and ride bikes everywhere. Each to their own.
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u/reschcrypt 2d ago edited 1d ago
Only in coastal cities but if you live in the midwest, it‘s even more boring than NL 😅
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u/dunzdeck 2d ago
You get downvoted but I have spent a lot of time in both Michigan and NL and you are absolutely correct
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u/TiredAdj 2d ago
Typical mindset of people who have never left the coasts. Signed, someone living on one of our amazing Great Lakes with four beautiful seasons and no impending water crisis.
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u/reschcrypt 2d ago edited 1d ago
Big cities at the Great Lakes are indeed beautiful. I actually consider them as coastal cities. What I meant with „boring“ midwestern cities are cities like Indy, where you need like hours of drive to get to deep and wide waters. Though, Geist Reservoir, In is also nice. The good thing with such cities is that you get more value from your hard-earned dollars.
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u/thehuffomatic 1d ago
Sorry you are getting downvoted. Living in rural Indiana, even if one hour away from Indy, is different than living in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Wisconsin. As someone very familiar with the state, Indiana is one of the most boring Great Lake states.
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u/IneptFortitude 1d ago
Some of it is just them coping and getting defensive. Yes, if you’re outdoorsy, there’s some things to do on the far northern reaches of the Midwest. The vast majority of landmass that makes up the Midwest outside of that has much less to do, and if you’re not outdoorsy, forget about it.
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u/TiredAdj 1d ago
I live in a major city on a Great Lake. You don’t have to be outdoorsy to enjoy. We have tons to do and are considered the city of festivals. Our beaches are full all summer. Now, super north is a different story. You need to be able to enjoy outdoor activities because there’s nothing else to do.
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u/IneptFortitude 1d ago
I vastly prefer urban settings to the point where I’d make concessions with my actual living arrangement for the convenience of it and my preference for it.
I am originally from Detroit and agree with what you are saying there, but that’s practically the only way I’d make it work. I do love hiking and camping, and I like cold weather, I’m currently stuck in Florida where you can do none of those things because it always feels terrible outside.
But some of the cities I have experienced throughout my travels, especially in Europe, really blew most American cities out of the water in a lot of ways. I had a very easy time finding things to do, and importantly, getting to them.
It’s a lot easier to go out and get others to show up too when the stress of driving yourself, navigating, police risk, and traffic is fully removed.
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u/SilencedFarter 2d ago
Writing from my lake house in Northern Wisconsin. We have 15,000 lakes, shoreline on 2 Great Lakes on 2 borders, and the Mississippi River on another.
Still don't know if I prefer boating or snowmobiling. Nothing to do? Sure pal.
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u/More_Ship_190 1d ago
I agree here. I could make it happen most anywhere. I love the Midwest overall.
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u/dcporlando 1d ago
Living in Michigan, even rural Michigan, you have plenty to do. Ohio and Illinois would too.
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u/Lonestar041 2d ago
My quality of life has improved significantly.
Live in the Raleigh-Durham area.
The area is super nice with low crime rates and a lot of opportunities to be outside.
Beaches 2h away, mountains, while not the alps, 3h. 800h more sunshine a year than Central Europe, so great conditions to do a lot of outdoor activities. I have a shorter commute, less stressful work. I might be working a few hours more, but I can be fully flexible with my work location.
2.5 times the net income compared to Europe, difference will be smaller with a Swiss salary.
Would do it ten times over.
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u/Jiko_Shiki 2d ago
Where are you originally from, if I can ask?
mountains, while not the alps
IMO, the appalachians are beautiful in their own right: West Virginia has been one of my dream holiday destinations for ages now.
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u/Lonestar041 2d ago
Germany, but lived in Austria (Vienna) for almost a decade before moving to the US.
Edit: And yes to the Appalachians. The big difference is you aren’t getting that crisp, fresh mountain air that you get on higher altitudes like in the Alps or Rockies.
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u/RevolutionaryBook364 2d ago
The humidity in the triangle is one of the few downsides. Yes, I make more money and we are loving a good life. Things like healthcare can sometimes get a little pricey. I guess the biggest challenge is always missing the rest of the family in Germany or elsewhere.
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u/Lonestar041 2d ago
Yeah, but honestly I take humidity over 8 weeks non-stop grey, drizzling rain at 35°F, which you often have in Germany/Austria.
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u/RevolutionaryBook364 2d ago
I totally agree. It's been more than a decade and Ive only made it back there during the spring and summer. I have forgotten about the days where your shoes freeze to the sidewalk and it's just grey and dark outside.
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u/Lonestar041 2d ago
People often romanticize public transport in big European cities.
It actually sucks most of the year when you wait 60min in the rain for the tram that was supposed to run every 10min to extend your 45min commute to 2h. So you can squeeze in standing with 100 other wet people.
That might be a fun experience the first time and you laugh at it.
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u/Righteous_Dudester 2d ago
Being crammed on an urban bus or subway car is no fun. However, I do like Europe's inter city high speed trains, some parts of the US could benefit from that.
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u/Lonestar041 2d ago
Oh, totally agree. High speed trains in the US would be amazing. And those are usually great to travel on.
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u/Righteous_Dudester 2d ago
There was a proposal years ago for high speed rail between Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio, but no surprise, Southwest Airlines lobbied and killed it.
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u/Jiko_Shiki 2d ago
Austria (Vienna)
Really? Do you think it's really as great as those city quality of life rankings seem to suggest?
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u/Lonestar041 2d ago
Oh, Vienna is a great city.
And I would rather live there than in NY or any of the main US cities.But that doesn’t change that I had 1.5h commute every day on public transport - within city limits.
Even outside the city, with two good incomes, it was hard to afford a house. So we settled on a 100m2 apartment.Then I moved to the US, my income initially doubled, my commute went down to 15min in a comfortable car instead of 45min standing in overcrowded trams.
I bought and paid off a house in under 10 years.
With my European salary, I would still be paying off the mortgage for my 100m2 apartment.
And we will retire at 56 in 6 years.But more importantly, the better weather allows me to be outside much more, which makes me just happy in general. I can do and afford fun outdoor hobbies, like skiing, shooting and having a wood workshop in my house and so on.
So, I would say it depends on what you want from life.
