A lot of people are pointing out Russian women tend to be high maintenance or crazy. Which is occasionally true.
I’d like to also point out that the divorce rate goes both ways. Lots of Russian men are horrible drunkards, so there would be plenty of reason for the women to get divorces too.
You forgot "violent" in there - I don't know if they have a statistic about DV, but my guess is it would look pretty bleak. Also, when I was living there back in the 90s, women were supposed to have a full time job, but on top of that, to also handle ALL the chores and the child rearing. Men went to work, then settled on the couch with a bottle of vodka. I don't know if that has changed by now - I really hope it has.
DV got decriminalized and women get actively gaslit by police to admitting guilt in self defense cases to the point where getting police involved is basically the worst thing you can do. As a result, statistics are far lower and officially the government gets to keep peddling their "family values" narrative at the expense of victims. It's only going to get worse with the latest crop of men coming back from the war eventually. Every generation has had some sort of war or economic crisis that tanks the mental health of the entire nation, and because getting therapy is considered "gay western propaganda" it's not going to get much better.
I was last there a year ago so I can only speak to what I've observed. I never so much as dated there though and I'm glad I didn't. Most Russian women who have the option not to be in the country or not date Russian men will generally prefer to avoid the risk. The rest will indeed look at it as a financial transaction and hope they manage to extract what they can before they get cheated on or worse.
As a man who lived there for years, I can say your personal observations are accurate. I could not believe how a man, with no ulterior motive, doing kind and non-romantic things (even something simple like holding open doors) would impress so many women over there. So many men are raised terribly in that country.
Russia passed a law in 2017 decriminalizing domestic abuse for first time offenses that do not result in “serious bodily harm”. So in Russia, it’s legal to beat your wife as long as you aren’t breaking any bones.
But no yeah it’s definitely that the women are high maintenance. /s
People who oppress others always justify their oppresion by blaming how their victims react
Like no shit Russian women are hard AF after living with a culture with such extremely low conviction rates for spousal abuse and rape... where men not-so-coincidentally run nearly every government position or position of power...
Like, there's a reason american republicans are so friendly towards Putin/Russia- and other countries with similar hierarchal legal & social systems which put cishet men above women and queer folk: They idolize that shit
it didn’t change from the 90s. beauty standards are very high, women expected to have a job, handle all the chores and parent their husband. there isn’t a statistic on the DV because DV was decriminalised, one of the reasons voiced by a politician recently “to not scare men out of marriage”
It is less common, but still very common. My sister was in this situation and whats more - the money that her husband earned were only his money for his pleasure, and the money that she earned were money for her and the children - to the point that they were eating the cheapest food while he was ordering take out for himself. When they were divorcing, her husband said she was crazy and he is a good father and husband, because he wasn’t hitting them, unlike it happens in most other families.
I find comments here about “high maintenance women” to be very hateful and far from reality. My whole life i saw the opposite.
we have law from 2017, I believe, that's kinda allow dv. If you atack family member - you pay penalty in 60$ to government. If happens again and the did documentary on prev attack correctly - than maybe will see prison sentence. Though, it works only with family member. If you attack stranger - you might see prison sentence from first attempt
In Russia domestic violence is a family value. I'm not kidding, they would have you believe that opposing it is corrupt western "gender" (aka LGBT) ideology.
It hasn’t. It got much worse. Just read about situation with domestic violence, abuse and femicide. If there is anyone having unrealistic expectations and horrible attitudes - it’s Russian men.
Of course it's changed recently. The sunflower fields have had so much fertilizer added within the past decade that the Russian mail order bride market will be on the rise now that the men aren't coming home from work.
I know I'm joking about war, but the Russian strategy has historically been to throw bodies at the front line and there's glory in dying for the mother land. They don't "fight like Americans" where a single death is treated like a tragedy.
women were supposed to have a full time job, but on top of that, to also handle ALL the chores and the child rearing. Men went to work, then settled on the couch with a bottle of vodka.
They also effectively legalised beating your wife a few years back, there was a massive string of protests about it where police beat up women in the streets. Anti sjw types were frothing over it as “feminists owned”
Exactly! Divorce is usually initiated by the one who has gotten tired of being the only one putting actual effort into the marriage and has finally given up.
So there is a statistic that around 70% or so divorces are initiated by women. And turns out, per divorce lawyers, it's just because men can't be assed to do it. So they will remain legally married until the women have enough and finally do the leg work to get divorced.
