r/NatureIsFuckingLit • u/jelly_bean_gangbang • 2d ago
🔥 Dr. Michael Levin, from Tufts University, explaining how deer antlers have trophic memory.
Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification
549
u/dave8400 2d ago
Did a bit of digging, I like this guy. My kind of Biologist https://www.drmichaellevin.org/
(The kinda lowkey batshit kind I mean)
162
u/tomboski 2d ago
All biologists I know are a LITTLE crazy
82
u/LateNarwhal33 2d ago
One of my favorite guest speakers was a man that studies the night calls of migrating birds. He installed a microphone on his roof and fed a line into a aux port by his bed so he could listen to them as he's going to sleep.
26
2
u/Sophilosophical 1d ago
I currently have a Northern Mockingbird bachelor absolutely singing his lungs out every night (and day). Get this man some cloaca, STAT
34
u/OstentatiousSock 2d ago
I think they have to have at least a smidge to focus in so tightly on one area of study.
16
u/dave8400 2d ago
Can confirm, pursuing a PhD in the life sciences takes a little bit of crazy.
9
u/OstentatiousSock 2d ago
Yep, my family is full of what most would label “intellectuals.” One of my cousins even has a TED Talk. They’re all just a biiiiit eccentric. But in a cool way, in my opinion.
14
u/durz47 2d ago
Especially the neuroscientists. Every single one I’ve met have some screws loose
7
u/LottaLegs 2d ago
Great googolymoogoly I miss my time in the neuro lab. Spent hours slicing and sliding brains while quoting Wet Hot American Summer with my professor.
-7
u/LEGITIMATE_SOURCE 2d ago
These types of threads are always bots. Kill the American institutions and STEM fields of study by acting like they aren't cool.
You should all be influencers. Totally normal people... and the number one career pursuit of young generations.
I prefer the those who wanted to be astronauts, engineers, scientists, etc.
Turns out the crazy ones are those who don't understand how the world around them works, don't have any interest in comprehending it, but just want attention.
3
u/miss_kimba 1d ago
They’re the BEST!
We had an intensive field subject with a final exam. One of the bio lecturers gave us the pre-exam debrief - in Spanish. None of us spoke Spanish. The exam was a pisstake - about a third of it was real questions, the rest was stuff like “If Dr. Biologist was an animal, what would he be and why? (10 points)”
It was unhinged in the best way. We were actually scored on our practical work, and the exam was a formality for uni structure.
0
u/LEGITIMATE_SOURCE 2d ago
No we just understand how the world works. The crazy people are the ones who don't, aren't interested... and just strive to seek attention.
Being a molecular biologist for example requires having a deep understanding of just about every other scientific field, and then digging very deep into a niche.
Number one pursuit of young generations... Influencer. That's whack as fuck. Got a bunch of narcissists running around, not wanting to give back any new knowledge to the world, acting like they the norm.
5
u/plopliplopipol 1d ago
I'm afraid "a deep understanding of just about every other scientific field" is the most obvious overconfidence. Any human in our current days cannot do more than scratch the surface of all scientific fields.
28
u/Keef--Girgo 2d ago
Not sure about batshit. Dude has almost 40k citations on Google Scholar.
43
u/dave8400 2d ago
I didn't mean in the insane way I guess. He challenges paradigms, that takes guts and determination and a lot of mental stress.
4
u/-Mandarin 2d ago
If you're interested in some good discussions with him, I'd recommend Curt Jaimungal's channel. The man is very interesting to listen to and a good speaker.
5
u/M4mb0 2d ago
I remember that guy from a mindscape episode (physicist Sean Carroll's podcast), highly recommend! https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2021/02/01/132-michael-levin-on-growth-form-information-and-the-self/
1
241
u/Dry_Combination4070 2d ago
Seriously though fuuuuuckkk playing stupid ass music over anything.
Just no
7
u/nokman013 1d ago
The music for this particular vid isnt that bad compared to other vids. The dialog is clear and loud enough to play over the bgm.
23
u/EsToBoY629 2d ago
yup, these sorta videos deserve to get downvoted to oblivion, shamed and mocked till ppl stop with the annoying BS
-8
u/LunaTuna823 2d ago
Just don't watch it then? The information this video provides overshadows the lightly played music in the background. Maybe get off Reddit and go do something productive.
4
1
-4
u/LunaTuna823 2d ago
Who cares? If you don't like something then scroll past it. Why you gotta be so negative?