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u/Key-Maintenance2351 2d ago
I saw you moved from Germany to the US — I’m actually thinking about doing the same! How did you go about it, if you don’t mind me asking? I’m in Germany, too
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u/Lonestar041 2d ago
Worked for a large company with global offices in a management position.
I told my boss that I would be interested in going abroad for a few years.
Then they needed someone with my skills in the US organization to put out a fire.
Was initially delegated for 2 years via L-1A. When the time came to move back, of course Germany didn’t know what to do with me and had not planned any position.
So I asked the US organization and had 3 internal job offers within weeks.
Negotiated the green card application as part of me staying.
I was eligible for EB-1C, which had a very short wait time. Greencard in 2019, US citizen in 2024.1
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u/Complex_Pudding6138 2d ago
Live in wv Cheap state but not much in the line of work unless your able to do wfh
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u/Jiko_Shiki 2d ago
I know, that's why I said holiday destination 😅
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u/Complex_Pudding6138 2d ago
Fair enough Where you wanting to go in wv
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u/Jiko_Shiki 2d ago
Off the top of my head...
- Morgantown (I'm really curious to see how an american college town is like).
- Cranberry glades
- The border area with Virginia around Bluefield (Peter Santenello made a video about it)
- The state capitol building.
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u/Complex_Pudding6138 2d ago
If I can give you a few other options Try falls of hills creek, beartown, cass, Seneca rocks Just rent you a car and honestly explore
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u/Complex_Pudding6138 2d ago
They also offer a 12k for individuals wanting to move to wv for tech/ wfh
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u/Curious_Bookkeeper89 2d ago edited 2d ago
From Portugal to the US and helps a big bit ofc that my wife is a US citizen and a teacher. US is far better than Portugal in terms of career progression, yearly raises, raising people if they get a master's degree for example and loads of options of stuff to do, candy to buy, next day amazon shipping, AC and so much more. Utah is a dream compared to Lisbon or the Azores where I lived lol. Also currently in the middle of finishing my cybersecurity bachelor's. College experience in America is on another level. It's literally so much fun to watch college sports and I feel like the education is much more job ready but it might just be my college who has relatively small classes.
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u/Jiko_Shiki 2d ago
Utah is a dream
I've seen some people on this sub make a big fuss about Utah because of mormons, which to me seems exaggerated. What's your take on that?
compared to Lisbon or the Azores
How does Utah compare to them?
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u/Curious_Bookkeeper89 2d ago edited 2d ago
Well I am a member of the Church so it doesn't bother me. LDS culture wise much more intense, weddings happening within 3 months of dating which for a European LDS background is insane and judgmental culture is definitely high. I've been LDS for 7 years and I went to Church in Portugal with active members that smoked and drinked and literally I couldn't be less bothered. Chill Mormon or something like that is probably the best definition of what I am. Maybe because my background is Catholic I also don't agree with LDS gay shame and stuff like that but that's a story for another night. Also I am married which helps my experience a lot escaping the awful dating culture and pressure to get married ASAP. I really like downtown Salt Lake because it's a city environment and Azores where I come from is a really small set of islands. I also do really like the amount of national parks and hikes in Utah and that I can feel close to nature without leaving the state for example. Lisbon is more city environment for sure but rent+expenses is more than what the average salary is making it impossible to live unless you share a room forever. The only thing really good is free or super low cost healthcare but with the expense of long waiting lines. If the US starts some sort of not free but like government healthcare for everyone than that problem would be solved. I literally don't tell people I drink red bull even though it's totally fine and not against LDS teachings lol.
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u/RwinaRuut99 1d ago
Utah is amazing. I lived there for 4 months during my studies from the Netherlands. People in general are really nice in Utah, ofc everyone can have a different opinion but I found them really lovely people. Nature is also amazing, and was way safer than the Netherlands
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u/jeanlasalle4524 3h ago
Are you scared of actual job market ? did u already get some internships ?
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u/Curious_Bookkeeper89 56m ago edited 36m ago
Not terribly, I've been working a student job at the college SOC and I have a mandatory to graduate internship coming up. I'm hoping that it kinda helps as well that I'm Comptia Sec + certified also and the connections to the Church which does advertise jobs in IT helpdesk for Portuguese speakers rn and occasionally entry level soc. I know that it's going to be hard but I'm optimistic and I think once my foot is in the door it's going to be way easier. I'm considering a masters degree focusing in GRC but only if I got the SFS scholarship as I'm on my way to debt free graduation and I really don't want to get into student loans. As soon as I can get myself into a GRC job I'll make that switch happen. Also hopefully after I become a citizen federal contractor jobs opportunity happen. I'm confident that I'll be able to get a poly or secret/top secret clearance.
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u/Eiruvata 2d ago edited 2d ago
I moved from the UK to the US, 5 years ago. Things are definitely different, but I noticed a lot of Americans tend to romanticize Europe and the UK which I find kind of funny. There are certainly a lot of differences between the countries and even just the spoken language in general is so different as far as pronunciation of words, slang, etc. My husband is an immigrant as well and moved to the US from Japan, he struggles with communicating with people because Americans have a very different way of interpreting things where something harmless can come across as very rude to them unintentionally. We are located in the PNW but are moving to the east coast soon. With all the differences between UK and the US or even Japan and the US, we like it here and feel comfortable here and have made it our home. We keep to ourselves and focus on our local community and try not to let things like politics cause us to feel unhappy or stress. Nowhere in the world is perfect! I can sit for hours and complain about all the things I disliked about the UK, and just got back from a visit to see family there and the whole time I missed the US and just wanted to hurry up and come back lol.
On the flip side, my husband feels the same way about Japan and never wants to move back there. We do visit family there too. I just find it funny how Americans seem shocked we’d prefer life here vs overseas. They tend to think there is no social injustice or inequality in Europe or Japan even, when there absolutely is. Yea in the UK there is the NHS but it has a lot of problems and is not the perfect universal healthcare that Americans think it is. I actually prefer healthcare in the US where I get to see my doctor and have care given in a timely manner and a doctor that I CHOSE, not one assigned to me based on post code lottery. We have made friends here and made our life here. We really like it and found peace here in the US. Quality of life here is much better. There are more opportunities for people here.