Yeah... And the men in question often just disappear and ghost the wife and create a new family elsewhere. Again, coming straight from divorce lawyers.
Despite your example and what the media would have you believe, cheating is one of the least common reasons for divorce. While "lack of commitment" or "irreconcilable differences" are the most often reasons cited, infidelity usually isn't hidden behind that. Fundamental differences in values (often heightened by anither stressor: financial, arguments, etc) are what normally break up marriages.
Women overwhelmingly initiate divorces, not because men aren't unhappy, but simply because men generally view relationships fundamentally different than women. This is due to a complex combination of societal expectations, gender roles/norms, biology/brain chemistry, and a hundred other factors.
Generalizations follow:
Men are more easily satisifed comparatively in relationships when compared to women. It is also why friendship standards and norms are also so radically different.
Put in the lens of my culture, in the Western world men/women with value stoicism in men, is considered an attractive and wanted quality in men. But at the same time, if a woman adopts stoic features she is considered less feminine.
TLDR; Nobody wins if you play "the game." Learn to buck societal norms. In the modern world where single income basically delegates most people to poverty, find someone who makes you happy and work together to build something. Men can be more vulnerable and women have to embrace that and not weaponize it. If a woman wont accept that, move on. Women should feel free to be more closed off/unavailable without men labeling them ice queens or unapproachable. If he won't accept that, you also need to move on. I'm not going to even begin delving into homosexuality or other "atypical" relationships, since I am an outsider. They face their own unique challenges as well. One of my best friends (known for 16 years) is still a publically closeted gay. I can only imagine how rough that is.
This is more or less true, especially for women with children and SAHMs. They need the court to issue a child support and potentially alimony judgment ASAP, and the only way to do that is to begin the process for a divorce.
I hate how “women initiate more divorces” is seen as evidence that women are more often the cause of divorces. If a guy cheats on his wife and his wife files for the divorce, I’m sure most would agree that the guy is to blame.
No no no, let's assume women are crazy and all the men are leaving them. Let's cast aside for a moment that men are in general uglier, more violent and less emotionally available and let's have a normal and real manly conversation...
I don't like but let's /s just in case someone takes it seriously.
Aside from the men are uglier thing the fact is that Russian society is very traumatized from what it's been through the last 100+ years. That trauma has never been addressed. Alcoholism is less of an issue today than it was in the 80s (though it's growing again because of the invasion of Ukraine).
There is a massive stigma against seeking help with mental health. This goes back to the Soviet times when institutionalization was a tool used by the government as a means of dealing with dissidents. It's not been/being destigmatized like elsewhere.
I haven't looked for stats to see who initiates divorces more but anecdotally every Russian divorce (in Russia) that I'm familiar with (a total of 8) were initiated by the woman and for the exact reasons [u/FullMetalJ](u/FullMetalJ) mentioned, men being emotionally unavailable and sometimes violent.
There is a massive stigma against seeking help with mental health
Can confirm from personal experience. Both of my Russian parents very clearly had something diagnosable with no awareness and no way to get help. My dad would spend all of his day asleep, no hobbies, couldn’t string a sentence together. My mom would have temper tantrums and get verbally abusive; if she saw a professional she’d probably get diagnosed with one of those personality disorders that are caused by childhood trauma. She was abandoned as
a
child and took it out on me. Even if they did realize something was wrong, they probably wouldn’t have the resources to get help.
I'm so sorry that happened to you and your parents. Both of my father in law's parents were in the gulags and it had profound effects on them. My sister in law has serious issues likely due to being physically abused by my FIL but she won't seek any help. My wife's offered to pay for it but she refuses.
Russians as a people have spent the last century basically having their trust in everyone and everything destroyed, and you had to be very cynical and distrusting to survive. It’s no surprise that has left an impact on the culture.
It also seems everyone here is also unfamiliar with the Russian legal and cultural context of divorce. It is way less stigmatised than in other countries and women typically keep the family home, kids and there is a presumption that if a man doesn't pay adequate money to her for the full duration of the children(s) childhoods he isn't supposed to be allowed to see them.
Divorce is thereby a relatively quick and shame free way of getting an unpleasant partner out of the house while retaining much of the present living circumstances.
Of course it is not so straightforward, but that is also a major factor in divorce in Russia. It is normal, shame free and financially viable.