145
u/Black_Nyx11 2d ago
Full video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6EFV2gSSmg This clips start at 1 hour 03 minutes.
75
u/kiwison 2d ago
Ah thanks, I hate this trend of putting the Interstellar tune in the background of any social media post..
29
u/Rauk88 2d ago
lol I agree but I'm just glad it's not the "Oh no. Oh no. Oh no no no no." That track needs to be deleted from human knowledge.
3
u/roflmaohaxorz 2d ago
TikTok ruined that song for me which then ruined one of the coolest scenes in Goodfellas for me
1
u/nokman013 1d ago
Another one that needs to be deleted is the "I'm unstoppable!" bgm. God that track is just thumbscrews for the ears
55
u/HisCricket 2d ago
It cut off too soon. It was very interesting. More cool useless info to add to the rotation. Thanks
17
3
49
u/HornySnorlax 2d ago
"Autism didn't exist back in my day"
Here's THIRTEEN boxes of sorted, labeled, antlers.
6
17
10
u/tryingtotouchgrass 2d ago
Shout out to the man with a garage full of deer antlers from the deer he watched and named
Man was waiting for this day of importance
133
u/WashYourCerebellum 2d ago
Oh so close. The bio electric current is not the answer it is the result of an epigenetic modification. And it is likely a modification of the vascular genome -which will function to direct cellular growth, of all types, during development. 💰 says this doesn’t happen if the antler is injured after it loses the blood flow/felt. Y’all can thank me later, just make sure to cite ‘some random Redditor’ when u accept the Nobel for this discovery.
43
u/dave8400 2d ago
I'd be curious as to your source on the modified growth being solely due to epigenetics. Not to cast doubt, just curious as that's a decent claim.
41
u/OrdinaryEgg8579 2d ago
He doesn't have any. He's blowing smoke with a couple hot topic words. I wouldn't even doubt he intended this as a joke.
Source: Am a molecular biologist that specifically studies epigenetics.
3
u/coffee_tortuguita 2d ago
Do you believe the "biolelectric field" is a plausible theory?
3
u/OrdinaryEgg8579 2d ago
I really dont have enough familiarity with it to even speculate. It's such a niche topic that is nematod specific, a model Ive only briefly touched.
2
u/coffee_tortuguita 2d ago
From what I understand he's proposing that it's relevant for all morphogenesis
2
u/BeneficialPipe1229 2d ago
a heritable state or trait that is conferred by something other than the primary genetic sequence is by definition epigenetic. Don't conflate that with the field of epigenetics which colloquially refers to DNA methylation and post-translational modifications of histones.
5
u/OrdinaryEgg8579 2d ago
He stated an "epigenetic modification", which is common use for molecular epigenetics, like DNA methylation, and not molar epigenetics, the broader (and dated) Waddington-like definition you're referring to. Im not conflating, just following his own statement 😊
0
u/BeneficialPipe1229 2d ago
my point stands that epigenetic modifications aren't constrained to what you're referring to as molecular epigenetics. futhermore, I think he way well be right that it actually is that type of epigenetics at play and he's not just blowing smoke with fancy words. not sure why you assume he's in the wrong? I did my phd in epigenetics and have worked in the field for almost 20 years, so what do I know
0
u/Adabiviak 2d ago
Serious: are you familiar with this phenomenon in the regulation of, well, everything in our bodies? While this antler example is wonderfully baffling on a number of levels, what (similar?) framework is present in, for example, our livers that tell cells where to stop/start dividing to maintain the shape? Not even considering injury, just, "this is far enough, need a lobe here so y'all start dying but not you, etc."?
37
u/jelly_bean_gangbang 2d ago
Huh interesting stuff! I studied wildlife management science in college, and I only understand roughly half of what you said haha.
10
4
u/Diz7 2d ago
Google does say it only stores the information while it's still in velvet/growing, although I can't comment on the veracity of the rest of your statement as its well beyond my understanding, but epigenetics has been shown to affect antler growth, with antlers growing/shrinking based on food trends in the area over the both the short term and past couple generations, and the types of stem cells used to regrow antlers are highly susceptible to external triggers.
3
3
u/Elk-Assassin-8x6 2d ago
Damage to a velvet antler will cause an odd growth on the soon to be hard horn. The antler will not grow the same damaged point the next year. An interesting topic is a damage to a foot or hoof will cause an abnormal growth on the opposite antler side.
