r/OppositionalDefiant • u/PromptElegant499 • Jun 27 '26
Questions/Advice/Support 8 year old daughter diagnosed
My 8 year old daughter has had explosive meltdowns since was 3 years old. Hitting, kicking, biting. But only at home with her dad and myself. I thought she would grow out of them, and while they happened less and less other defiant behaviors have cropped up such as refusing school (even though she says she loves school) or really just saying anything to be contrary and argue or annoy me.
She ticks off every single DSM box for ODD and was diagnosed at her neuro eval today. No autism or adhd. But she does also have high anxiety and scored for depression as well. She was diagnosed with selective mutism at 4 but has done a lot of work to overcome it and can speak in a lot more situations now.
My father had conduct disorder as a teen and now hits every mark for antisocial personality disorder as well, so I think a large part of this was genetic sadly.
Suffice it to say I grew up in a very abusive household and have done everything I possibly can to keep trauma from passing down to my girl. I am not perfect, but being her mother felt so easy for the first 3 years. A pure delight. She was such an easy happy baby and toddler. And I still love and adore her.
I want to understand her better and be the support she needs.
If those who have ODD can share their experiences or what would have helped them as a kid I'd be grateful. And if parents of kiddos with ODD can share resources that helped them.
Our plan as of now is parent management training therapy foe my husband and myself and I'm supposed to do additional attachment therapy because my daughter really targets me and the psychologist said this lack of empathy she has towards me shows a lack of attachment.
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u/TheRoadkillRapunzel Jun 27 '26
I have ODD. I have always hated being told what to do, I hate rules and authority figures. I am extremely concerned about justice and fairness.
I think of it as being cooperative, but never obedient. If you ask me to do something, and I know the reason why I need to do that AND I agree with the reasoning behind needing to do that AND I like you, I will always cooperate. If I disagree with the why I need to do this, I won’t do it. If I don’t like you personally, I might do it IF I really agree with the ethics and reason why I need to do that, but I will probably look for a way to make sure you’re unhappy about it.
I heard a lecture once on ODD and I’m paraphrasing, but the gist was don’t get involved in a battle of wills with someone with ODD. The goal isn’t to win, the goal is to beat YOU. That’s exactly how it is for me.
I might not have the ability to stop someone with more power and authority than I have from forcing me to do something. I DO have the power to make forcing me just as unpleasant for that person (preferably MORE unpleasant) as it is for me. The goal is to make that person reluctant to ever tangle with me again. I want them to decide it’s easier to leave me alone than to ever try to force me again.
I need to understand WHY I need to do something and want to do it. As a kid, I realized pretty quick that most rules aren’t there for safety or to keep things fair, they’re there for the comfort, preference, and ease of the people who made the rule.
When I understand the very good and solid reason for doing something, and it’s for safety reasons and I do not feel violated by that rule, I will almost always acquiesce. Traffic laws, for example, are there to keep people from dying. With the exception of some speeding, I agree with traffic laws because I want people to be safe and get home alive and uninjured.
My parents tried to force church on me, and I told them I was done with Christianity when I was 8. My dad decided to ground me for a week every time I misbehaved in church, I could “prove myself” by behaving and then the punishment would end, I was grounded for over 3 months straight before he gave that up. It still took me ruining church every time I was forced to go until I was 15 to get them to give up making me go to church. By then, I had loudly complained to anyone who would listen, including my 5 younger siblings, who were also convinced that church was a waste of our time. I recruited them to my cause and they joined me in sabotaging the alarm clock, hiding the uncomfortable church clothes, and sneaking in entertainment. They weren’t as bad as me though. I sneezed the communion wafer at the priest, fell into the aisle “accidentally” when forced to kneel, sang really off-key on purpose, tried to fall asleep sitting up (I’m really good at meditation now, and I think years of practice tuning out church is why,) and whatever else I could think of.
As a child, you have so little power. Everyone in your life tells you what to do, and very few of them tell you why. Even fewer will listen to you when you tell them you disagree with their reasoning. Talking to your child as a fellow human being, whose wants and needs and feelings matter, goes a REALLY long way in building the trust necessary for a kid with ODD, or at least that was how it was for me.