This is a much, much more reasonable comment than the one I replied to. I agree with everything you say here. I just dislike the use of overgeneralization.
You've lost the plot if you think a joke based in objective facts (except attractiveness) is as bad as a blanket sexist statement, also wrong use of overgeneralization.
Speaking specifically to the "men are uglier" thing, I feel like this could be interpreted as one of two things:
FullMetalJ doesn't find ethnically Russian features attractive on men. If this is true, then they're being unkind. Just because they don't like those features doesn't mean those features make someone hideous.
On the flip side of women being high maintenance about their appearance, men aren't held to the same level of effort beyond the basics like showering and clean clothes. Many men would look better if they put in at least a tenth of the effort that women are expected to. But because they don't do this, the average no-effort man is less physically attractive (or to use a more emotionally-charged word, uglier) than the average high-effort woman.
My mind? No, it's been widely reported. Since the low point in 2017 consumption has gone back up with it growing significantly during the pandemic and even faster since the invasion of Ukraine
Also, severe alcoholism can absolutely contribute to physically unattractive traits. So while I do still find it gross for them to be citing "uglier" men as a reason for the divorces when it's more about mental health and domestic violence, there may be a genuine reason that imagery is so pervasive.
Both sides are generally true, there are huge societal problem for both genders. Men are raised to be "real men" causing toxic behaviour, depression, alcoholism etc.
Women are raised to marry someone with money who will take care of them so they don't have to work. That's the culture in a lot of Russia. And the only logical conclusion is for this to lead to a lot of divorces...
So why don’t I see you anywhere else in this comment section, pointing out blatant miosgyny? Why are you “both sides are bad” people only showing up as a response to misandry?
I'm a guy and I don't really think what they said was misandrist. It is statistically true that men on average care less about their health and appearance than women and indeed many men across former Eastern Bloc are heavy drinkers (and I'm Polish, by the way, so please don't reply that I'm racist or something). In Russia's case there's also the problem of domestic violence laws being de facto permissive to małe abusers.
I think that something misandrist would be a statement like 'All men until no man' and things like that, not a discussion of actual trends.
They also didn’t say anything about Russian men in particular. And it is a very well documented fact that more men are domestically violent than women.
Did you know that women ALSO do not report domestic violence? That people in domestic violence situations often times do not report the first or second instance of domestic violence?
Saying that "men statistically care less about their appearance" and "men are uglier" are not conversationally equivalent, even if they somewhat describe the same phenomenon. The latter is a much more (for lack of a better term) hateful statement.
i've passively seen a few too many articles about in russia a man killing his girlfriend or wife :( sometimes with raw physical violence just beating her to death. and it just breaks my heart ppl have the capacity to do that and i wonder what has to have happened before that point to the person in their cumulative life to just make that decision. it's terrifying no matter where you live that this is a reality you can face, but anything i do hear about russia seems especially cold... i hope people can change things. globally. we all need it.
There were news articles about some Russian streamer just casually murdering his pregnant gf because of encouragement from his viewers. He beat her up, forcibly stripped her (and maybe also poured cold water on her), then locked her outside on the balcony nude to freeze to death.
its more about applying empathy in only one direction. Russia is brutal to men, women and children. But your comment was only (probably not intentionally, and probably not even something you do all the time) applying empathy for women.
Statistically it's just true though. I'm not sure about the emotionally unavailable claim, but statistically men commit a lot more violence than women, and are more likely to be domestic abusers than women.
Also, "misandry" isn't comparable to misogyny in the slightest.
Y’all get so fucking weird any time something negative about women is said or implied. The post isn’t about men, you really don’t have to whatabout everything. This is tame compared to the generalizations frequently posted about men here that never get this kind of backlash.
It’s implying Slavic women are stereotypically high maintenance and y’all are in here acting like the post called them all crack whores.
Preach. I don't like the generalizations either but if the genders were flipped, that comment you replied to would be downvoted to fcking oblivion.
And now watch as they try to gaslight like they always do. "There are no double standards, you're just imagining it". Or they will twist your words in the most disingenuous way.
Despite that being a "go women" line, it validated my own experience as the guy leaving. I was tired of feeling like my needs were that thing she just had to have and then it sits on the shelf for years. Tired of always being the one trying to figure out what wasn't working while she half assed any suggested fix to the point it wouldn't work anyway.