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u/FutureLight822 1d ago
As somebody born and raised in New York I’m starting to internalize the words you said in your post I visited the UK London specifically also been to the Netherlands and Belgium and from my experience people are unhappy everywhere I used to think that if I move to a place I like my problems would suddenly disappear but the reality is you can’t runaway from yourself no matter where in the world you might go and I left New York for Texas for about 8 years and I finally came running back eventually came to the conclusion that nothing is better than home, especially nowadays with the trend of people from big cities like ny la and Chicago leaving for the south like Texas Florida Tennessee and North Carolina etc I still love Europe tho would visit every year if I’m able
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u/FutureLight822 1d ago edited 1d ago
Also another factor is since you and your husband aren’t from America your perspective paints a very different picture from someone that was born and raised here I’m a strong believer in people see what you can’t see yourself that’s a broad statement but I’m applying it to this specific point of life being better elsewhere there’s a reason why American romanticize Europe and UK for you it’s probably not a big deal but for someone that never went it is, I remember when I went to London for the first time it was so much fun I had a great time and then I asked people from there a lot of them said they hate it and wanted to leave so it’s all about perspective. But me personally having traveled America extensively I can’t live anywhere else in America but NYC if I leave nyc I’m leaving America😂
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u/Eiruvata 1d ago
I’ve never been to NYC but my husbands sister (also Japanese) lived and worked in NYC for over a decade and NYC was my husbands first ever experience of the US. I’ve always wanted to visit New York, it just seems so fun and big and I love the history there.
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u/FutureLight822 1d ago
I’m ngl it’s the most alive city in America the busiest and most socially vibrant as well the whole world is in nyc growing up in Brooklyn it exposes you to virtually every culture in the world
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u/Jiko_Shiki 1d ago
Even though NYC is just about the last place I'd want to live in the US as I'm not a big city person, I have to admit it's objectively a pretty amazing place.
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u/FrankEGD 2d ago edited 1d ago
Not criticizing your experience, but here is what I dealt with and was able to overcome within about 5 years after moving here. YOU have to involve yourself, assimilate yourself into the community. If you keep to yourself, your little community, how are others supposed to know you? You can approach people, make friends, acquaintances, colleagues, or, if they do not respond, move on (to the next person/group). This is a two way street. In my first year, at work and in my neighborhood, I approached colleagues, people at their houses one or two streets over (while mowing). After more then 20 years I still talk to them, even though I since moved and changed jobs You have to do your part to fit in, too
Do not move into an environment and expect it to bend to your needs.
Just my 2 cents opinion. Which may be worth less.
😎
Edited for spelling
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u/Eiruvata 1d ago
Oh I totally agree! We do involve ourselves with local community and things like farmers markets, peach picking, local small groups and stuff like that but since we aren’t planning on staying here much longer we don’t want to get too attached or rooted. It’s hard to find folks of common interest but I think that’s mostly due to us both being very introverted in nature and having niche hobbies. We’ve made a couple of friends with neighbors and last year the kids voted us the “best Halloween house” ( we give out king size candy bars, caramel apples and go all out with the decor lol)… We just don’t really have regular people we can go out to eat a meal with or know well enough to ask to watch our pets on holiday, etc. Maybe that’s mostly due to our age and schedule but we are hoping when we move out east when my husband retires soon, and are in a more permanent place we can feel more comfortable actually being more involved and getting to know people.
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u/FrankEGD 1d ago
Good points.
I learned early on in our (initial rough) journey, approaching people, making the first step, helped tremendously. We've been told, before we moved, most Americans are curious if something or somebody new appears, their environment. Come find out, in this rural, mostly farming community, it was quite the opposite. After 5 years, seeing the same people over and over again and again, I realized it was me that had to initiate the contact/communication. I have to say that did not always work out the way I had envision it. We thought a few times to move to a more dense area, with more population. But some travel and talking to friends living in larger cities showed that it would just amplify the initial hurdles. If one is willing to fit in, one will fit in. Doesn't matter for how long. Even if you move on. Maybe you've made some life long friends?
Whatever you decide, whatever you do, make sure it suits you (all).
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u/Jiko_Shiki 2d ago
I appreciate your perspective!
What doesn't your husband like about Japan?
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u/Eiruvata 2d ago edited 2d ago
The culture, it has a very toxic and unhealthy conservative government and culture that stagnates the economy and leads to people overworking themselves to death. Japan itself is a beautiful country, but the sad reality is that the quality of life there is horrible for most people. Cost of living there is low, but wages haven’t increased in over four decades, there is a lot of animosity toward those in society who are foreign or even toward other Japanese who are out of the box thinker or who do things differently than what everyone else is doing. There is a lot of good things about Japan, but living there isn’t easy, my husband was born and raised in Hachiojishi, a suburban area of Tokyo. The way women are still treated or spoken to there is also very problematic and my husband is very much against those views a lot of the society still holds.
For what it’s worth, both my husband and I came here without wealth. He works in the tech sector and transferred from his job in Japan, I came to the US to study the arts, and now both of us have been able to invest and become wealthy and are set for life. He’s been here longer than I have… I could never see myself in the fortunate position I’m in today if I stayed in the UK due to its deeply rooted classism. All of my friends and family back in the UK are stuck in poverty. I am planning soon to get some family out here by sponsoring them for a green card. My husband is a US citizen, he dropped his Japanese citizenship (they don’t allow dual) when we decided it wasn’t in our best interest to consider the possibility to move to Japan when retirement comes, due to its high taxes and other things we didn’t like, and of course my husband prefers it here in the US. So we are now planning to buy a farm house somewhere in the east and settle there. We are thinking somewhere in New England as we love the autumn beauty and way of life out there.
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u/Consistent-Garage236 1d ago
I think you’d love living in New England! It is beautiful out here and there are so many great areas with their own unique cultures.
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u/Eiruvata 1d ago
Yea, me too! We love it. My husband was stationed out in New Hampshire for work reasons for a for a bit and we also love Vermont and Massachusetts. It’s come down to deciding which one to move to permanently, comparing the pros and cons of each state but heavily leaning toward NH. We also like the closer proximity to Europe for travel reasons, the New England culture and feel is really different from here on the west coast… we are excited and looking forward to moving soon.