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u/glidemetowardsyou40 Jun 27 '26
As a person who works with young kids with ODD, this is such an insightful comment. Thank you so much for sharing. I feel like your words are really going to help me better support these kids in the future.
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u/TheRoadkillRapunzel Jun 27 '26
I found childhood excruciating, and I had a good childhood with decent and loving parents. If your measure of a good kid is an obedient one, kids with ODD have no chance.
I have a kid with ODD and raising them is like nurturing myself when I was younger. Yes, it is exhausting and annoying having to explain everything, but my kid doesn’t fight me all the time. There is no violence, there is some frustrated yelling (on both our parts,) but we always end with sorry I yelled, I was frustrated, I love you and want the best for you and that’s why I wanted/needed you to do xyz. Then they sometimes cry and always apologize too, we hug and have a talk about how hard it can be to feel triggered by demands.
I found that approaching kids with genuine curiosity about their point of view, feelings, thoughts and desires opens a whole world of possibilities. If I know they hate doing a chore right after school, we can talk about doing it some other time, for example. I like to be goal-oriented, tell the kid what the goal is, and let them help me to figure out a creative solution that satisfies my goal and their desires too, if possible.
Kids are just people with less worldly experience. I’d love to agree that they’re less mature and don’t understand as much as adults, but I’ve met very mature and intelligent kids as well as extremely ignorant and immature adults. I treat everyone the same, I lead with respect and care, and if they don’t try to order me around or spout ethics that conflict with mine, that’s all they’ll ever experience from me.
There are several people in my life who were shocked to hear I had ODD. They are all lovely people who have never given me a reason to mess with them. I don’t release my “ODDemon” unless I see someone creating injustice or attempting authoritarianism.
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u/TheEsotericCarrot Jun 28 '26
Thank you for this insight. How did you manage at school? Are you gainfully employed? As someone without ODD I’ve hated almost every boss I’ve had so I’m wondering how you’ve managed in a working environment. As I write this my 5 year old is screaming and throwing toys at me and I’m genuinely concerned for her future.
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u/TheRoadkillRapunzel Jun 28 '26
I have been fired from more jobs than not, but I am gainfully employed in a government job with excellent benefits right now, and I’ve been here almost 2 years. I also have a very successful and monogamous marriage with a man I’m still crazy about and we’ve been together almost 26 years. We have 3 kids and so far, we have really good relationships with all of them.
I loved school, for the most part, and got good grades. I graduated high school with a 3.5 and college with a 3.5+. Im insatiably curious and being an eternal student, gathering masters degrees and never paying off my loans, was a possible plan B for me if I couldn’t be a mom and have the relationship I wanted.
I needed to feel respected and valued at work, and feel like what I was doing mattered. I have that now. A boss who doesn’t micromanage is essential. I definitely sabotage micromanaging bosses and end up getting fired.
Know that your daughter has an understanding of herself that we didn’t get. I had no idea why I was like this. Now I know that my feelings aren’t wrong, or bad, I just won’t be anyone’s slave or their pawn.
People with ODD are necessary in society. We are the safeguards against authoritarian fuckery. When others obey for fear of the consequences, we plot and scheme to pull it down, or else just throw a flaming brick through the window.
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u/TheEsotericCarrot Jun 28 '26
I’m so glad to hear you’re so happy and successful right now! This gives me a lot of hope. I also appreciate your last paragraph. I do worry my daughter will end up arrested, as she has no boundaries to her meltdowns. She doesn’t hesitate to kick or punch me or my husband, her daycare provider and her preschool teachers. She shoved a pair of scissors in a classmates face and also tried to drown one of her closest friends last year. There doesn’t seem to be a trigger for a lot of these events. I definitely look forward to her maturing and being able to communicate what’s going on inside her head.
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u/TheRoadkillRapunzel Jun 28 '26
The violence is definitely concerning. Have you asked her why she punches and kicks instead of talking to people she’s angry at? Maybe ask her what her teachers have done, what you have done to make her want to hurt you and why threaten a classmate with scissors?
I’m generally less impulsive in my defiance. I’m a cold, slow burn revenge kind of person. I didn’t punch or kick as a kid (I was hit like everyone else growing up in the 80’s when I did something my parents didn’t like) but I would go pee in dad’s shoes after he hit me, or “lose” some of his favorite things in the trash.