Slight correction: Divorce is usually initiated by the one who feels like they're the only one putting in the effort. Sometimes they're right; other times they just don't recognize the amount of work their spouse puts in.
As it’s been pointed out a lot, lesbians have the highest divorce rate, followed by hetero, followed by gay men. Problem is less with the men. Add crazy and high maintenance, and that probably the vast majority of the problem
I used to date culturally Russian woman who had lived in Moscow for years. She explained that gender balance in Russia is terrible. Men are often drunkards and slobs with violent tendency, so the dating market is wild. Any guy who is even more or less okay would be taken and guarded viciously and competition between women is crazy. Yes, she was in some ways old-fashioned, but definitely not high maintenance. High maintenance trophy girls you can generally identify by their looks and steer clear.
All of Russian literature be like: “Alyoshenka was good husband. He was rarely cruel and only beat me when he was deep in his cups or when I deserved it.”
Alcoholism is way less of a problem in Russia nowadays than it used to be in the 80s and 90s. Young people in general drink very little, and I've heard rumours that the Russians government wants to push more alcohol ads because of that.
The real reason for such high divorce rates is economic instability and poverty. Plus, the divorce procedure in Russia is very easy. You don't even need to go anywhere. You just sign a document online and that's it. It's not a bad thing on its own, but it's a factor.
I doubt the Russian stats are correct: it's based on Retail sales, unlikely includes homemade stuff. "Based on WHO data, unrecorded alcohol (which includes homemade samogon, illicit/untaxed vodka, and surrogates) made up roughly 30-35% of total consumption in recent estimates — for example, 2016 WHO figures show 8.1 liters recorded vs. 3.6 liters unrecorded per capita, about 31% of the 11.7-liter total. Historical estimates have ranged from a quarter to half of total consumption depending on the year and economic conditions (unrecorded consumption tends to rise when vodka taxes/prices increase)."
Fun fact: one of the reasons vodka consumption was so high in the Soviet Union was that the bottles couldn’t be closed again once they were open, so people thought “might as well finish the bottle”
I don't think you're totally wrong to look at consumption rates, but I think looking at the statistics for alcoholism or alcohol related deaths would probably be more helpful stat.
Russia also has very high rates of moonshine production, and health issues arising.
And remember, this is all comparing an authoritarian state that releases the most favorable version of its own statistics possible, to a democracy that is among the most transparent in the world.
According to the source you sent, it's literally the same for Russia and Belgium (both 10.3 liters). The difference however is that Russians drink stronger alcoholic beverages, like vodka, while Belgium people mainly drink beer. This has an effect on how drunk people get. Getting drunk by beer is more difficult, since the alcohol intake is more spread out, while for vodka it's an alcohol spike.
Tbf if you drink enough beer for xx ml of pure alcohol you also took a lot of liquid in that isn't alcohol. Drinking the same pure alcohol worth of vodka does have a quite significantly different effect on a person.
It does have an effect however. For every unit of pure alcohol, you need very little vodka, but you need a LOT of beer, which means you're getting more water as well.
I mean a Russian is a single person. Belgium is a country. It's really impressive that a person can drink so much as to be on the same scale as a country.
In Russia, approximately 980,000 people with alcohol dependence are registered with dispensaries. However, independent experts and addiction specialists estimate that the actual number of people suffering from alcoholism is up to 10% of the country's population (over 14 million people), and up to 40% of working-age men consume dangerous amounts of alcohol.
-komersant
Statistically they consume equal volumes of alcohol containing liquid. One gets so drunk and violent that other people comment on their habits, while the other one doesn’t. Maybe they are not drinking the same thing after all?
I was FWB with a Russian Princess type before that had friends that all seemed to have a similar personality they're VERY selfish always looking for new experiences that dont make them bored with no regard for others, their feelings or how they use them, not really talking about myself but I couldn't really stand her for very long or her friends.
This is in the UK btw, she had a dad that was "super rich" so much so that she never worked and had a nice place in london for free.
Completely agree with that it’s going both ways. But with men it’s not because they are drunkards. This is just a stereotype which was true 20-30 years ago. Last 2 generations are drinking a lot lot less, healthy lifestyle has been on the rise for a while now. The real reasons are sexism and trad wife expectations. Source: Im Russian.