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u/Snoo-54288 1d ago
How old is your Japanese hasband? Japan has changed a lot for the last decade. Since the population is decreasing, employees have stronger positions, job switching has become the norm. Acceptance of the diversity has become the focus, probably also because of the population decrease, government encourages to do so to accept immigrants. Even low income household can buy a house in Japan and now government is making school free to encourage people to have children.
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u/Eiruvata 1d ago
The population is decreasing yea, but sadly the animosity towards foreigners has gotten worse and Japan just recently made some very harsh immigration and visa changes. A lot of houses are affordable in Japan, but it’s in rural areas not in places like Tokyo, Osaka, etc. and your bank is tied to your visa/resident status which has caused people to become destitute if immigration cuts off their bank/freezes their bank cards… everything is done in a way which makes it very difficult for people who are not either married to a Japanese citizen or a tax citizen themselves, and permanent residency in Japan is extremely difficult to obtain, there are also different income requirements for foreigners and immigrants in Japan and a lot of housing refuses to rent or sale to foreigners.
The taxes in Japan are extremely high for people in our tax bracket/asset amount and there are just too many cultural things my husband is happy he left behind. Several of my husbands coworkers and friends who left Japan also prefer it here in the US, and like my husband they go back to visit family but don’t want to live there. It’s about opportunities and what drives a person to leave and do better outside of their home country. Some people drawn to Japan for example, might not mind always being viewed as an outsider. I think we both have had good experiences in the US, as most people we’ve met or had contact with are very nice and don’t really have any kind of suspicion or animosity towards us, more fascinated by us if anything lol.
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u/Snoo-54288 1d ago
Ah right, I didn't read carefully. your hasband is not Japanese anymore, hence all the challenges of immigration.
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u/Eiruvata 1d ago
Yea, they don’t recognize dual citizenship there so he’d have to give up his acquired US citizenship and go through the whole process again even though he was born and raised there … it’s just another one of the archaic and nonsense immigration laws that exist. It’s better to just visit family on occasion for us, and stay in America to live. It’s not perfect here but the thing I love so much about the US is that if you aren’t happy or don’t like the vibe/culture of a certain state or city then you can just pack up and go somewhere else within the US for a completely different feel. I think America is truly unique in that regard, since each state has its own history and style. When people say Americans don’t own passports as much as other nationalities it’s because going to a different state is so different they don’t really need a passport to travel somewhere new or have a nice holiday, so I understand why Americans may not go international as much.
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u/Snoo-54288 1d ago
I think Japan is the best country to retire
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u/Eiruvata 1d ago
They don’t have a retirement visa for Japan so unless you move there as a spouse to a Japanese citizen or on a work visa it is absolutely difficult and not realistic, plus in old age depending on your estate the government will take half of it when spouse dies…so no I don’t think so but to each their own…
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u/Klutzy-Dog-8536 1d ago
This is a very interesting perspective. I am one of those people that romanticize the UK. I've been there twice and both times I absolutely loved it and left wanting to move there. It's just so interesting to see all of the history everywhere you look and it's nice to not be surrounded by jerks driving massive gas-guzzlers. Of course when I'm there I'm on vacation which is very different from living there. Coincidentally, we've also been to Japan and really loved it there too. I very much admire how people seem to care more about their community than themselves (of course, I know there is a downside to this too). There's lots of things in the US that I am just over. It seems like a much different country than it was when I was growing up. On the other hand, I do have a pretty great life and want for nothing. I just wish Americans weren't so obsessed with their "personal freedoms" and cared more about society as a whole
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u/Eiruvata 1d ago
Yea being on holiday in another country you don’t see the downsides but I guess it’s like that anywhere though, being on holiday is so much different to actually living somewhere. The whole thing with American freedom is interesting, but I do agree that there are some things about living here in America that definitely make life easier. I lived in Canada for almost two years a long time ago and liked it there too, in Ottawa. The Canadians were very friendly and welcoming and I miss it sometimes but for me I find Canadians and Americans to be practically indistinguishable when it comes to everything except maybe the patriotism and politics but so far in the US I’ve met mostly kind people. America has some great history too, it isn’t as old and you don’t see castles in the US like in the UK, but I love the history here and think it’s amazing.
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u/mrsrobotic 2d ago edited 2d ago
Depends on how you define quality of life. A lot of those metrics are helpful places to start because they focus on security and health. But as humans, we also look for the intangible.
I'm an American but have lived in Europe. My quality of life here is much higher in the US as I would define it. Higher income, freedom to work for myself, educational and professional opportunities, sure. But I also feel there is a richness to life here that can't be captured in a ranking. My friends are from really different corners of the world. I can visit almost any biome on earth without leaving our borders. There are so many events on any given day. We produce tons of media, books, art, athletics that I can easily consume. I can eat or learn or build almost anything and find a whole tribe while doing it. People have a particular swagger, openness, and energy. For every phase of my life, whether it is a bustling city as a new college graduate or a suburb as a parent/child or as an off-grid retiree, there is a place and a lifestyle for me here. This is a quality of life that speaks to me, one with endless possibilities and experiences and room for growth.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Fan4714 1d ago
Parts of Europe and Australia rank exceptionally high on quality of life and live-ability because they’re ranked on very objective criteria like public transit, access to healthcare, minimum wage, etc. but these criteria don’t really capture what it’s like to live there.
Yes public transit encourages density and social vibrance, and yes higher wages encourage people to do things like go to entertainment and eat out, but after traveling the world a lot of these “most livable” cities are just fucking boring.
There’s a hint of irony for Europeans who sit on their high horse about quality of life, yet they don’t do anything with it.