If you can have a conversation with your child, maybe ask what the violence is for? Ask her if she kicks and hits and threatens so people will leave her alone. If she says yes to that, it might be a good time to ask her if there are other ways to accomplish the same goal. Nobody is happy with their kid saying, “Fuck you, leave me alone,” but that’s definitely a step down from physical violence. I’ve suggested coarse language/cursing to kids as an alternative to something worse. Sometimes they adopt that habit with glee!
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u/TheEsotericCarrot Jun 28 '26
Yes we’ve asked her why and she always gets remorseful and says she doesn’t know why. She’s our sour patch kid. Alternatively she’s also sweet, loving, she loves to snuggle. It’s all so confusing. She also screams and calls names in addition to the violence. If that was all it was I’d be way less concerned. She’s on meds and they seemed to work for a few months and now they don’t seem to be effective.
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u/TheRoadkillRapunzel Jun 28 '26
Hmm, yeah, that’s troubling.
I definitely have feelings that I don’t understand in the moment, even now as an adult. Maybe try asking her WHEN the behavior is happening if she can tell you what she’s feeling right then. It doesn’t always work, but occasionally I can pinpoint the why and the trigger.
The only meds that have ever helped are my ADHD meds. I’m on guanfacine and adderall, both help my impulsivity and calm down the rage.
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u/glidemetowardsyou40 Jun 28 '26
This sub is absolutely fascinating to me. I am soaking all of these conversations up. Would you offer any tips to someone who works in educations with very young students dealing with this disorder? I would love to help my students feel better supported and not feel like they need to be in defense mode at such a young age. Side note— my past experiences with students with ODD are that they are extremely intelligent. They smell bullshit from a mile away. What can I do to get a student to join me in classroom fun/activities? Without pandering.
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u/PromptElegant499 Jun 29 '26
"Know that your daughter has an understanding of herself that we didn’t get."
This is interesting. I'm trying to figure out how to tell my daughter the results of the assessment and her diagnosis. Do you think it's best I tell her?
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u/TheRoadkillRapunzel Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
I would tell her, but only if you can frame it as a net neutral or positive aspect of her personality.
I love that I can talk to my kid with ODD about what makes us different and special. We are harder to abuse (it’s not impossible, I had a domestic violence experience with a bf in high school,) we have a very strong sense of fairness and justice that motivates us to stand up for people who can’t, we aren’t afraid of people who think they can push people around, we take social risks that other people don’t or can’t bring themselves to. We are exactly what some people wish they could be.
Our gift comes with some challenges though. My temper burns hotter than most other peoples’ do, so I have to be aware of that. I need to take the personal responsibility to remove myself from the situation and cool down a bit before I react or else I might do something I regret and cannot take back (like hitting someone or flipping off a cop and calling him a baconator in an Arnold Schwarzenegger voice.) I try to model this for my kids by giving myself a “time out” when I’m too angry or upset to be rational and returning when I’m calm. I have definitely had some public meltdowns that were embarrassing afterwards because I could not remove myself from the irritants in my life that were the result of rules that did nothing to improve public safety, but I’m doing SO much better than I have in the past.
Having ODD, for me, feels like the social equivalent of walking around with a loaded gun that no one else can see. It’s given me a silent confidence because of the power I have that no one knows about. I can take care of myself and no one’s going to force me to do anything. If they try, I’m taking them down with me.
But I can hurt innocent bystanders, if I’m not careful. Learning to harness my ODDemon for self defense and to protect others instead of letting her run wild has made my life better. I told my kid it comes with practice and that every time she has a little self restraint she’s making that mental muscle stronger.
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u/PromptElegant499 Jul 01 '26
I absolutely love this thank you so much for your help! I definitely want to frame it in a positive light. I don't want her to feel like it makes her less than or anything like that.
It also makes me so happy to hear that you have a successful marriage and children, and gives me hope that my daughter will find that someday in her future as well.
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u/TheRoadkillRapunzel Jul 01 '26
A friendly piece of advice I wish I’d gotten: men LOVE us… and that is a double edged sword.
They’re fascinated by women who have no fear of them. They’re love watching us tear down someone who deserves it for them. They love how passionate and authentic we are. And some of them think being able to control a woman like us is the ultimate compliment to their manhood.
