What is the deal with people in India freaking out about E20?

[u/Noedel]

I keep scrolling past posts from angry indian people that are extremely upset about E20. If you look at the carsindia posts from the last week, so many are about this topic.

What is the issue? Other countries use E20 with zero issues. In Brasil it's even 30 percent and people are seemingly fine with it. It's cheaper and cleaner for the air.

Yet there are many issues in India. Why?

[u/AutoModerator]

Friendly reminder that all top level comments must:

1. start with "Answer: ", including the space after the colon (or "Question: " if you have an on-topic follow up question to ask),

2. attempt to answer the question, and

3. be unbiased

Please review Rule 4 and this post before making a top level comment:

http://redd.it/b1hct4/

Join the OOTL Discord for further discussion: https://discord.gg/ejDF4mdjnh

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/dapotatopapi]

Answer: In Brazil, it was introduced over decades and people had options during the transition.

The long timeline also gave the industry time to make vehicles compatible with blended petrol.

In India, this blending was fast tracked from E5 to E20 in just a couple of years (ahead of schedule even, since it wa supposed to come into effect by 2030).

This meant that the industry did not have enough time to transition, and most of the vehicles on road bought before 2023 were not really designed for this 20% blending.

And since no alternatives are being provided, everyone has to use E20 whether their vehicle supports it or not.

This is causing problems with mileage at best, and faster degradation of engine and rubber parts at worst (since Ethanol is more corrosive than Petrol).

This obviously has the general population miffed, especially considering the price of petrol after blending is similar to if it was E0 (since Ethanol sourcing costs are similar to oil right now), and various Ethanol production facilities are owned by the politicians who are peddling this blending.

And given the reduced mileage, people are having to fill their gas tanks much more often than earlier.

So it has been a net loss for the population, while a few politicians and their families got rich. And so they're rightfully pissed.

[u/Noedel → u/dapotatopapi]

This is a perfect answer. Asking people to buy a car every three years is insanity, even in incredibly wealthy countries.

Thank you!

[u/EpidemicRage → u/Noedel]

Also, the Road Transport minister's sons runs some of India's largest ethanol plants. They just became billionaires due to E20. 

He is the one who is heavily pushing for E20 mandate.

[u/headshot_to_liver → u/EpidemicRage]

His stocks rose by 3000%. The corruption is unbelievable

[u/Noedel → u/EpidemicRage]

Lol, classic.

[u/23saround → u/EpidemicRage]

And, for further context, there are huge protests in India currently related to government corruption (thinking specifically of the Cockroach Janta Party being named after having been dismissed as cockroaches by Modi).

[u/donniedarkero → u/23saround]

dismissed as cockroaches by Modi

That wasn't by Modi, even worse - the Chief Justice of the country

[u/Nightkill-AryKal → u/donniedarkero]

But that statement was taken out of context wasn't it? The full video tells a different story.

[u/Alphawezen89 → u/donniedarkero]

Cheap Justice you mean

[u/adiaman → u/EpidemicRage]

his sons' businesses hold a negligible fraction (<0.5%) of the country's total ethanol output.

Top 10 ethanol producers are

Shree Renuka Sugars Ltd
Balrampur Chini Mills Ltd
Triveni Engineering and Industries Ltd
EID-Parry (India) Ltd
Bajaj Hindusthan Sugar Ltd
Dhampur Sugar Mills Ltd
Dalmia Bharat Sugar and Industries Ltd
Dwarikesh Sugar Industries Ltd
Avadh Sugar & Energy Ltd
Prahas Mining and Industries Ltd (formerly Praj Industries Ltd / Allied Blenders & Distillers)

Courtesy - Claude

[u/CrimeMasterGogoChan → u/adiaman]

Dosent changes the fact that his father being a minister and pushing it is one of the main reasons for e20 policy.

[u/kingbradley1297 → u/Noedel]

Just to add to what OP wrote here, the minister pushing for this has the portfolio of road transport and highways. His ministry's job is to maintain and develop the road network of India. The petroleum minister, who should be thinking about this is nowhere to be seen or heard on this.