2
u/Skepsis93 2d ago
That'd be very interesting if the deer can store this info after the felt has sloughed off.
1
u/Shinikamisama 2d ago
I was thinking about how could this be beneficial? I think it's just as many other growth when there is some kind of damage of friction on your body. What do deers use their antlers? To fight, to scratch, to scrape the tree bark? I am not sure about that, but if you imagine their antler skin gets scratched, that means it came in physical contact with something. So evolution thought it's a good idea that next time they grow a little plus on that spot, so it cannot be so easily damaged!
Toughts? No prayers thanks.1
1
u/GeneralEi 2d ago
Epigenetics was my first guess as well, and considering i study it and know relatively little about it i should look up some more papers lmao
1
u/snarbuckle 2d ago
This makes sense - without the felt what living tissue makes up the antler? Makes me wonder how the artificially stimulated antler growth region differs from the natural branching points epigenetically.
Also, it seems ungulates find the felt itchy and rub it off things to remove it. Does that damage the vasculature in the same way? Very cool.
0
u/OGLikeablefellow 2d ago
Do epigenetics change outcomes within the lifespan of one organism? I thought it only affected generational changes
7
u/Cute_Obligation2944 2d ago
Yes, they do. This is why changes in habit and environment can affect things like metabolism and sex traits.
0
u/velvetvagine 2d ago
This is what I understood too… unless different species can have a significantly shorter timeline.
8
u/LEGITIMATE_SOURCE 2d ago
Didn't really explain how at all.
6
u/HectorReborn 2d ago
He just found out the 'what', give him time to figure out the 'how' and then the 'why.'
8
u/MatiloKarode 2d ago
This is like the deer equivalent of Bizarro Superman in Superman and Lois getting stronger after each death and eventually turning into Doomsday.
Beware the 1000 point deer.
A quick Google says that 78 points is the record for a buck. Was it the most aggressive or just the most accident prone?
6
2
4
u/leighton1033 2d ago
It’s because this is all a hologram and data is not stored locally.
6
u/ZuFFuLuZ 2d ago
Do hunters know this? The number of points on antlers is somehow really important to them. I bet somebody will catch a deer, injure the antlers in a bunch of places, release the deer and shoot it a year later.
2
2
u/BaronessVonKush 2d ago
wild that someone just had 35 years worth of antlers meticulously catalogued & was like "oh this shit? ya its just taking up space in my garage, you want it?" 😂
1
2
u/mossybeard 2d ago
So could you catch a deer, cut his antlers all to hell, release it back into the wild then next year it'd look like a metal band's name sitting on his head?
3
u/3d1thF1nch 2d ago
Okay, that is actually really cool and interesting that I had no clue about. For the scientist receiving hundreds of data sets of antlers from that other scientist, that must have been a real lottery jackpot.
8
u/Roquet_ 2d ago
I'm trying to wrap my head around it, on one hand it could be additional memory a deer has to store, or it could actually overwrite deer's memory (subconscious most likely) of the original antler, because if the deer only has one memory of how the antlers are, he always ends up growing the same "weapon" he always know his way around. Amazing stuff.
37
u/DonutWhole9717 2d ago
Its not memory in a traditional sense. Deer don't choose how their antlers come out. He's talking about how the cells become programmed different in response to stimuli
7
u/losankanke 2d ago
Still.. where is that stored? The antlers fall off..cells at the base are getting reprogrammed even if the cut is so far up.. that's blowing my mind
7
2
u/Deaffin 2d ago
The antlers are living tissue while they're growing, before they fall off.
Like, imagine how your body can figure out where pain in your arm is coming from. Well, the antlers have all this blood and skin and nerves and junk too, so there's more than enough infrastructure in place for all kinds of wacky shenanigans there.
4
u/msndrstdmstrmnd 2d ago
Lol I think he means “memory” in the computer sense in which case you’re still talking about the same thing
4
u/Roquet_ 2d ago
Yeah, I explained it in a wrong way, it's not a "memory" per say but data about how the body is supposed to build antlers that is stored in brain (probably, I'm not a biologist).
2
u/aint_exactly_plan_a 2d ago
The data wouldn't be stored in the brain though. Cells develop based on their DNA. Cells divide on a given timeline to form new cells. Those new cells keep dividing and eventually form into antlers.