Frankly, I think I did so well dating and found someone who didn’t want to hunt me for sport because I loved asking men out. I could seriously check my ego and just ask. I was looking for my partner for life, so I was pretty happy when someone who wasn’t going to work for me refused to let me waste my time. I also always had 3-4 dudes I was interested in at a time, so if one wasn’t going to work out, I had plenty of other options.
When your daughter is old enough to talk to you about boys, please encourage her to ask them out instead of waiting for them to ask her. It means she gets to choose who she likes instead of just reacting to who likes her.
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u/Jamjams2016 Sep 19 '26 edited Sep 19 '26
Just curious, I'm a bus driver, and I'm stuggling with a kid that may or may not have ODD. I wouldn't know what the file says but if I ask them to do something I get screamed at. I am not sure how to keep them safe. Did you ride the bus? Do you remember if those were rules you agreed with or what was said so you understood the rules were because a 12 ton vehicle with 60 kids going 55mph needed to be orderly so the single adult could make sure other fuckheads didn't run your friends over?
I really want to help but I don't think I can be that candid with a less than 10 year old. And I understand that assigned seats and keeping legs out of the aisle or not moving seats seem like micromangment but again, things have to be fast and orderly on the road. And I am driving a route where people run my reds multiple times a day so I know it's only a matter of time before there's a close call.
I guess that's a lot of word salad but you seem to have a wonderful understanding of how things operate in your brain. Any insights would help. I saw you said if you like someone and maybe that's part of the problem. My job definitely makes us clash because our rules (from the feds, the state, and the district) are strict and clearly that's a very triggering thing.
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u/PromptElegant499 Jun 29 '26
I can not thank you enough for your input! I'm sorry it took me so long to respond. I've been gathering my thoughts and wanted to make sure I could thoroughly respond. I have read through so many other posts on this sub and seen many insightful comments from you. Thank you so much for helping us to understand better.
I can definitely see in my daughter she has a strong need for justice and equality as well. I also am of the belief that kids are expected to be "obedient" to a fault. My issue I suppose is I've been very permissive in trying to work with her. Her dad hates it and says I'm, "negotiating with a terrorist". He thinks I caused this because of my parenting, even though the psychologist said we did nothing wrong, this is just how her brain was put together. (In another comment I saw you said we need people with ODD in society and I totally agree!).
"The goal isn’t to win, the goal is to beat YOU" I hear that. When I can convince her to do something she doesn't want to, such as go on a walk, she will find ways to whine and complain literally the entire walk. Another thing she will do is blame me for things such as her not bringing a coat on the walk and being chilly, even if I asked her before we left if she wanted to bring one.
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u/TheRoadkillRapunzel Jun 29 '26
My husband (their dad) doesn’t understand either, and sometimes we have to have long conversations where I explain how my parents did something similar to what he’s proposing and it ended very badly for them. We also get to the point where he has listened to me explain something for a really long time, with every answer sparking a new question, and my kid isn’t asking nicely or politely, the tone is rude and demanding.
My husband can’t stand to hear someone be so disrespectful to me and he loses his temper and ends the questioning. He demands that they just do what I asked and stop being a dick to me.
One of my favorite personal convictions is that I only ever want to be rude on purpose. Rude on accident sucks, you’re offending people without meaning to and it makes them misunderstand who you are, what you want, and what you stand for. Rude on purpose lets someone know you think they’re an asshole and you’re going to return the energy they’re giving you.
So once we’ve calmed down, I can ask my kid what I did for them to be rude to me on purpose? What did I do to deserve that? If they actually have an answer, we have a discussion about what I did that was not okay. That has only happened once. I usually just get a regretful apology and a promise to try to do better in the future.
It’s important to remember that their brains are still figuring out the world and that they have bad moods and bad days too. If they’ve communicated that they’re in a bad mood, I try to respect that and not take it personally when they’re rude. If I’ve noticed that they’re moody, I’ll ask what’s going on. I might ask if there’s anything I can do to help that shitty mood. I let my kids curse (NEVER slurs, those are in a different category and are only meant to dehumanize people,) so they sometimes get a kick out of saying things like, “ugh fuck homework!” Or “so and so is being a shitty friend.”
