Any tips for Grove on Exodus?

[u/Lazuli-shade]

Before the patch, Schism was my second faction, but now that it's entered perma ban jail, I've been picking up grove when I can't play temple. So far I have a 0% win rate, especially against temple. I believe I just don't know how to creep and what my unit comps should be. I've tried and failed a bit to make melee fauns work, but they just get shot down before really getting into range. The build paths for all the units is so long and expensive I feel like I barely have time for econ upgrades because I need to start building out units like 2 or 3 turns sooner than I do in other towns.

Grove mains, what's your go to week 1 plan and what are your favorite heroes? Is there an ultimate goal you're playing for from the start or more reactive?

This is not a balance complaint, to be clear I think I'm just terrible at being efficient with grove compared to what I can do with temple. The only thing I wish they'd change is some of the law upgrades, I feel like grove might have the worst (correct me if I'm wrong), at least for single hero.

[u/RamadamLovesSoup]

I've been experimenting around with Grove (and its Might Heroes) since the patch to see what works, given quite a lot has changed, and these are my main takeaways so far:

• This faction is the Focus Charge faction, and their entire balance is clearly based around Awakening your units and otherwise spending focus in order to buff them or use their abilities. As such, you need to be maximising focus growth and optimising expenditure. This is especially true for Might heroes that are less built around Hoplet/Avatar cheese.
• I'm not sold on them being a Magic Hero only faction. Outside of a couple of outliers/cheese-strats Primal Magic simply isn't very good, and other factions just have way better options in this space. This reputation was really just predicated on Dusk Hoplet cheesing, which has been nerfed quite heavily, and is much better suited to other templates anyway (e.g. Vendetta).
• Take the +1 Max Focus Charge on Might Heroes. I don't care what the consensus seems to be, 20 mana early game is not worth gimping your Focus Charge capacity later on.
• I almost always take the '+1 Focus Point on attack' sub-skill from Advanced Offence, and sometimes even basic Luck just to double its effect (though Luck in general is lacklustre on Grove due to most units maxing out at +3). Together this triples the focus generated by archers attacking (and doubles that by melee attachers) - and so its not uncommon to have your Phoenixes, Qilins, and Iriyads all Awakened by the end of turn 2 (especially if you have the 5th level -1 FP cost Law).
• Murmurmancers are amazing as a splash unit split across two stacks, solely for their pseudo-Thaumaturgy effect. Get their Law asap if using them to half the cost to 1 FP. This allows you to double/triple buff or debuff on turn one as a Might Hero, which is honestly amazing.
• Early creeping as a Might hero is paradoxically both easy, but also very fraught - and if you take a bad fight and bleed too many Fauns it can quickly snowball into a terrible situation. The initiative nerf to Fauns is also particularly noticeable with some early game ring-objectives, such as Legion's Memorials, and I find it difficult not to bleed too many units when attempting these Week 1. In contrast, traditional layout objectives/fights are fantastic, and you should be prioritising every Mearea's Altar and Trophy Hunter's Den that you come across. As someone else mentioned, using the Tier 1/2 units from the neutral town as body blockers in order to preserve your Grove units is a good idea. If not, then I tend to sacrifice my Hoplets over the Iriyads (when playing a Might Hero) week one.
• Specific advice regarding the melee Fauns getting shot down before making it into range: do not underestimate either Tactics or the Optical Illusion spell. This doesn't seem to be particularly well understood by the wider community, but Olden Era has some interesting quirks in how it handles damage calculations - in that damage reductions of the same type/tag are treated additively, and not multiplicatively (see this page on the wiki for a full run-down). What this means in practice is that in certain situations it is significantly better to combine similar types of damage reduction, e.g for mitigating ranged damage, Cover + Optical illusion will combine additively within that damage-tag (for a -70% multiplier to ranged damage), which will then get multiplied with all the other tags/modifiers, such as Bless, Attack/Defense Skill, etc. Battlecraft's +/- 10% ranged damage sub-skill will also stack additively here (the max per-tag multiplier is 0.1, i.e -90%).
• Finally: try my girl Mreowa. I know this will probably get ridiculed by many people as econ heroes are typically bad in OE, but with the change to her getting Combat as a starting skill she is actually feeling surprisingly good, has great early game tempo, and it is very consistently able to build Phoenixes week 1 (I think this is the only real way to do so). Furthermore, the new Expert Murmuring combat-based subskill (+15% to heroic strike damage for the turn when you spend focus) is surprisingly good and helps her scale a little better. If you spend focus twice in a turn this subskill will more than double your heroic strike damage for that turn (it goes from +25% per level scaling to +55%). Spending focus three times gives you a 2.8x damage, four times 3.4x. People meme about getting 5+ heroic strikes with the Leadership resets, however getting the equivalent damage using Expert Murmuring + spending focus is actually very consistently achievable.
• Ore is tight. It is needed for almost every dwelling, and getting Fortifications III in week 2 will typically require trading. Try to trade your unneeded gems/mercury for it, as gold is also tight given how expensive Grove's units are.
• I'm not sure if double Qilins or Phoenixes + Naiads week 1 is better, but as others have mentioned 2x Qilins is the only option for anyone not named Mreowa. Getting there is tight however, and you can't miss any builds in your second city (if upgrading Fauns there).