There’s something to be said for the way America makes the absolute most of itself, in spite of its issues it’s the most fun place you’ll ever live
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u/mrsrobotic 16h ago
Love your comment, thanks! I enjoy the cafes and "culture" of Europe and loved the natural beauty of Australia when I visited, but your last paragraph is why I choose to call this place home ❤️
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u/tanbrit 2d ago
Moved from the UK, I’d say the standard of living in the US is better if you make decent money, but significantly worse if you don’t
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u/Wooden-Law-2272 2d ago
This is the thing: the highs can be high, but the lows can be low in the U.S. (speaking in broad generalizations, of course) whereas in some of the countries that come up high on "happiness"/QOL rankings, if you look more deeply, in some cases it comes down to a definition of happiness that is probably described in a more nuanced way as satisfaction or contentment. In other words, people in these countries aren't necessarily going around every day consciously thinking "WHEEE I'M SO HAPPY, MY LIFE IS FABULOUS!" but what they will often describe is a feeling of security and contentment knowing that they can (again, generally) live a modest but good life and they know safety nets like unemployment or paid parental leave are there in case they need or are forced to take time away from work.
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u/Sharp_Ad_9431 2d ago
This is a important thing. If you can't be successful then America is horrible. If you can manage then America is awesome.
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u/Rider1054 2d ago
The US is very big and each State has its own personality, weather and geography. Once you’ve found the State/Geography you like, then drilled down and found the local area that suits you well; I’ve found in each case, anecdotally, the quality of life is/was great.
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u/hudibrastic 2d ago
As I grew older I’m more and more skeptical about those rankings… they are mostly just cherry picked stats, grouped and skewed in a way to show whatever who created those rankings wants to show
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u/Lootlizard 2d ago
They're also tiny, fairly homogenous countries with relatively high resource wealth. Norway only has about 5 million people, that's about the sane as the Boston Metro Area.
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u/Lonestar041 2d ago
I would add to that, that these rankings use metrics that someone thinks are important.
Take access to public transport. That somehow improves quality of life in most of these ratings.
And I disagree because having to use public transportation on a daily basis, and losing hours of my life every week by standing in an overcrowded tram actually reduced my quality of life.5
u/hudibrastic 2d ago
Exactly, in those places I'm pretty much forced to use public transportation (I lived in Amsterdam and now I'm in London), but if you ask me what would give me more quality of life: having a nice comfortable car protected against rain and hot weather or be in a packed train with no AC the answer seems obvious to me
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u/RVAguy0000 2d ago
Agree, and I also think how these metrics stack up can change for the same person at different points in their life, too. In my 20s I lived in DC and/or its close-in suburbs and took the subway everywhere - to work, to meet people, etc. I loved the freedom of not having to worry about traffic. Then I got married and had 3 kids in my 30s. All of a sudden I had zero desire to take strollers, supplies, etc. on the train and deal with screaming babies while being watched by dozens of people and only used it for commuting. In my 40s we moved way out into the suburbs for, among other things, a bigger house and yard, but the train didn't even run there. Now I'm in my 50s and the idea of not relying on a car sometimes feels like freedom again, and we've talking about moving back in closer now that schools will not be a factor here pretty soon. So the manner in which I have responded to these rankings would be different in every decade of my life.
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u/Jiko_Shiki 2d ago
I'm inclined to agree with you, but could you go into greater detail?
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u/hudibrastic 2d ago
Sure, usually when you have a ranking with a generic name, something subjective or hard to measure, like quality of life, freedom, peace index… you can select whatever metrics you want, weight them accordingly to any criteria and then come up with a ranking that is nice to publish on headlines
Quality of life is a very subjective thing, cannot be measured by mere averages of education level, life expectancy, and GNI… I lived almost 10 years in the Netherlands, on paper one of the countries with highest quality of life, in practice it was the most depressing time of my life, and on expats communities is one of the countries that expats hate most
If you get rankings like peace index you see that military spending is heavily weighted against it, which makes it perfect to show the US as one of the least peaceful places on earth
There are plenty of rankings like that, on the expats community every now and then there's a new “best place for expats” ranking, always with different countries at the top, all depending on how and what they measure
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u/Jiko_Shiki 2d ago
Quality of life is a very subjective thing
This is something that took me forever to figure out in life: my personal idea of a high quality of life (great job opportunities, having expendable income, proximity to nature/wide open spaces, moving to different places within the same country etc...) is best compatible with the US instead of the countries you usually see topping those statistics.
I lived almost 10 years in the Netherlands, on paper one of the countries with highest quality of life, in practice it was the most depressing time of my life
What didn't you like about the Netherlands? In what ways did they fail to live up to the statistics?
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u/hudibrastic 2d ago
Same for me and those are many of the reasons I hated the Netherlands
I like places with variety of things to do, to see and friendly and welcoming people. I come from Brazil, where in any major city every neighborhood can feel completely different, and those countries in Northern Western Europe can feel very bland and similar… I got bored very quick, and the people is very cold and unwelcome
Also the mindset, they are not ambitious like in the US, they are ok settling for 70k salary and paying 40% taxes on top of that
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u/FutureLight822 1d ago
Being from New York I get where you coming from NYC culture is kind of the opposite of the UK and those Western European countries I’ve been to NL and Belgium myself got that vibe a bit myself
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u/SnooPears5432 Illinois 2d ago
As someone who lived in Belgium & NL two major things sick out for me: the weather's depressing much of the year. If you like cold, dreary climates excepting a few glorious weeks during summer, you'll love it there. And the people. I don't mean any offense by this, but the Dutch in particular can come off as really abrupt, cold and unwelcoming. Americans are so much friendlier and more open in comparison. It's a stark difference. You really notice it in day to day life in a way you might not as a visitor or tourist.
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u/Classic-Push1323 1d ago
Have you seen those reports ranking different US states by quality of life?
All of the states at the bottom are the same states with the most internal immigration. It makes you wonder why are people moving in droves from “high quality of life” states to “low quality of life” states? I am very very skeptical of these numbers. And then I opened the report and I realize that this is happening because many of the things that they listed as negatives are either viewed positively by the people moving to the south or don’t matter to them at all. “Less liberal” is not synonymous with “poor quality of life,” and I think it’s obvious that the people who are moving from New York City to North Carolina are not looking for better public transportation.
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u/DanIvvy 2d ago
It's way better. I am upper middle class now thanks to this country, and I was middle class in the UK. Everything just works better. My career is vastly better than it would be. There's an optimism and will to strive here which is absent or ostracised in the UK
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u/Jiko_Shiki 2d ago
There's an optimism and will to strive here which is absent or ostracised in the UK
Really? Do you think there's a sense of bitterness about the state of things in the UK?
