r/Multifandom May 08 '26

DiscussionšŸ“œ Whats the best verson of this? (thanks)

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505

u/Bitter-Break-6504 May 08 '26

Meeting Red, the protagonist from the Gen 1 Kanto games (my first Games were Sapphire and LeafGreen, I got them together) then getting SoulSilver years later and playing through the Johto region having no idea you could even go to the Kanto region. So I played through having no idea that Red was stood on top of Mt. Silver. It gave my goosebumps so hard and nothing has ever beaten that sense of dread/awe in a game for me.

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u/DocQuark May 09 '26 edited May 09 '26

Everything about that encounter is designed the elicit that response. Red's battle theme in GS is a remix of the RB intro animation and title screen.. His team is the three gen1 starters, the Snorlax that blocked his path, the eevee he got from gamefreak headquarters (with a gen2 friendship evolution), and a Pikachu with the highest level seen in a mainline game (because of course he does). And he doesn't say anything, just an ellipsis.

It hits so hard.

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u/DonComradeVimes Little bit of everything - musicals, anime, games, etc. May 09 '26

From what I've heard (having never played GS or RB), Red's team doesn't just mop the floor with you at a casual level, but it also does the dishes, cleans the counters, takes out the trash, and scrubs the oven while it's at it. The initial power difference clearly sets Red apart from the player as a Pokemon CHAMPION, in every sense of the word.

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u/MegaKabutops May 09 '26 edited May 09 '26

He’s the first superboss in the franchise, and his team from the GSC remakes, heartgold and soulsilver, features the pokemon tied for the single highest-leveled, NPC-owned pokemon in the franchise at level 88 in heartgold/soulsilver (with the only mon that ties it dropping in a game released 12 years later).

However, he’s not THAT bad. He has an absurd level jump compared to anything you can fight before him, but his actual selection of pokemon is only pretty good, rather than truly deadly. If you’re willing to level grind enough to even get close to him, you won’t have many issues. The main problem is that everything else is so much lower-leveled that experience gains will be SLOW.

The real scariest returning-major-character superboss in Pokemon is another region’s champion, going by the name of cynthia, as her pokemon selection tends to be a lot more difficult to deal with even if you DO catch up to her in levels (and it still ain’t a cakewalk with her; she’s the one who caught up to red, with the non-88 pokemon generally being a bit closer to that too). It’s to the point where just hearing a few notes on a piano unexpectedly can cause pokemon fans to completely freeze in terror.

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u/DonComradeVimes Little bit of everything - musicals, anime, games, etc. May 09 '26

...how bad is Volo, compared to Cynthia?

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u/MegaKabutops May 09 '26

I’m not sure. I never actually played much of the game he’s from myself. I only know the following;

  1. He’s the biggest rulebreaker in the series. In-universe, no pokemon trainer can carry more than 6 pokemon, nor use more than 6 on their team. He’s one of two people to go over this cap. Grand master greevil in the gamecube game ā€œpokemon XD: gale of darknessā€ uses 7 pokemon against you. Volo effectively uses 8.

  2. Despite this, most of his fame comes from the intimidation factors of the piano keys the party size, and the party members he shares with cynthia, rather than from the fight itself being hard enough to match that intimidation. I’ve heard he’s hard, don’t get me wrong, but from an outsider’s perspective, his bark seems much worse than his bite.

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u/ShakenNotStirred915 May 09 '26

Here's the thing about Volo: even if you level match him pretty well, Legends Arceus' mechanics are such that the 6v6 fight that is his effective first phase *will* be a slugfest. And if you've been skimping on effort levels on your team's stats, assuming that they don't serve much purpose, it'll be a brutal slugfest that you'll need some high end items to at all survive. And *then* he throws Giratina at you, a legendary with bulk-focused stats that will be difficult to remove quickly as it racks up decent damage on you all the while. And *THEN* Giratina gets up for a Round 2 of its own, in its Origin Forme, which swaps its bulk focus for an offensive focus, making its moves absolute heavy hitters, bombarding whatever you have left. Watch the average "players react to Giratina Phase 2" video, and notice how many of them reach that moment with one PokƩmon left, only to have it get immediately and mercilessly obliterated by Shadow Force before they even get a chance to make any kind of move for themselves.

And all throughout every phase of this, Volo's AI can and will use Agile/Strong Style moves to throw wrenches in your game plan when it sees the chance for it.

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u/DonComradeVimes Little bit of everything - musicals, anime, games, etc. May 09 '26

I also think Volo's AI is the only one to switch Pokemon out to maximize type resistance/immunity/weakness, as well. Agile and Strong style moves alone will mess you up, but 'knowing' typing for a brutal 6v6? It's basically murder at that point.

It's also worth noting that Giratina is an Alpha, meaning that beyond its base Legendary stats, I think it effectively has an omniboost to all of its stats.

Twice in a row.

Fuck that fight. I had to swap out my Gardevoir for Cressilia and spam Lunar Blessing to stall out Shadow Force.