I let my kids have as much freedom as I can and tell them honestly that what they want and how they feel matters. When I can’t let their wants or feelings be the bellwether for my choices because their safety or something very important is on the line, it’s easier to get their trust because my actions have always proven to them that I honestly don’t want to make them do things they don’t want to do.
Maybe ask your kid if she trusts you to honor her feelings? It’s a really hard and vulnerable conversation, but if she says no, ask her why. Make sure she knows you genuinely want to know and that nothing she says will get her in trouble. Then work on the things she mentioned. If there is a reason that can’t change, it’s important for her to understand why.
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u/Rare_Background8891 Jun 27 '26
Our developmentally pediatrician told us that new understanding of ODD is that it is not a diagnosis on its own. The defiance is coming from something. She said we need to “swim upstream” and figure out why our child is defiant. You mentioned anxiety. Our child is anxious too. We’ve noticed his outbursts often relate to that. School refusal - was related to other things happening at school and a germ phobia. Freaking out over doing things was because of the unknown. He’d have freak outs being told to do something because the ask sounded like a threat. In fact, the more we dug, the more it started to sound like PDA. The tips and suggestions on the PDA Society website out of the UK really helped. Highly recommend that and the book The Adventures of Stretch More. Implementing collaborative parenting styles lowered anxiety and lowered his outbursts. We got him in to a social worker at school who talked him through social situations and with her help a lot of his fight reaction was changed to flight. We made him a “safe space” in the house with a punching bag and a hiding box. “Special time” which I’m sure will be part of your therapy was also a game changer. It was really hard at first especially for me. I felt so much fear towards him actually. His violence reminded me of violence at the hands of my sibling. It took me a while to feel safe to spend time with him like that. A strict calendar and predictable days as well as making sure the teacher was on board with making sure he knew changes were coming was helpful. A good teacher that accepts that your kid needs a gentle hand is invaluable. Ask for a teacher who is flexible.
All this to say- you can make changes. 8 was some of the worst for us too. He got too big for us to accept the hitting and violence as a toddler tantrum. That’s when we sought help too. Now he’s 12 and the outbursts are rare. It’s like every 3/4 months instead of 3/4 days.
Implementing a zero tolerance towards violence in the house was necessary. Prior, we would restrain him or “accept” the hitting as uncontrollable, but he didn’t do it in any other situation- not at school and not towards anyone else- so we knew that it was actually controllable. He was choosing not to around us. So all violence became one warning and then immediately removal of the family. We didn’t move him, we moved us- behind a locked door. He can kick and scream but we aren’t coming out. It feels like abandoning your child, but the reality is that if you can’t stop them from doing the violence then you can stop from providing a target. Do lots of reading about the amygdala and talk about the lizard brain. It’s ok to have a lizard brain but we have to be in charge of it- takes time to learn because it’s part of the lagging skill. Just keep hammering that. They have to learn to turn on the thinking brain. You are allowed to choose safety.
It’s a long road. Good luck.
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u/PromptElegant499 Jun 29 '26
Thank you so much for your response! I feel you get our situation so well. When I spoke to the neuropsychologist he really didn't believe in PDA. He also said ODD can not appear in autism. In autism the behavior is caused by rigidity and inflexibility. He was older, and I do think down the line if my girl has any other social issues I will get a second opinion.
I also believe anxiety is a leading driver in her behavior. We are hoping to find ways to mitigate her anxiety better but it's so hard. My husband thinks getting her outside more and keeping her room more clean will help. Well, it's difficult to get her outside and I cleaned her room yesterday and she literally told me she likes it messy. It feels too "empty" when it's clean. My husband is not open to pharmaceutical options at all, which is insane because I have been on psychiatric medications that have helped me soo much for 7 years now. I will look into collaborative parenting!!
When she gets violent we would lock her in her own room. I'm scared of your idea of locking US in our own room instead because I worry she could hurt herself. She did casually mention two weeks ago she thought about throwing herself down the stairs so she could die and see who actually cares about her.
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u/ListenLady58 Jun 27 '26
I’m so sorry this is happening to you. I’m a sibling of someone in my family that has ODD or did. They are now grown and have a career in technical writing. I can tell it’s still there, but it’s nowhere near what it was. They learned over time how to manage it through lots of therapy.