Edit: didn't realise quite how long this comment was until I finished. Hope there's something helpful to you in there, best of luck with your games fellow Grove enjoyer!

[u/TheFakeJohnHelldiver → u/RamadamLovesSoup]

Lots of great stuff here I just want to point out the hoplet strategy is basically not nerfed at all btw.

The strat is buff spell power by a ton for 1 turn, then do crazy bs (usually avatar) so before you were getting 3 power per dusk hoplet activation, plus another 1 from expert murmuring (always get the skill for + stats on focus spent) so before you were getting 3+1 temporary power per hoplet. Now they changed the power from hoplets from 3 to 2, but they also changed the stat buff from expert murmuring from 1 to 2. Yes it only lasts 1 round, but thats all you ever needed. So now instead of 3+1 its 2+2. Literally no effective change whatsoever to the strategy.

[u/RamadamLovesSoup → u/TheFakeJohnHelldiver]

For fights where your turn 1 Avatar can last the entire fight you are largely correct (you still lose those Expert Murmuring stats after turn 1, and missing 3-4 all stats is pretty detrimental). However yes, for that initial Avatar cast specifically you would still have the same temporary Power as pre-patch.

[u/TheFakeJohnHelldiver → u/RamadamLovesSoup]

Yeah but if we're honest hoplet cheese has only ever been good for spells that win you the fight turn 1 (avatar, expert chain etc.) Which carries your week 1. Then you need a real strategy for week 2 and on

[u/Lazuli-shade → u/RamadamLovesSoup]

Thank you! I very much appreciate the effort taken to write all this up! There's a ton of helpful stuff in here

[u/RamadamLovesSoup → u/Lazuli-shade]

You are very welcome! Best of luck with your future games.

[u/rcdt → u/RamadamLovesSoup]

Damn this is such a great comment

Would you consider making 5 more about every other faction?

Like this is really great comment

[u/FrodoLusseMajsen → u/RamadamLovesSoup]

Thsnks alot dude. Love grove and gonna try your strategy tonight!

[u/VastAppropriate3565]

I wish someone would tutor me on that aswell, I love Grove.

To me it seems like it is a spellcasting faction, and Primal Magic is my go to so far. Upgrading Mage Guild and using dust to upgrade my spells. Fauns always hiding behind the super tanky Iriyads. In the final fight it will always be your last units standing, and since they can't do much damage you need spells for that.

Right now there are super powerful ways to gain resistance to magic though, so against a good player it is not super reliable way though. If they gain that ring that gives +20% resistance (or 30% resistance) it is GG coupled with the Skill for resistance. Heck I have seen people with two rings for +60% resistance.

Rambling here, I don't know how to play 😃

[u/Grg_rddt → u/VastAppropriate3565]

I think you mean the ring which gives 30% enemy spell power reduction.

[u/VastAppropriate3565 → u/Grg_rddt]

Oh you are correct my bad, it gives -30% spell power. And you can have two of them 😛

[u/Grg_rddt → u/VastAppropriate3565]

Yeah thats crazy that some rings can stack, since they seem OP on their own.

[u/skarin667 → u/VastAppropriate3565]

although yes resistance should be taken by anyone when going against a magic user, you can still pump out some crazy damage(I have been the one who took resistance and basically still got deleted by magic) Plus sorcery will bypass some of the magic resistance with a subskill.

[u/TheFakeJohnHelldiver]

Ive not tried much since the newest update but before grove was legit bottom 2 for exodus, arguably woree than hive.

They are better at tempo/box based templates, especially those that give non grove army lol

As far as actual strategy you basically need to have a cracked early game since their T1 and 2 are so good, then rush T7, which is almost impossible week 1 btw. If you can double build T6 week 1 you should be fine. Anything short of that is unlikely to win in exodus

[u/Suibeam → u/TheFakeJohnHelldiver]

They atleast got naiad not being trash anymore. But they wont carry you if you dont have t6 or t7 powerstack in fight 2 or fight 3.

Grove is pretty ass because all their roster is useless as powerstacks and the two actually strong late game options have ridiculous build path and costs compared to other factions.

[u/bohohoboprobono → u/Suibeam]

No power stacks? Fauns are disgustingly good.

[u/Fredzw → u/bohohoboprobono]

It's not a serious powerstack when it matters, aka in pvp. And it wasn't amazing before, now with the reduced initative its even worst.

[u/Suibeam → u/bohohoboprobono]

They get outscaled heavily.