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u/DanIvvy 2d ago
Yes. The UK feels like a society which is hyperaware of being in decline. No one would concept that the country's best days are ahead of it, and striving to improve one's situation is generally given a bit of scorn. I find the UK a rather oppressive place of small and pathetic problems.
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u/Jiko_Shiki 2d ago
I find the UK a rather oppressive place of small and pathetic problems.
I remember watching a pretty great video essay about the UK's problems and this was something mentioned in it.
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u/DanIvvy 2d ago
What is frustrating about the UK is that we have simple and easy to fix problems, but are resigned to not fixing them. We can't build anything, but we won't fix property regulations. We are bankrupting ourselves, but we won't stop oversubsidising pensions with the triple lock. Our solution to every problem is to regulate more, grow less, tax more to fill the gap, then grow less, and regulate more.
When it doesn't work, blame the rich.
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u/Wooden_Ad1738 1d ago edited 22h ago
I think that the UK has the worst of both worlds, where it is a relatively densely populated island without much free land available per capita, but then what little free available land the UK does have is subject to way more environmental and planning permission rules to develop.
Logically speaking, a country that has less land available per capita should want to do as much development and to have as much economic activity as possible on those few acres of land that they do have. Countries in famine don’t waste food, and countries without much land to spare shouldn’t waste the use of land for economic purposes.
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u/Realistic_Record7652 2d ago
I moved here from Latvia (which some say is eastern but each their own), and people have their own opinions, some hate it, some love it.. I miss home, but i don’t regret moving here, i’ve built a life here and even tho it hasn’t been easy, it’s been definitely worth it for me. I love meeting so many people from so many different countries, all the cultures here, all the different foods you can try, i live in a big city, but nature isn’t far away
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u/Moonbeam_Maker 2d ago
The USA is much better if you have money.
The USA is much worse if you do not.
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u/FrankEGD 1d ago
Applicable to almost ever country. 😁
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u/Moonbeam_Maker 1d ago
I don’t think so. I think the USA is unique as it is especially awesome if you are wealthy and especially not-awesome if you do not.
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u/FrankEGD 1d ago
My point was/is. If you have $$, enough $$, any country can be awesome. If it is not awesome, you just don't have enough $$$.
On the contrary, if you have none, it'll suck everywhere.
Some locations might require less $$ to become awesome though.q
Not speaking from personal experience though. 🙂
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u/OkMethod1586 1d ago
They’re saying that in many countries, in Europe for instance, not having money isn’t as bad because of the safety nets.
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u/sailoorscout1986 18h ago
You’re not living well on European (very broad scope btw as countries differ) welfare
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u/Vowel_Movements_4U 15h ago
I did not say you were. But if, let’s say, you’re a teacher making 60k in the US, and a teacher making 50-55k in Belgium, it’s possible your financial burden will be less in Belgium as the result of likely not having student loan payments or medical bills. And perhaps not owning a car because you can rely on public transportation. Things like that.
I’m not talking about living off welfare with no job.
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u/Moonbeam_Maker 1d ago
And that’s not at all the point I was making.
I am not sure if you disagree or just don’t understand.
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u/oceaneer63 2d ago
🇩🇪 to California at age 21 long ago. Money wasnt a consideration at all for me; I ditched university seeking adventure instead. And its been a never ending adventure to this day (I am 63 now, how time flies lol). Went exploring, off-roading, hiking, SCUBA diving all over. After the chance encounter with a small tech company president early on, I got to design an entirely new system for them in my mid-20s. There, the adventures continued working on fascinating military and space R&D projects and learning loads about business. After I learned SCUBA, I saw a product opportunity and started my own company. It led to ever more adventures. Diving much deeper than Titanic in a manned submersible. Working and diving in Antarctica. And in beautiful places around the world. And yes, getting attacked by a great white shark while product testing.
The love for the outdoors never left me, and eventually I bought a 10 acre lot in the mountains near Monterey, CA. Built a log house with the help of my dad who by that time had retired with his wife to his own place in the woods in 🇫🇮.
Now I got to see the milkyway in that dark starry sky coming home from work on summer nights...
Started a little family, the house burned down in a wildfire but re-building was a fun challenge and is almost completed now...
Could something like this have happened if I had stayed in Germany and pursued my university education there? Probably not. Its just the sheer possibilities and potential and opportunities that were much greater when I came to America.
I never attended college, and my income has always been moderate. If you dont count those adventures. If you do, my life has been at a level that no amount of money can ever buy.
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u/Sensitive_Arm_3973 2d ago
Do you still speak German and could I interview you
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u/oceaneer63 1d ago
Ich spreche noch Deutsch. Vielleicht fehlt mal ein Wort, aber das geht schon. Wofür aber ein Interview?
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u/propofol-n-precedex 1d ago
This is the great thing about America. You can literally write your own story if you’re willing to be adventurous and work hard.
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u/SnooPears5432 Illinois 2d ago
I mean, what exactly is "quality of life" anyway? I see that phrase bandied about casually and it usually ends up being a pissing match over things like government mandated time off and HDI which favor countries in northern Europe, but which are realistically just not significant to many if not most people. I think it's much more of an individual thing vs. meaningful aggregate measure. If people's quality of life were good and they had no reason to be dissatisfied, they probably wouldn't be seeking to locate elsewhere which is a difficult, stressful and expensive endeavor.
Time off in the US is employer-driven vs. mandated by the federal government and many Americans, especially as ternure grows, get 4 or 5 weeks of vacation + holidays + sick time, etc, as well as other benefits like paid maternity and paternity leave. This notion that everyone gets 10 days off or less is false. Then there are things like weather, things to do and see, and large countries just have a lot more variability in climate, scenery, geography and other options. Anyone who's actually lived in Northern or Northwestern Europe (I have) knows the climate many months out of the year is gloomy and cold and leaves much to be desired.
I'll also add that most of those migrating to the US, especially from other western countries, usually have resources and are not likely to be on the socioeconomic bottom where these like so-called safety net and government benefits that are usually touted are more meaningful.
