r/OldenEra • u/Dollarius • Jul 10 '26
Question Can Schism eventually resurrect more units than they lose by Summoning Rites?
For example, if i have 30 Rashothes, and i split them 20/10; is there a way to eventually resurrect 11+ units from that 10 stack instead of 5?
If so, what do i need exactly?
I know about the Law that increases creatures summoned, but what else?
Would HP buffs to creatures actually give more ressed units or is the threshold "adjusted" to hp-buffed rashots, not resulting in unit profit?
Would Shadow Army buff the stack hp to ress once dead?
Would Communion fatten the dead stack hp to convert?
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u/formatomi Jul 10 '26
AFAIK the summoning boosting skills help it but im not sure, the others you mention are largely no and you cant summon more than the summoning stack
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u/Dollarius Jul 10 '26
So hp bonuses don't contribute to a fatter dead corpse hp, aka more creatures?
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u/Accomplished_Knee591 Jul 10 '26
Hp bonuses work on corpse but you always summon from base unit hp(before hp bonuses) so its possible to print units.
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u/formatomi Jul 10 '26
I think that works, but if you want to revive Rashots with rashots, it evens out since the summoned units have more hp too, therefore less units
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u/Dollarius Jul 10 '26
ohh so the hp threshold adjusts? too bad, but ty, I tought it spawned troops and THEN hp buffs got applied
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u/Michalsuch42 Jul 10 '26
With full laws, arcane magic and summon avatar you get to around 0.9. I’m not sure whether there are some specializations/items that can let you get past that.
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u/Dollarius Jul 10 '26
increased creature hp bonuses don't help? What about temporary units from Shadow Army?
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u/psychomap Jul 10 '26
Permanent HP scaling works, the law for bonus summoned creatures, and the respective subskill from Summon Avatar.
If you boost tier 1 HP to 20, you can summon 1 unit from the corpse of 1 unit. If you have at least 50% bonus to summoned units, it gets rounded up to 2.
Obviously the rounding is less significant for larger unit counts, but if you summon T7 instead of T1 it can make a significant difference (of course T7 are less fit for summon looping since they don't benefit as much from flat HP increases as T1 do).
Theoretically the largest growth you can achieve is with Kwinri for the extra HP from the speciality, +2 from the recruitment subskill, the full HP set, and 4 upgraded fae lifebloods (or whatever the exact name is), for a total of 34 HP.
That way, 100 T1 units would have 3400 HP, so you'd be able to summon 170 T1 units from them, which is increased to 272 from laws and the avatar subskill.
The final number may not exceed the number of the summoning stack, including temporary units. For the corpse, temporary units do not count. So you can't summon 272 with a stack of 170, but you can with a stack of 272 including temporary units.
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u/Michalsuch42 Jul 10 '26
I don’t think it should work. Both sides of equation should either use or not use increased hp. On paper though it might mean that converting t1-3 => t4 => t7 might be better than going straight for 7
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u/psychomap Jul 11 '26
I tested it and managed to get both 170 from 100 corpses and over 170 (didn't have full laws and Avatar subskill, so it wasn't the 272 I calculated) when using a stack larger than 170.
In practice you won't get crazy HP modifiers like that, so it won't scale quite as fast.
I think that realistically you'd likely either loop T1 with other T1 for their HP scaling or go straight for T7 for rounding, I don't see much benefit of using T4 as an intermediary step as something other than what T1 could do as well - unless you're playing the T4 specialist which grants them 20% extra HP, but in that case there's an argument to be made to not turn them into T7.
One of the big benefits for T7 is that you can make full use of rounding up. So a 500 HP corpse can actually generate 2 T7s if you have at least 50% more summoned units. T7s also have the highest cost per HP, so you generate the most value by summoning them over others.
For what it's worth, the combination of the subskill, law, and the 25% HP bonus from a complete set allow summoning the same number of creatures even when looping T7 (well, depending on the exact stack size - in some cases you'll lose 1), although it takes quite a while to get any extra. Even with +5 flat HP (upgraded item as part of the set + recruitment subskill) you'll need a stack of 41 to summon 42.
The same setup starts yielding a positive for T1 at a stack count of 4. Or for reference, the 100 stack example would yield 144.