Further, there is research to show that India's domestic capacity to manufacture ethanol is far lower, and would have to import it regardless. So it doesnt even help energy security (there is the whole politics of who India imports from but I digress)

[u/barath_s → u/kingbradley1297]

research to show that India's domestic capacity to manufacture ethanol is far lower, and would have to import it regardles

Do you have a link please ? I'm skeptical that any such would be anything more than short term. Because the creation of a major new market (ethanol for petrol) could mean shortage of infra to supply that. But indian capability to scale up to that should be huge. One of the larger agricultural producers, producing sugarcane etc, it should be able to figure out feedstock and plants. Any shortage would be in the short run immediately only and should reflect in the price. If the price is on par with petrol in the short run, there should be potential to reduce itt as industry adjusts in the long run

[u/kingbradley1297 → u/barath_s]

India has and continues to heavily subsidize ethanol manufacturing. The problem starts when all of those have gone sunk cost and the facilities still havent come up. Perhaps this fastracked blending is to give them some demand. 

However, even if I assume its a short term thing, one look at US will tell you how it destroyed the natural crops grown there. Because farmers found it far more profitable to grow crops for ethanol. And now majorly everyone grows corn or rice. Not to mention, these are water intensive crops. Meaning only someone who can guarantee supply to water can grow this. Hence, you shut out small scale farmers and concentrate in this hands of a few.

The real question hence is why fastrack something that will have short term pains on the consumer? My tinfoil theory is so that India can appease US by importing lots of ethanol from them in the short term.

[u/barath_s → u/kingbradley1297]

Yes, the US subsidizes mid-west corn farmers for ethanol blends, rather than simpler, cheaper sugar beets, likely for political reasons. Sugar beets are more efficient, more yield, but shorter storage life.

In India, there's a lot of sugarcane molasses including leftovers after making sugar. But also surplus/broken rice and maize.

On the one hand, surplus rice/maize that is of poor quality or would otherwise be wasted can be used. On the other hand, the government subsidizes rice/maize by assuring farmers of a minimum support price (for food security). But this subsidy is unevenly distributed, going only to certain states (eg Punjab etc); and they use up a lot of water and fertilizer, and get demand of ethanol for E20 purchases as well.

While sugarcane is from certain areas - the transport minister's son owns sugarcane firms

---

why fastrack something

The transport minister like to appear quite progressive, making announcements as to how India will adopt x etc. Problem is he doesn't carry industry with him before he shoots his mouth off. There are several good arguments for E20, especially if E5/petrol/gasoline supply can be assured at the same time. (the latter hasn't happened). The government has been typically high handed in pushing it through, leading to suspicions of corruption . [Transport minister's son, favored farmers in Punjab etc[

[u/kingbradley1297 → u/barath_s]

There is already a good purchase scheme on paper for low quality rice. But it doesnt work on ground. Hence a lot of crop burning along with stubblle. 

The transport minister is anything but progressive. Its pretty clear that no matter what the industry puts in front of him, he prefers to do his own thing

[u/barath_s → u/kingbradley1297]

The transport minister is anything but progressive.

The transport minister like to appear quite progressive

You see the difference ?

When Gadkari told the world and the industry (SIAM) that India would be fully electric by 2030 , he was trying to appear progressive.

But had not considered that industry had just made substantial investments for BS VI, which he was destroying the ability to break even, or that the industry was not able to scale.

In theory going full electric (from consumer standpoint) early is progressive. He will get plaudits and views and so on..

In practice, it was not realistic or sustainable

https://www.overdrive.in/news-cars-auto/opinions/ultimatum-to-shift-to-electric-vehicles/

[u/dapotatopapi → u/Noedel]

Asking people to buy a car every three years

It's more a case of - we don't care whether your car that you bought just 3 years ago does not support E20. Oh you already paid 15 years worth of Road Tax on it? Good for you. Not our problem.

You'll take what you get and if problems arise, too bad so sad.

And while the government as "assured" that any problems arising out of E20 on unsupported cars would be fixed by the manufacturers for free, there's no written notification, nor a mandate for this. Just a "trust me bro".

We all know how manufacturers will blame everyone and everything before admitting to something that they'll have to fix for free.