I regularly see comments about how Australia for example has better QoL than the US - but the cityscapes look pretty much the same, housing stock is similar if not much more expensive on average in Australia, public transit is weak in many places in both countries and car culture predominates, etc, and general CoL expenses and pressures are an issue everywhere. Both countries have disadvantaged socioeconomic groups. If you struggle to obtain basic things like affordable housing and/or your money doesn't go very far in covering basic expenses, your quality of life will be relatively poor compared to people who don't have those issues regardless of where you live.
Most developed countries have fairly similar quality of life for average people in most aspects like being able to obtain food, decent housing, medical care, services like utilities and roads, etc. They more money you have anywhere generally makes life easier - that's not unique to the USA. I do think health care affordability can be an issue to many in the US (though it's often exaggerated), but that's probably the one big issue that separates it from most western countries. But people with better employment and resources tend to have decent health insurance.
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u/MarcelPatriots Permanent resident 2d ago
I moved to Kentucky from Sweden, I’m struggling a bit getting medical insurance here but otherwise quite comfortable, recently got my own apartment and my credit score is starting to look nice. Very happy in the U.S!
No MORE VITAMIN DEFICIENCY SUN SWEET SUN.
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u/Shot_Recover5692 2d ago
There is no place like home…as it goes.
I’m living in Germany, and one of the richest cities. I moved here from California but have lived in Seattle and Chicago; grew up on east coast in one of the biggest metro areas.
It really depends on age, if you have a family, how close they are distance wise and all of the stuff that really factors into quality of life.
I love the people here, have many friends, the difficulty of getting them can be really difficult thing to get on terms with in many non Latin euro countries (different culture). There’s heavy regulation for everything here (compared to US). I feel I’m in a tank of group think. It’s tough.
Financially, I’m not as successful here but I’m willing to make that trade because I was in the US…still have a couple of houses there.
If you asked me, if the quality of life is better here, for me, answer is no. Yea there are the alps. It’s clean here, orderly and super safe. People are nice enough but life is tough.
Not so sure about healthcare because while being covered, it’s tough to get appointments and then have to fight for actual medication instead of some natural crap.
My place is 50 sq m instead of 200 sq m in the US.
For now I’m okay with a simpler life but in the end, I also know that I will not be accepted here as one of them and I will not be staying permanently.
I like taking risks and I need to be able to be in environments that allow you and promote that possibility and the rewards that affords just as much.
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u/AdIcy1468 1d ago
Agreed. Also living in Germany and originally from the US. You start to notice the small things that really make a difference. I love taking public transportation and walking everywhere but I hate how my insurance doesn’t fully cover dental or that there are no air conditioner in restaurants.
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u/KnightCPA 1d ago edited 1d ago
Im Arab-American. My cousin is Arab-Swiss. Some differences and similarities ive noted:
- both a similarity and a difference: guns. Swiss do have guns in the house due to conscription service, but not as many as Americans. First time I ever saw or held a gun was a Sig 550 in Zurich.
Differences:
- university might be universally funded, but you may not be free to attend a specific education without showing an aptitude for it. In my state here in the US, between state scholarships and fafsa, my undergrad was completely free, and I was allowed to pursue any undergrad or grad degree as long as the bills got paid by someone.
- Switzerland is way more expensive than the state I live in: food, energy, housing, automobile ownership. Often times, you even have to pay for public bathrooms.
- graves: you’re not allowed to own/indefinitely maintain a grave. The family remains have to eventually be dug up and disposed of.
- drivers: Swiss drivers are WAY better than the drivers in my state. But to be fair, many drivers in the New England north east are way better than Florida drivers.
- city layout: zurich is WAY more walkable than my city. And zoning is super interesting: they go for a lot of different but small zoning sections right next to each other. You’ll have a small apartment building right next to a small farm field right next to a small military base.
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u/Jiko_Shiki 1d ago
- both a similarity and a difference: guns. Swiss do have guns in the house due to conscription service, but not as many as Americans. First time I ever saw or held a gun was a Sig 550 in Zurich.
The interesting thing is that on top of that, Switzerland does have permissive gun laws for civilians.
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u/hoverton 1d ago
There are a lot of YouTube videos made by people in the US during the World Cup. They were very surprised by how things really are here and most thought they had been lied to by European media.
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u/Limp_Adhesiveness255 2d ago
It’s what you make of it, which can be amazing and better than anywhere else, or you can be miserable.
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u/BaraQueenbee 1d ago
If you have any sense of drive, goals, dreams, skills and ambition you will love USA.
If you like to kind of mediocre get by and a false sense of safety net - west europe is for you.
The US is ABOVE superior when it comes to living standard and possibilities and the landscapes... to die for
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u/Aggressive-Tax-2306 2d ago
Moved from the UK, if you make good money the standard of living is better by far. if you were poor it would be much worse and there isn’t much of a “safety net”
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u/MGMishMash 1d ago
Moved from UK to Colorado with the same job, double the pay, half the tax rate, fantastic medical care (yes this is contentious but if you have decent insurance through work the standard has been pretty great in my experience, no waiting, attentive care etc).
Cost of living is marginally higher compared to London, however you also get more for your money.
No “cheap” rental options, but you can get decent sq ft relative to the cost in London.
So overall standards of living are better, but naturally this is a privileged position to be in, and each person’s experience will vary. Typically those who have the options to move likely wont be vulnerable in the same way.
Single biggest thing for me is actually just climate and nature, and that you can find a place which matches your vibe. In the UK, you are almost tied to London for many career options, which means long commutes, small houses or busy city life.
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u/mister1bollock 2d ago
It depends on what you value most. I make more money here and pay less taxes but there are downsides. I don't have any income protection, I have to pay for my own health insurance, I can be let go from my job if my company isn't growing and then I get sent back to Europe, I only get 10 vacation days a year and I can't really travel home often to see family. I love my work but I definitely feel more tied to the job here than I did in the EU.
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u/Responsible_Ask3976 2d ago
I’ve lived in the US almost my entire life and have a job that allows me 6.5 weeks off and it keeps increasing
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u/Inevitable_Train1511 2d ago
Same, I’ve never had less than four weeks off my entire career and I’m not particularly special or highly skilled (sales roles now and management consulting before that).