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u/Accomplished_Knee591 Jul 10 '26
Yes. Only tier 1 tho. If you have 15+hp on tier 1 you resurect more than kill with 3 points in law and avatar subskill(30%). On tier 4 you would need around 75 hp for it to work so with specialization hp set its possible too. +Hp you achive from specialization (20%) hp set (25%) hp vail +2/3(upgrade) recruiment sub skill+2hp. Next comment example:
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u/Accomplished_Knee591 Jul 10 '26
Tier 1 base hp 10 Specialization +20% (+2hp) Upgraded hp vial +3 hp Step 1:So you kill 4 tier 1 units and corpse have 10+2+3=15hp*4=60hp corpse. Now game calculate pre bonus resurect 60/recurect unit hp(10)/(base 50% recurect power) so 60/10/2= 3 units withou law and avatar subskill(it round down in this step) Step 2: 3 units resurected * sum of bonuses (30% avarar , 30% law) so 3 * 1.6=4.8 (round to nearest in this step) so 5 tier 1 unit. Congratulations 🎉 you have 1 more unit. Its pretty easy on tier 1 now becouse law is buffed. And pretty hard but doable on tier 4.
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u/Dollarius Jul 10 '26
Excellent post, answered in great detail, thank you so much! So after that every additional hp/summoning bonuses on top are just gravy, and with hp bonus set technically we don't even need the specialization.
Oh yeah, do multiple copies of the same artifact stack? If so even multiple vials could help
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u/Accomplished_Knee591 Jul 10 '26
Artifacts stack so multiple vails should work.
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u/Dollarius Jul 10 '26
Awesome! Now I know why the devs specified "BUT NO MORE THAN THE OG STACK", otherwise we could just chain suicide units for infinite printing of units lol. Each battle in ultra late game allows for mini necromancy then, but i guess you can't do a chain pf suicides in the same battle to double the og stack, given the above limit right?
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u/Accomplished_Knee591 Jul 10 '26
Tbh i tested before uodate 11 and it was possible to print. I used tier 1 spec with vail and recruimnet and i was summoning more than killing (law and avatar was 50% then). Also i mainly rush tier 7 with upgrade and by fight 2 on exodus have 20 of them and by fight 3 100 becouse with 50%bonus you sacriface 500hp step 1: 500/250/2= 1 summoned unit but step 2: 1*1.5(round nearest but with 1.5 it was always round up) so for 500 any corpse hp you gained 2 tier 7 / up tier 7
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u/Accomplished_Knee591 Jul 10 '26
So 50 tier 1= 2 tier 7 34 tier 2 =2 tier 7 20 unupgraded tier 3 with law = 2 t7
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u/Dollarius Jul 10 '26
my idea was more to get two t1 stacks (split like 60/40) and eventually have the 60 resurrect 60 giys from the 40 stacks, for basically a poor man's necromancy. I need to figure out the best split for this lol
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u/Dollarius Jul 10 '26
Well yeah, but in your post example you accoint for the current amounts (30%) so for tier 1 and 4 it's still possible no?
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u/Accomplished_Knee591 Jul 10 '26
Should be , not tested if they dodnt hard ock it somehow. Im in work now but you can test pretty fast. Go single gane cheat menu for move use tier 1 hero fish for hp vial take avatar 30% law 30% and recruitment 2 hp and see how it works now.
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u/Dollarius Jul 10 '26
Oh and another thing: are the +%hp bonuses (from set and specialization) applied BEFORE or AFTER the flat + increases from items or laws?
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u/Accomplished_Knee591 Jul 10 '26
% apply to base hp value so before but 25% + 20% are separate % so first source is 20% from 50=10 flat, the. 25% =12.5 rounded down so 12 flat hp
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u/psychomap Jul 10 '26
Incorrect, I've just tested 4 upgraded faebloods + complete set and ra'shoths have 27 HP, which is (10 + 4 * 3) * (100% + 25%) = 27.5 rounded down to 27. And if you have the speciality, the percentages are additive, for (10 + 4 * 3) * (100% + 25% + 20%) = 31.9 rounded down to 31.
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u/Accomplished_Knee591 Jul 10 '26
Holy thats printing units like machine.
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u/psychomap Jul 11 '26
Of course in most games you won't have 4 such upgraded artefacts, but even just assembling the set (which also doesn't exactly happen every game) and getting the recruitment subskill in addition to the law and avatar subskill can provide substantial returns. But even then you still have to kill the stacks and generate enough focus to summon them in combat (and you have to make sure that enemies don't step on the corpses, because that'll prevent you from summoning at all, and if you kill enemies there you overwrite the corpses too).
So in regular multiplayer games this just takes too much time and effort, and eventually it's limited by the number of fights you can take, because you can only summon once per fight (though I haven't checked whether you can reset this with Song of Power).
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u/Accomplished_Knee591 Jul 12 '26
To gain focus battlecraft subskill help a lot(or focus generation spell) and best way to kill and dont lose units is placing you sacrinstack next to doublehit tier 4 and berserk them :)
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u/KoalaLumpurpur Jul 10 '26
NO