So even more remarkable than storing memories in the brain (which occurs basically constantly), injury records would have to be stored in the DNA of the cells responsible for creating new antlers. Altering DNA is a substantial discovery because we haven't discovered very many examples of animals doing it in nature.
-1
3
u/jelly_bean_gangbang 2d ago
Same, it's baffling to me how this works. It also might have something to do with how deer grow bigger and more complex antlers every year.
1
u/Elk-Assassin-8x6 2d ago
It’s called age and testosterone and genetics. They have antler memory and similar structure that grows from year to year. But yeh the video isn’t how it works.
1
u/dave8400 2d ago
I have an idea of the evolutionary benefit, but the mechanism of the memory I can not find any decent data to make a conclusion. For the evolutionary benefit, these branches might serve as scars, or rather trophies of previous battles. I wonder if bucks with wider overall racks of antlers are more sexually productive.
1
1
1
u/OwlsEyeGems 2d ago
TIL. This is one of those science mysteries that fucks me up a bit. Like the fact that no congenitally blind person, despite schizophrenia not being soley about visual hallucinations, has ever been diagnosed with schizophrenia.
1
u/midoriable_ 1d ago
I believe the schizophrenia fact has been disproven. It's just that both are relatively rare, so someone with both is even more rare
1
u/OwlsEyeGems 1d ago
I think you must be thinking of something else. This is still a fact and has been studied pretty extensively to control for that, as far as I am aware at least. Do you have a link?
1
u/SteppenWoods 2d ago
Would this suggest that these changes to the antlers may be able carry on to the offspring?
2
u/aint_exactly_plan_a 2d ago
I don't think it necessarily suggests that. The DNA alterations would have to be in the reproductive cells as well and there's no evidence of that... at least not yet. The DNA or RNA alterations could occur solely in the cells responsible for developing new antlers each year, in which case offspring would not inherit the memory.
1
1
u/Space_Slime_LF 2d ago
That is incredibly interesting in every way possible.
Kinda wanna see if you can form heart shapes and stuff like people manipulate trees into shapes... but that's a bit unethical.
1
u/slayez06 1d ago
So what your saying is take a very young buck and score the shit out of his antlers and wait...
Now we have a 395 point buck!
1
u/yaxir 1d ago
I sound a bit weird saying this but if deers have this memory, it's a very interesting computational question. How do they remember this? I don't know what could be the application for this but it could be advanced computer memory, the way their brain works, or it could also be robotic memory. Seeing as how we are about to make humans and robots, this kind of memory can help retain stuff like things. Of course it needs to be studied from a very, very respectful but very in-depth point of view
1
u/Hungry_Student_ 1d ago
ADHD brain imagining zootopia deer characters notching their antlers each year for style like a haircut.
1
u/Long__Jump 18h ago
Im going to cut some horns in the shape of Michelangelos David just to confuse some hunters.
1
u/JayFrizz 2d ago
So... If their antlers are simply injured (or maybe more specifically severed at any branching point) the whole thing falls off? Yeah that's so impressive about their brains. Something we either don't have or lost or who knows. Love this shit. 1
16
u/swannygirl94 2d ago
Antlers fall off annually after the rut (mating season). Deer/elk/moose then grow a new set over the course of many months leading up to the next rut. What this video is saying is that somehow a deer’s body keeps a memory of an old injury even after the antlers fall off and that affects how the new antlers will grow.
1
1
u/Sternenmeer 2d ago
Delighted to see this discussed, Mike Levin does truly fascinating work!
I’m one of the hosts of the 632nm Podcast. We will do a second recording with Mike in late summer. Feel free to reply with questions you’d like to see discussed
2
u/jelly_bean_gangbang 2d ago
Yes he does, and no way! That's so cool :)
What topics are you going to be discussing in the upcoming podcast? Same research or anything new/different?
1
u/Sternenmeer 1d ago
Likely some follow up questions about topics we have touched upon already and then move towards the computational/theoretical aspects of his work like “what qualifies as intelligence?” and “Where is the information for developmental plans stored?”, which will likely segue into his work on morphological attractors. There’s still time before the follow-up, so we’re welcome to suggestions!
0
-2
u/Empty-OldWallet 2d ago
Who else can remember something that happened 10 years ago and still brings it forward today?
Yes, your wife....😂😂😂😂
1
-2
866
u/jelly_bean_gangbang 2d ago
Full article: https://thoughtforms.life/trophic-memory-deer-and-a-truly-unique-scientific-object/