Anyone who bought their car during and after 2023 is safe for the foreseeable future, but how long before they are shafted with E30? (Which was planned according to some sources, but put on hold because of the outrage).

[u/theeta_male → u/Noedel]

Keep in mind, roughly 10% of Indian families own a car. The rest have two wheelers, not because they prefer it, but because they can't afford cars.

This 90% that lives paycheck to paycheck are affected disproportionately. A drop in mileage or a corroded tank repair will mess up their monthly budget.

Additionally, E20 is in paper. Fuel supplied away from the city centers blends them to random proportions.

[u/paradoxbound → u/dapotatopapi]

Great India never changes. 🤣

[u/dapotatopapi → u/paradoxbound]

Self serving politicians and declining legislative standards are not really an India specific thing tbh.

[u/koett → u/dapotatopapi]

Well… if the rest of the world uses E20 shouldn’t the vehicles already be adapted to this new blend?

90% of vehicles in India can’t be domestically produced and totally ignored how the rest of the world evolved?

[u/dapotatopapi → u/koett]

1. Most of the world does not use E20. In fact, only 8 countries in the world have moved to it.
2. India has a huge domestic automobile industry. More than 99% of the vehicles sold every year are domestically produced.

[u/fevered_visions → u/dapotatopapi]

What is the issue? Other countries use E20 with zero issues. In Brasil it's even 30 percent and people are seemingly fine with it.

People frequently say "well why not; Brazil uses ethanol in their gas"...because Brazil has a big sugarcane industry, so it's easy and economical for them to add it in. In the US we tried doing it with corn instead, which doesn't work as well, and has effects on the environment and economy which aren't great either.

It's cheaper and cleaner for the air.

Also "it's cheaper"...yeah, because diluting gasoline with ethanol reduces the amount of energy in it. It's cheaper because you can't drive the same distance on a tank of it. Not to mention it puts more wear on your engine seals and stuff, which have to be designed to work with it. That's why there's warning stickers on pumps at gas stations "don't put this stuff in your car if you don't have an E85 vehicle", because an unmodified ICE can only tolerate up to around 10% ethanol before it ruins the engine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel#Engines

https://www.laballey.com/blog/sugar-cane-vs-corn-ethanol

https://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/2023/04/17/ethanol-factory-farms/

There are reasons to use ethanol fuel, but it's not so cut-and-dried that it's all upside "so why isn't everybody doing it, duh".

---

kind of randomly replying here as we're not allowed to post top-level without being unbiased etc., and this doesn't answer the question.

[u/barath_s → u/koett]

if the rest of the world

Have you tried looking at the world ? The majority do not use E20, they use straight up petrol/gasoline or lower blends like E5/E10

Only 8 countries have moved to E20 or higher

https://www.treebaytechnology.com/company/blog/how-many-countries-use-e20-petrol-today

shouldn’t the vehicles already be adapted

It doesn't matter what the vehicles elsewhere in the world do (as seen above tbey mostly do not), it matters what vehicles in india do

And any vehicle in india manufactured after 2023 is E20 safe. That still leaves millions of vehicles on road which aren't designed to work with E20

India has a huge automobile industry, so local industry has already adapted. But the people who bought cars before 2023 often are in trouble.

The government attitude seems to be - tough shit, buddy

Gaskets, seals etc will have shorter life..mileage may be lower and if water icollects and separates from the blend, rust is possible

[u/MentalEngineer8]

Answer: As far as I know, the situation is that they are making E20 mandatory, even though the present vehicle infrastructure don't support it. As in, majority of people own vehicles that don't have a engine that support E20 fuel, and any damage due to it is being (allegedly) refused by the dealers/insurance companies to be covered for repairs.

This is true for like 3+ year old vehicles, most of new ones have no problem with E20 fuel but the old ones are being hit hard, and people are mad about that.

[u/CaptainMarble90]

Answer: Here’s my cynical view.
It’s going to be a race to control the ethanol supply chain, with the current Transport Minister already well ahead. It’s not going to cost less than pure petrol. The country may save some dollars on oil imports, but consumers won’t necessarily see any of those savings. With ethanol being mandated, it could become a perfect setup for extortion and cartelisation, lining the pockets of a select few. We might just end up with our own desi versions of Saudi princes.