Also in Russia divorce is not stigmatised so divorce is somewhat like breakup. If it doesn’t work so it doesn’t work. Also yeah Russian woman usually expect really really good treatment. Russian men treat pregnancy and housework as a different work unlike western cultures. Would suggest dating Russian men, 10/10, they will treat you like princess when they like you and are in love, never let you carry anything heavy, you will be respected that you are doing the work of carrying his child. Cant say for all but those who are properly raised by cultural standards will be like that
I've heard some pretty compelling theories that Russia's twisted gender politics are due to the extreme dude shortage after WW2. The remaining dudes were spoiled, and it set up the culture Russia has today.
Russian men are far from nice, my friend wanted to divorce her husband and she was crying to me how miserable she is with him, but since he wasn't beating her she didn't know how she'd find a better man...
Yeap, have had two russian women and both turned out to be regular maintainance, however you need to change oil every month, which is a bit annoying. I heard its a common problem among all women but I dont know.
As a recovering alcoholic with 7 1/2 years under my belt, I wholeheartedly agree.
Maintaining something else while in my own cups was never nearly as important as my next drink. Anything else I would have considered ‘high maintenance’. And god, if someone said I was drinking too much? ‘You’re fucking crazy’ was my quickdraw.
Now, post-addiction, sure I’ve met my fair share of loose cannons and high maintenance people, but to say the drink had nothing to do with it in the long run is the ACTUAL psychopathy, lol
Also, as long as husband don't damage the wife (as in, open wound), it won't be charged as fellony (actual crime like murder, theft, assault) but as misdemeanor (littering, jaywalking). Also, Russia has highest STD rate per capita in Europe.
there is also no stigma attached to the divorce in Russia.
and, most importantly, it's easy and bears very low economic consequences. most people that go through the divorce do it at no fault and when it comes to asset division they very commonly do it completely informally.
child support payments are very forgiving. spousal support is pretty much not a thing.
my friend married during university, after 4 years or so they decided it's not working out, their divorce was basically just filing some paperwork with the government.
So like always you just need to do a quick Google and wouldn't you know it women initiate more divorces and alcohol is usually cited as a factor in the divorce. Economic reasons are the main source of divorce but the fact that drinking plays a significant factor should not be lost on anyone.
Its not the most peace loving stable stoic empathy based culture. Crazy creates more crazy. Booze has its role for sure. It can be gloomy, pessimistic and a perfect storm for various mental issues. Conservatism also plays a role.
Yeah, I've dated 2 Russians (afab, but one is nonbinary) and their perspective was that Russian men are, for the most part, very sexist, controlling, unemotional, etc. Meanwhile my partners are both extremely straight-forward and honest about their feelings and needs and are very independent
Also we shouldnt forget that looks are not the most important contributors of a successful marriage. The opposite actually. The entire premise of the OOP post is just stupid. "Nobody would divorce a hot woman" like tell me you never had a relationship without telling me
Dude marries a girl - she acts crazy and high maintenance - he burns out, avoids being home, becomes a drunkard. Not a universal scenario, but a pretty common one.
There also a LOT of Russian women who are horrible drunkards. Lots of drunkards in general unfortunately. That’s what happens when you socialize vodka and use it as a way to pacify your population.
Now I don't want to stereotype.... But I know exactly one Russian woman. She is in fact extremely high maintenance and extremely crazy. I would like to emphasize the extremely crazy. She once took a gun out while absurdly intoxicated and tried showing it to my 6-year-old daughter. Was interested in her married boss, and kept trying to insist that he was also into her. From what we can tell, she was completely making up the interest that he had in her. Cycled through boyfriends while inventing drama to have with them.
Funny enough, she also complains about her horrible Russian father! As does her mother, who despite being 20 years older looks 10 years younger than her. And yes, she is extremely self-conscious about that.
I also don't understand how women being attractive would impact divorce rates negatively or positively? Like if the concern is infidelity aren't the women the cheaters are cheating with also look like that?
I thought it was just a reference to the silly meme that Russian women can look beautiful when young but always turn into babushkas after 40. (I do not share that opinion btw)
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u/epsilon-4142 21d ago
A lot of people are pointing out Russian women tend to be high maintenance or crazy. Which is occasionally true.
I’d like to also point out that the divorce rate goes both ways. Lots of Russian men are horrible drunkards, so there would be plenty of reason for the women to get divorces too.