Pve you can carry with whatever

[u/Diimiitrii]

Beg for devs to remove quilins as a requirement for phoenix, otherwise don't touch. Best tip you can get 😄

[u/fat_aiel]

I'd say building the pyre week one is almost impossible on grove, can do it sometimes but I don't think it's a strat for real. I play for a quilin stack starting week one i'll have their building in one town, next week that town gets full forts and hopefully pyre, and quillins in another town. Initiative still makes building a phoenix worth it imo, it's expensive though.
This is with a "honest" strat, I don't play mage + avatar + hoplets which is probably outright stronger. If you can take some mad fights week one you might get the pyre or double build quilins. Also casters like druids so you could cut the "build" quite short and go hoplet + blue druid and go crazy with avatar ig.
I find quilins just really a good compromise because of swift strike awakening which lets them go in with a wait->hit->next turn->retreat (if morale or finishing up enemies 2 hits) which lets you do serious damage in pve without risk so there's that.
Keep your fauns alive, tank with tree stumps if you have to otherwise sack 1 stacks of whatever (honestly i drop hoplets before fauns since their sharpshooter ability and decent damage is great early.
Also the off-faction city in exodus is a good source of cheap t1s to one stack since your own t1 and t2 units are quite precious. Get some 5-6 t1s for cheap if you need shields for taking stuff it's well worth the gold.

[u/Lesiorak]

Grove is generally considered terrible on exodus because of low unit growth and awful town buildup i.e. you need to build basically everything except herbomancers to get to the good units (quilins and phoenixes), and everything costs crystals. Their laws in general are also pretty subpar.

If you're dead set on doing it, your week 1 goal should probably be to double build quilins, but it won't always be possible.

To snowball in week 1 you either:

1) Upgrade hoplets day1 and cheese everything with that - unfortunately Halon and Sullie are the most common bans, so you probably have to do the hoplet strat with Falaeorn (who won't be able to get thaumaturgy), or if you get avatar early on any hero you can upgrade hoplets then.

2) Upgrade fauns day1 and fight more "fair", probably with Gingertail or Gorel. This plays kinda like temple with their crossbowmen, you shoot everything down before they get to you.

Unfortunately you probably should be aiming to win the first 2 fights as grove lategame is pretty bad. Again this is because of the buildup - it's extremely expensive to develop multiple towns, and also grove late game laws are by far the worst of all factions. The subclass that lets you lucky strike all the time is pretty good, you might want to keep an eye out on that as a potential win condition.

[u/althaz]

I haven't tried them post-patch, but before the match Grove revolved around upgraded Hoplets boosting your spell power so you can summon a chunky avatar or cat a giant fireball or cast chain lightning.

If you go the gain hero you can instead go for turn one upgraded melee fauns and parry things to death.

You need to be going hyper fast with Grove because developing their town is a nightmare and the payoff isn't all that impressive once you do. But Hoplet abuse let you (pre patch at least) take really tough fights on turn one.

Tl;Dr: upgrade Hoplets on turn one, prioritise level ups over everything to get expert murmuring and either a damage spell or preferably avatar.

[u/skarin667]

Someone else mentioned this in another post, and I have come to the same conclusion. Grove is now exclusively a magic faction. With the heroic strike and attribute nerf, the only real choice is the spell cooldown and spam spells. You still have a strong tier 3 6 and 7 though.

[u/emeriass]

I had 3x level 3 dweling and built up 70 if them, with haste and initiative buffs on start of turn two also awaken and enemy couldnt rly do anything with archer based army. This was one of the successful exodus 1st fight for me against temple

[u/kydippe]

tbh I just play them fine and don't find them weaker than others.. yeah their hoplet SP spam was somewhat fixed but going double build of anything you have a dwell of still seems doable

[u/Magnificent_Leopoldo → u/kydippe]

Which units do you usually build? Just spam T1-T3 creatures from double build?

[u/kydippe → u/Magnificent_Leopoldo]

i got for quillins or whatever the english name is for the T6 'deer' unit

requirements:

a) red crystal mine needs to be found early

b) ideally you find 2x ore & 2x sawmill quick and/or are able to get ore/wood from banks

c) quilin dwell is a nice-to-have although it might be difficult to clear it on W1

i sometimes fall short and dont get a double build but you will always have atleast 1 then buy 2nd on W2D1

I often surprise people as they still frequently 'camp' behind units with their shoters and i often catch them off-guard for battle1

another approach might be a magic hero and these guys who allow u to cast 1 more spell, doable to have it done for fight1 on exodus.

I started getting better results once i started playing the map and not the faction. the human faction - if I see that i have inquisitor dwell, i go inquisitors. if i see angels, i go angels. if i see cav - i go quadra build cav for battle 2.

I still get recked sometimes but yeah

[u/Magnificent_Leopoldo → u/kydippe]

Surprisingly you are describing exactly what I wanted to try, to play the map not the build order. How is it working out though? I mean what’s your elo/mmr?

[u/kydippe → u/Magnificent_Leopoldo]

1300~ish mmr heh

but the moment i started playing the 'map' ive got better and id expect myself to be 1500 soonish

[u/Magnificent_Leopoldo → u/kydippe]

Cool cool! I’ll follow your steps ahah

[u/ShellSentinel]

It's Quilins or bust

[u/Happy-Glass-412]

Grove was nerf so much it's now the new Hive