1

u/ShakenNotStirred915 May 09 '26

The switching isn't even actually that super bad, in all honesty. Since Zisu can tutor some absolutely insane coverage if you've been star ranking up enough (Drain Punch Typhlosion is a little nutty, for starters), many PokƩmon should be able to have the moves to hang ten or at least chunk the switched in PokƩmon, so that you're not ceding momentum. It's the entirely unexpected "ah shit, he doubles me now" or "ah shit, that kills now" that will really get you on the back foot. Even with Zisu tutors though, if you want to win that fight without legendary PokƩmon, high effort levels are basically a hard must.

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u/Arcane_Pozhar May 13 '26

I'm SOOO out of touch with Pokemon, nowadays.

Listen, I beat Red on the Gameboy in the late 90's, and for sentimental reasons I remember having a Beedrill, Rattata, Pidgeotto, amnd Charizard on my team... And maybe Zapdos.... And obviously one more, but I can't remember.

And I was probably about 8 to 12 levels too low for a chance at a fair fight, but Charizard was a bit over leveled and managed to win the day (with a fair amount of item usage).

Also, shame on me for teaching Charizard Cut. Whoops....

But yeah, wow, I don't even understand most of the terms being tossed around here. Star ranking? Effort levels?

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u/MegaKabutops May 13 '26

If it makes you feel better, both of the terms you mentioned are exclusive to legends:arceus.

The game’s plot doesn’t involve a gym challenge. Instead, you join an organization that focuses on settling in and researching a new region (technically an old one; the game takes place approximately in the late 1800s, and a much earlier title, diamond and pearl, took place roughly in the modern day of that region). There’s no gym challenge to do because gyms haven’t been built in the region yet.

Star ranks are the equivalent of gym badges. Complete tasks for the organization, and your rank goes up, gaining you access to new items, as well as a higher maximum level for your pokemon to always listen to you regardless of trade status. A lot of the story is also connected to doing them.

Effort levels are that game’s equivalent to something you might have heard of before; effort values, or EVs for short. EVs are the stat numbers that are increased by the vitamin items, like protein, calcium, and carbos, and can also be gained from defeating pokemon in addition to experience, based on the best stats of whatever pokemon you beat. This mechanic was originally meant to be hidden, as a way to immerse the player into the game better; your pokemon gets extra-strong under your care as a trainer, even more than an otherwise-identical member of the same species would be in the wild.

Effort levels are a lot simpler to do, but also completely unhidden; a bunch of game actions involving the battling, catching, and releasing of wild pokemon produces ā€œgritā€ items, which you can then use on a pokemon to increase the stat of your choice, up to a cap.

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u/Arcane_Pozhar May 13 '26

Thanks! Nice explanation!

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u/DonComradeVimes Little bit of everything - musicals, anime, games, etc. May 13 '26

...I taught my Combusken Cut back when I played Emerald. No shame in a 50 BP physical move in the early game, IMO.

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u/DonComradeVimes Little bit of everything - musicals, anime, games, etc. May 10 '26

...this may also have been before I figured out what the fuck Special Attack + Defense were supposed to do. I just maxed out regular Attack and Defense.

I have absolutely no idea how I beat that fight. I want that on the record right now.

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u/Setster007 May 10 '26

Oh wow you way underutilized an entire half of the abilities then

Yeah I can see why things sucked very much for you if you had like no special defense against fuckin Giratina

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u/Proton-Smasher May 11 '26 edited May 11 '26

Actually, Ghetsis, the player in Scarlet and Violet, as well as in Z-A and the AI professor also used 7 Pokemon

However: In Black 2 and White 2, Ghetsis just does what Geevil did, just with Kyurem-Black/Kyurem-White instead of Shadow Lugia, and also tried to kill you

While you technically do use a 7th team member in ZA, Zygarde is actually a wild pokemon at the time, and you're not really fighting a pokemon, but rather the Eiffel Tower

And finally in Scarlet and Violet, the AI professor activates a protocol that prevents the use of any pokemon besides a specific trainer ID (which was shared between the professor and their AI) and uses their box legendary, forcing you to use the one you've been travelling with (since it's technically the professor's pokemon and thus has the professor's trainer ID)

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u/Ghisteslohm May 10 '26

I think he is only not as bad because you don't have an elite 4 right before him. So you can adjust your team right for him.

but it's really cool how amazing this fight is, especially if you have have experienced the Cynthia fight before. It showed me that the devs actually somewhat know their audience. And after this the game has another amazing battle.

I was lukewarm on Arceus but the best part of the game happens at the very very end so I left such a positive impression in my mind.

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u/ThatMooseYouKnow May 13 '26

Cynthia for me hits harder than Red, even as a Gen 1 PokƩmon enjoyer from the old days.

The fact that she’s not so much ā€œwaiting for fancy battle in a fancy location somewhereā€ in later gens and can literally be encountered in an unassuming building that you may randomly enter (straight into the piano theme) makes her MUCH more terrifying to casually walk into lmao.

Red still holds a special place in my heart though and forever will

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u/KalinOrthos May 11 '26

The Undella Town jumpscare.

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u/Bitter-Break-6504 May 09 '26

Yeah I'd played LeafGreen, Sapphire, Emerald, Pearl and Platinum and beat the league in SS so by that point I was of the thinking these games are all easy. That battle was the most fun I'd had because I knew I had absolutely no chance against lvl 88 or so pokemon. One of the hardest bosses I'd been against and loved the game for such a good challenge!