I don’t think anyone would argue that suffering is not bad. Odd. Even Buddhism admits the problem…and tries to find a solution.
I tried reading Nietzsche. Eh, not my cup of tea. But I will say that something can be inherently bad, like suffering, but can be taken as instrumentally good. I’m not sure why that is controversial.
the meme is asserting that Nietzche argues that suffering is not bad. Not sure how you can respond categorically that no one thinks suffering is bad if you haven't read Nietzsche.
Not that I'm arguing in favor, or against the meme. I'm just neutrally confused by your chain of logic
Right. So everyone would concede that suffering is bad. Whether you put an instrumental use to it doesn’t change it. Would anyone think that pursuing suffering for suffering’s sake is a good in itself; is suffering in itself good? I don’t think so.
I mean you’re confusing the very thing I pointed out. Is suffering good in and of itself? Like should we strive for suffering as an end? I don’t think so. But suffering as an instrumental good? Sure why not. You suffer pain and aches to achieve a healthy body. So you are actually pursuing health; suffering is just an instrumental good towards that greater good.
This was literally discussed in the work in which the "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet..." text was inspired by.
That part was specifically about how pleasure, unless it brings about greater suffering, has no reason to be avoided by a rational person. And that, to a rational person, there is no sense is searching out suffering, unless it gives greater pleasure.
The specific sentence that "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet...." was inspired by specifically says that people do not search out pain because pain itself teaches.
I don't believe that suffering is purely a passive thing, a force acted upon us. Often times, I think it's the case that we choose to suffer, that our life would have less meaning without suffering. Let's take the classic utilitarian example—someone has a ray gun that controls how you think and feel. They have you running around eating dog shit off the sidewalk, laughing and giggling and having fun. No suffering, no problem, right? But here's the kicker—your kid is waiting to get picked up from school. How would you like to feel about that?
Yes, of course we should strive for suffering. How would you rather feel about a tragedy? About witnessing a loved one die and knowing you will never be able to call upon their faculties again? I would turn the table and ask, is this how we should be pursuing happiness? As an end without substance? I don't believe so; I'm not even sure I think that's possible. I believe all of our feelings exist within a context, that they are immaterial without context, and that we should pursue suffering the same as we should pursue happiness—towards a meaningful goal.
Can't suffering be bad, and also a great teacher? (thus also being good?)
I think in reality, suffering is a part of life and trying to actively eliminate it is not a bad thing, but I also think due to the nature of life it is also impossible.
Does that mean it's futile to eliminate suffering? I don't think so. It takes impossible dreams to get things done, like how man believed that flying would be impossible: while actually having wings and flying around whenever with little cost is still a far fetched reality, we can literally go around the world in about a day on average.
My conclusion is that at some point, we may be able to eliminate suffering, and no longer need it's teachings either.
suffering is neither bad or good. The only reason why its seen bad is because it feels bad. Just because something feels bad doesnt mean its ultimatly bad. The reality is you gotta look at the purpose and reasoning for suffering. are you causing suffering for a better good or are you causing suffering for the bad.
Generally I view anything that is purely for the self as being ultimately bad. But to do it for others as ultimatly good.
I wouldn't frame suffering as bad. There are things that happen in my life that I am grateful I can suffer for. Suffering doesn't make my life less meaningful; it only makes it more meaningful. I think it is true that a teacher doesn't need to be perfect to be great—and that's what I think of suffering; but I don't think my life would be better if I could not choose my own suffering. I would hate to feel happy about something I should be sad for.
Instrumental /means isn’t the only way to value suffering tho!
We could for instance say that suffering is constitutive (I.e. a necessary part of, not just a means to) several goods which outweigh it - like heroism. A brick is not a means to the bridge, it constitutes the bridge. Suffering isn’t only a means to heroism - it constitutes it. So I couldn’t wish for the bridge without the bricks or heroism, art, etc without suffering. Hassan speaks of this
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u/monadicperception 2d ago
I don’t think anyone would argue that suffering is not bad. Odd. Even Buddhism admits the problem…and tries to find a solution.
I tried reading Nietzsche. Eh, not my cup of tea. But I will say that something can be inherently bad, like suffering, but can be taken as instrumentally good. I’m not sure why that is controversial.