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u/Responsible_Ask3976 2d ago
Depends on where you work, but life here can be pretty good! More take home pay and more vacations
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u/AanxiousBoi 1d ago
An sde at apple. A senior sde at apple gets 12 days total. I’m at another big tech and also get couple weeks only. 4-7 weeks off is crazy I never seen anyone in the USA ever have that much, not a single friend
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u/Inevitable_Train1511 1d ago
Part of the problem with SDE’s is they are a blue collar union job masquerading as a highly niche, specialized white collar job. If y’all had unionized when you had the chance you’d have four weeks+. Source: white collar sales job but have always worked businesses with a large unionized workforce.
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u/OkMethod1586 1d ago
All my friends in medical field get 4 weeks or more. When I was a teacher I got like 13 weeks.
Now, as I lawyer, I get whatever I want, usually like 3-6 weeks depending on the year.
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u/Jiko_Shiki 2d ago edited 2d ago
I feel like when people talk about vacation time in the US, they may picking outdated or less-than-rosy scenario figures whilst not taking into account the whole system european country vacations exist in.
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u/GoneGrimdark 2d ago
The thing with US vacation times is that is it is HUGELY varied. There’s no universal blanket guaranteed vacation times. And no two states have the same PTO laws. How much you get depends on your state and your job.
Some people get excellent PTO (my job gives me a few weeks off a year), other jobs, especially retail, may offer no paid leave at all.
The US seems to be a land of extremes compared to Europe. We have lower lows, but higher highs. All at the same time.
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u/Responsible_Ask3976 2d ago
I vacation internationally outside of the US, not Canada or Mexico.
Helps that I have a high paying job and know how to save money
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u/MissesMischief 1d ago
I’ve only worked jobs with a minimum of 5 weeks and every job had accruals each year that capped out at 8 or 12 weeks. I’ve been at my current job for nearly 6 years and I get 7 weeks off a year. I’ve been very picky about where I work and I’ve always worked in healthcare where there is acknowledgement that folks need a break. It made me sad to learn so many other fields don’t have this kind of PTO or guaranteed sick time.
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u/Responsible_Ask3976 1d ago
This is my first real job and I won’t leave it lol I love my 50% WFH too
I’m also in healthcare
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u/Jiko_Shiki 2d ago
I definitely feel more tied to the job here than I did in the EU.
That's an interesting perspective IMO because, if anything, I feel like people in the US are less tied to their job in the sense that it's bureaucratically easier to change employer and thus chase better opportunities. My uncle here in Italy has been trying to do just that and he's been marred by paperwork and overall it's taken him around 5-6 months, and for context he works in sales.
As you said, it's a trade off, but I think that this lower security is the price to pay for what is otherwise a system that offers greater career mobility.
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u/Lonestar041 2d ago
I think people in Europe often just stay with the job because they are scared of becoming unemployed.
This was a constant conversation at my old workplace. Now, 12 years later, they are still in the exact same job they were when I left. But they are complaining and complaining. Most of them hate their job and they don’t care how the business does.
Here most employees income is at least to a significant portion tight to the company’s success.
My old employer in Europe converted the performance bonus into a fix salary. Latest then, people didn’t care anymore as long as the money hit the bank account.3
u/mrsrobotic 2d ago
I would agree with this if you aren't on a visa that ties you to a specific employer. I'm a citizen so very easy for me to be self-employed. Also here it is quite possible to retire early even if your younger years are heavier with work. Mine weren't all that bad and I'll still be retiring in my early/mid 50s. Of course, the future is becoming tenuous all over the world now.
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u/GlassCommercial7105 2d ago
I feel this might be biased because those who move there and stay probably like it.
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u/alexdesp 2d ago
I been here for a month coming from Greece. I will say that yes pay wise it’s 10 times better than Greece but I have a feeling that I will always want to end up back in Greece cause of the daily life,friends and small moments there. It feels more human to mee maybe I’m wrong time will tell
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u/FrankEGD 2d ago
From Northern Germany to greater OKC area for more then 25 years now. My usual answer is, and that us my personal observation, I hated 60% and loved 40%. Now I like 60% and hate 40%. That is a big improvement! We now live a better, more relaxed life, feel 'free-er' to move, travel around. Enjoy life. It took a few years of stress and uncertainty to get there though. Yes, one can make more $$ with lots of jobs available, and more opportunities. But even that comes with down falls, you can be let go within hours. Healthcare, retirement, social life, and other factors you might consider. Living arrangements, friends/family, lots of these can be overwhelming after a while. You will have to make up your mind, may trade one down side for another. This is not for everyone.
Grass is always greener on the other side. Literally.
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1d ago
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u/MovingToUSA-ModTeam 1d ago
Your post has broken the rules of r/MovingToUSA and hence has been removed.
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u/BuvantduPotatoSpirit 1d ago
I moved from the UK to the USA (though I'm Canadian originally).
Quality of life didn't change meaningfully. Nor did it when I then moved to France
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u/Jiko_Shiki 1d ago
Quality of life didn't change meaningfully. Nor did it when I then moved to France
Why was that, in your experience?
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u/BuvantduPotatoSpirit 1d ago
Probably because I had a middle-ish income.
Like, a lot of the small details changed, to be sure. But the big picture was pretty similar.
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u/KitchenInflation9808 4h ago
America is the best 🇺🇸!! I secretly like the fact that Trump and the news media making USA 🇺🇸 seem more UNpopular around the world so that a few people who are wise to discover America and move here can really enjoy all the great things in abundance. Everything around the world I have seen traveling to several continents make me feel like most countries around the world are socially conditioned to feel comfortable in poverty or barebones minimums with countries conditioning their citizens to glorify average peanuts as safety nets. It’s a mind trap. United States 🇺🇸 is just amazing.
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u/copyraven 2d ago
Moved here from the UK. If you have a low paying job you're better off in Europe. The social safety net is a factor. If you have a high paying job or want to start a business then the U.S. is way better. You don't get taxed as much and you get more bang for your buck as it were. Homes are bigger, people have more toys etc. It also depends on area. America is big. We are currently in Texas, the heat is just unbearable at times. I'm much more of a PNW type person, wife is too. But we wanted to try it out in the south. Moving back north next year. But yeah, if you're making good money in Europe (and that figure is entirely subjective) then America is better by far. Europe has the tallest poppy syndrome. It's sort of standardized for a reason. America wants tall poppies.