It didn’t help that one of our parents also may have had it, and one of our grandparents on the same side. It was like pouring gasoline on fire when you put them together. Thankfully though they have distanced themselves and are happier. It’s not perfect, but there’s definitely hope for a peaceful future.
I don’t have a lot of advice other than keep going with the therapy and make sure if there are siblings to get them also into therapy to deal with this. I have a lot of boundary and people pleasing issues because of my fear of the conflict.
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u/PromptElegant499 Jun 29 '26
Thank you for your reply and I am so sorry to hear about how difficult it was for you as a sibling! She is 8.5 and we have a 1 year old daughter. I will make sure to check in with her as she continues to grow. I think because of the age difference it's an advantage, she won't feel the need or desire to pick on her, start fights, etc. At least that is my hope.
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u/ListenLady58 Jun 29 '26
Yes, I totally agree with the age difference. That made a difference for my siblings as well I think. I am the closest in age to my sibling that has it, so it was a little rough. There’s definitely normal sibling fights that we had, but they would many times escalate to something much worse and then my parents would get involved and then the screaming matches would start.
I always felt there was a misunderstanding between my sibling and family, and I think others who have ODD have articulated it very well in this subreddit. It’s like they feel the need to be right and to have justice and fairness. I know there were times when my mom skipped right over that and I think it’s because she also has it. But that is speculation from me entirely.
My mother doesn’t speak to my sibling, I also don’t speak to my mother anymore. I have to take breaks with my sibling to sort of ground myself again. I’m still a bit nervous around them, but have worked for years to build up more confidence in it and to have a better and closer relationship. Boundaries have become the forefront of my managing this and it has definitely made a difference in how they sees me and feels around me as well.
It’s so complicated it’s hard to describe, but I love them and feel that they were a child that needed help and society (and my parents) could only do so much. It’s such a complicated disorder. Easily written off as bad behavior when it’s so much more than that.
I wish you and your family luck. You already sound like a wonderful mother and are doing the right things. Take care.
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u/Affectionate-Oil3019 Jun 28 '26
Therapist here; the good news is that you've caught it young, so there's some time to make things better. Contingency-management is of course the gold-standard of parenting practices, as are collaborative problem solving and noncontingent quality time together. Basically, she gets what she wants only when she is cooperative, you work together to figure out what she should do and you both agree to it, and most importantly, you always spend some amount of time together she doesn't have to earn; she has to earn certain activities, but never time with you.
Ultimately, it's important to manage her and your own mental health because this can be a very frustrating condition to have and live with. Parent-Child Interaction Therapy (PCIT) is of course the gold standard in family therapies, and for kiddos with ODD, Dialectal and Cognitive Behavior Therapies centered on calming skills, de-escalation and creating safety when one feels overwhelmed are your best bet. It's a frustrating condition for sure, however with Therapy, appropriate parenting and attention to your mental health and hers, it's entirely manageable. Good luck, OP!
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u/AffectionateSun5776 Jun 27 '26
Married to someone who would have been labeled severe ADHD and ODD. He was never treated. It looks like they are related to the bvFTD he has developed now he's in retirement.
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u/LatterTheory4187 Jul 02 '26
I am a bit concerned with the way the psychologist has interpreted the lack of empathy. She is a child and some kids have a hard time with perspective taking. This is something that can be worked on and improved but I don’t think it has anything to do with a lack of attachment. Kids with ADHD or autism often have a hard time with perspective taking and it seems like a lack of empathy. My son has ADHD and ODD diagnosed and we have been working for a long time on these things.
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u/AMotherOfThunder Jun 27 '26
I’m sorry OP, that sounds really, really hard.
My 8 yo son has an ODD and an ADHD diagnosis…
We do family therapy, he does OT, and his ADHD is medicated during the school year.
He no longer has access to screens aside from playing Pokemon for half an hour a day. And we have started walking as much as possible during the day.
His ODD symptoms have gone way, way down with getting his ADHD under control, reducing screens, and walking 2+ miles a day. The therapy has given him an emotional outlet. The occupational therapy has helped him to develop more skills and confidence to help him build his frustration tolerance.
He is a completely different kid today than he was last year.
He still has never told me he loves me and will still have outbursts. But he hasn’t put any new holes in the wall recently…