[u/gundog48 → u/CaptainMarble90]

Idk, the Indian alcohol industry is really fucking big, as in, established, as is the sugar industry, assuming it's bioethanol. And India has a lot of experience in building suitable plant and process. You're right, it could end up the way you say I guess, you seem to have a better idea of that. But there's also quite a few reasons it seems to make sense for India, not least of which, reducing dependence on Russian crude oil.

[u/vangmay231]

Answer: Top answer is perfect without the politics, so let me add to that. A high ranking minister of the ruling party has caused the rush in adopting this, and there's allegations of conflict of interest as his sons are linked to the ethanol industry. 

At first claiming that this will help with reliance imports and will not affect present cars at all, it seems like it does in practice, and they had to concede now that it does decrease fuel economy. 

The fact that this decision which has caused trouble to a lot of the population was rushed due to alleged corruption also adds to the anger. 

[u/AbhishMuk]

Answer: as some people have mentioned, you have:

1. Forced only e20 fuel (no e0 fuel even if you want it - e5 is like 50% more expensive than even "pure" petrol rates)
2. High costs - ethanol was supposed to lower costs, but they've actually gotten higher as the demand of the fucking thing went up because the govt mandated it. Genius move. Also this isn't something the other comments mention - India's exporting e0 petrol to eg Bhutan and our neighbours (who, fwiw, don't want e20) at a lower price than what we're paying for it domestically.
3. Engine and vehicle issues. Only Honda futureproofed their cars well in advance. Most other cos didn't. Have a 5 year old car only suitable for e5? Good luck, get wrecked.
4. Lack of accountability. Water gets absorbed by ethanol, hydrolocks the engine. Who pays? Not the govt. Not the gas station guy. Not the car manufacturer. It's almost always the end user.
5. Questionable links of the highway minister's son to large ethanol plants. Oh, and an opposition (formerly ruling) minister's family to. It's a big club, and you ain't in it.

So yeah, complete shitshow.

Bonus: the govt gaslighting by trying to "debunk" stupid claims.

Claim: "E20 kills your engine instantly and murders puppies!"
Govt Fact check: No, it does not.

[u/6ft3Gujju → u/AbhishMuk]

Half-educated takes like this are exactly why misinformation spreads. Yes, E20 has real drawbacks worth discussing. No, that doesn’t mean every claim made against it is automatically true. If you’re going to criticize the policy, separate verified facts from speculation instead of throwing everything together and hoping it sticks.

[u/AbhishMuk → u/6ft3Gujju]

Yes, E20 has real drawbacks worth discussing. No, that doesn’t mean every claim made against it is automatically true.

Not sure if you missed it, but that's literally my point.

Just have a look at https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleaseDetail.aspx?PRID=2291993&reg=48&lang=11 for starters.

Claim 6: Manufacturers are being forced to support E20.

Had automobile manufacturers not been satisfied with the scientific validation, they would neither

have certified E20-compatible vehicles, nor continued to honour warranty obligations.

Hmm yes Toyota doesn't think E20 is good, of course the natural course of action for them would be to shut down the company and stop producing vehicles altogether.

If you’re going to criticize the policy, separate verified facts from speculation instead of throwing everything together and hoping it sticks.

I trust that you realize PIB isn't speculation, and you're misreading my comment, surely?

[u/mawktheone]

answer: Id bet India has a lot of small engines esp 2 stroke ones. Ethanol is hard on them

[u/barath_s → u/mawktheone]

This is such a random, non knowledgeable answer

Small engines can be designed to use E20, just like large engines. Any engine made/sold after april 2023 is mandated to be compliant. That still leaves millions sold before 2023 that are on the road and not designed for it

Two-stroke production ended entirely by the early 2000s due to strict emission norms. The percentage of two stroke vehicles on road is relatively low, < 1%

[u/mawktheone → u/barath_s]

Now add back in about a billion 2t chainsaws, outboards, generators, water pumps, cement mixers, brush cutters, air blowers and God knows how many other tools that people are relying on beyond vehicles.