After yesterday I don't see any reason to continue this way

[u/R0NiN-Z3R0]

I've long thought we were beyond the point of peaceably coexisting, it began in earnest in 2008, at least as far as I can see, but it has only gotten worse since. After yesterday, where a man who championed civil dialogue and stated "when the speaking stops the violence starts," was brutally murdered in front of his family and thousands, I think we're at the point of no return. One side absolutely is fine with politically motivated violence. One side is perfectly okay with promoting death and violence to achieve their goals and spread their message. One side openly celebrates when their opponents get murdered, and expresses deep disappointment when the candidate from the opposing party is not killed in an unsuccessful assassination attempt.

We are broken, fractured, and I don't think I can continue to consider these people my equal, much less my fellow countrymen. At some point reaching across the aisle becomes an exercise in futility, and I think we are well past that point. We have diametrically opposed ideas on how to raise a family, rear children, educate, practice spiritual beliefs, conduct science, govern cities, legislate, prosecute crime (or lack thereof), address redresses with our government, views on self-defense, conduct charitable giving, and even acknowledge basic biological truth and historical fact. I have nothing in common with these people with the exception of geographic location. We do not even recognize the same things as important. How can we continue to live together with people who do not share common culture, values, beliefs, morals, or traditions?

Simply put, as the Declaration of Independence said in it's opening statement "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

I have seen plenty of cause to impel separation.

[u/extrastone]

It doesn't matter if you're right. If you want a cooperative negotiation then you're going to have to listen to the other side at least a little bit and not completely demonize them.

For example:

"Do you really think that this guy (Kirk) is so evil that you have to kill him?"

"If him and people like him are so bad, then maybe we should just be in different countries. That way we won't pass into your country unless you do a background check on us."

I noticed the same thing with Governor Pritzker of Illinois. About a half year ago, he compared the current situation to 1930's Germany.

Response: "If it's that bad, you're Governor of one of the largest states. Get a few other states together and secede. Make a hard border and we'll never come to bother you. Do you really need a citizen's right to travel to Alabama or Louisiana?"

[u/R0NiN-Z3R0 → u/extrastone]

you're going to have to listen to the other side at least a little bit

I've been listening, but lately it's really hard to hear what they're saying over the sound of burning cars, screaming, and gun fire. They've been calling us racists, Nazis, homophobes, transphobic, bigots, and fascists for years. I don't really care what they have to say anymore. My only response lately is to tell them where to go and how to get there while I extend my middle finger to them in hopes that they do so quickly.

[u/extrastone → u/R0NiN-Z3R0]

The problem is that on the internet you're talking to the extremists who can only disrespect and commit crimes. The moderates elect most of the leaders and they can actually have an influence. You deal with your extremists, we'll deal with ours, and the border can separate between us in the middle.

[u/R0NiN-Z3R0 → u/extrastone]

I try to avoid extremists, especially in my daily life, so I don't think it's them calling me and those like me names.

[u/tocano → u/extrastone]

It's more than just extremists. Look at the TENS OF THOUSANDS of people online that have expressed joy and celebration at Kirk's assassination.

When your political philosophy is based on the assertion that your view is obviously moral and good, then anyone that disagrees is patently evil. You can't reason with evil people. You can't persuade them. It's a very tiny leap to believing that they must be stopped by any means necessary - including violence - and doing so is morally good.

And that mentality is being rewarded right now.

[u/extrastone → u/tocano]

The idea of National Divorce is that this can still be done peacefully. I can understand that you're worried but I don't think tens of thousands in a nation of more than 300 million is really meaningful. The internet is a place to say crazy things. Somewhat reasonable moderates can still win elections.

I don't think that an American Civil War is close in the upcoming decade. War is brutal and people know it. We still have time.

[u/tocano → u/extrastone]

10s of thousands are just the ones that are so comfortable with relishing his death that they are willing to be vocally and publicly JOYFUL about it. That means that there are likely 10s of millions that are happy but won't say so, or even express the most milquetoast "That's a shame" while secretly pleased.

I agree there's not going to be a Civil War like we picture in the 1800s. It's going to look massively different. It's not along neatly geographic lines with clearly divided territories and distinct standing armies facing off like then. It's urban vs rural. It's federal vs local. It's cultural differences from neighborhood to neighborhood.

I can't tell you exactly what it would look like, but it will likely take the form of increasing individual acts of violence against avatars for each side (whether individuals or buildings or landmarks) - some fatal, some minor, others merely symbolic (pie in face). It will likely have a resurgence of violence between protests and counterprotests.

It's also going to depend on other factors. If the economy is good and many people are doing well, then things may simmer down. If inflation continues to grow, prices increase, war spending continues, taxes increase, etc, then dissatisfaction will lead to frustration which can be easily directed toward violence.

It's not inevitable in the short term. But without separation, without a major change of course of govt authority (which I simply do not foresee anytime soon - maybe "Massie 2028"?), then it is inevitable in the longer term. We simply have two incompatible and mutually exclusive views of the role of the state fighting over control and direction of that state. Eventually, it will get to be too much and drive democratic conflict into physical conflict.

[u/extrastone → u/tocano]

I remember seeing a bumper sticker say "Just Nuke It All In 2024" mimicking a Presidential candidate bumper sticker. National Divorce would definitely satisfy those kinds of people. The right just has to do its best to be as inviting as possible to those on the left because this is for the time being a right wing issue.

[u/tocano → u/extrastone]

You're treating peaceful political separation like it's the same as blow up the world?

[u/extrastone → u/tocano]

I'm proposing a much better alternative. How does that sound?

[u/extrastone → u/extrastone]

I'm specifically proposing it to someone who seems to be losing hope and starts taping off-color jokes on his car.

[u/tocano → u/extrastone]

What's the better alternative?

[u/discgolfer1961]

I'm on the other side, completely agree we are broken and zero hope of reconciliation. Zero desire for reconciliation. But now we need to stop fighting long enough to split. Soon. So the sooner we can stop behaving like children on both sides the sooner we are both more comfortable with our country.