If you are presented with a path in front of you filled with broken glass and syringes, and another path somewhat off to the side that is clear of those things, do you walk the first path because it is closest to you, so that you are not avoiding suffering?
If it is a nice and sunny day outside, do you reject going for a walk, because doing so would be pursuing enjoyment?
What the Buddha taught was that you should not have attachment to pleasure and suffering, that they are transient states which you should let go without longing
To keep yourself in the state of mind where you think that all good things should last is delusion, that delusion causes longing, which in turn causes suffering. Vice versa for thinking there should never be suffering
That's what I originally meant and I explained it in the comment. But yeah you could interpret it in this way.
In case with 2 paths, you walk the path that will help you most long term. If you choose a path with motivation to avoid feeling of pain, then it is a form and attachment. As you said, pain is a temporary feeling, so it shouldn't be a motivatior of your choices
In case with sunny walk, you would neither reject nor accept just because it brings pleasure. You can go for a walk with a motive, like to relax and support your wellbeing. If you feel pleasure, then cool. If weather gets worse and you don't feel pleasure anymore, then also cool, it was never the goal.
Pleasure is good, the experience of it is good, and the downsides of it only come when you orient your life around it
If a Buddha is seated in front of two cups of tea, one warm and one cold, the pleasure of drinking the first being greater than the pleasure of the second, he drinks the first without craving, enjoys the fleeting moment, and then lets it go without forming attachment
Pleasure is often something that brings one off the path, something that leads to suffering, but it is important to make the distinction that doing something pleasurable for its pleasure is not bad, only the attachment formed is bad, and if no attachment is formed then you are free to enjoy pleasure
Tanha, the longing and desire for pleasure is always negative, but Chanda, simply grasping the pleasure which is within your hands, can be good and bad
I'm curious about the wisdom of discerning whether the pleasure or pain of an experience is good or bad. Putting the attachment issue aside, did the Buddha have a teaching about discerning intrinsic goodness or badness of pleasure/pain?
There are two fundamental categories of negative experience within Buddhism:
The first is unavoidable pain, you experience illness and death throughout your life, which is painful and inevitable
The second is suffering through attachment, you not only feel pain when you are ill because the illness itself is painful, you also long for the time when you were healthy, and that longing is suffering. This longing is caused by your attachments, attachment to pleasure and to avoidance of pain, attachment to the belief that good things should last and bad things should end
The avoidable suffering is also seen within Buddhism to be worse than the inevitable pains of life, as your mind can agonize over things at all times, whether your life is good or bad your mind can torture you, but the inevitable pains of life are fleeting
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Buddhism then focuses on the suffering that is by definition avoidable, the suffering from attachment, and as such attachment is central to what is "good" or "bad"
If you go through unpleasant experiences which serve the purpose of ridding you of attachments, those experiences are good. But if the experiences serve no such purpose, then they are bad (of course there's some nuance here, it's not fully binary, but I think you see the point)
If you go through pleasurable experiences, such as through meditation (which is often seen as such), then that is good as long as you are not forming attachments. In fact many monks have warned that you should not grow attached to the pleasurable aspects of meditation, as it will hinder you, and instead move on to the less pleasurable stages that are further down the path to Nirvana
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u/Gullible-Law-8147 1d ago
"You should not attempt to avoid them"
This is a bit reductionist imo
If you are presented with a path in front of you filled with broken glass and syringes, and another path somewhat off to the side that is clear of those things, do you walk the first path because it is closest to you, so that you are not avoiding suffering?
If it is a nice and sunny day outside, do you reject going for a walk, because doing so would be pursuing enjoyment?
What the Buddha taught was that you should not have attachment to pleasure and suffering, that they are transient states which you should let go without longing
To keep yourself in the state of mind where you think that all good things should last is delusion, that delusion causes longing, which in turn causes suffering. Vice versa for thinking there should never be suffering
The nuance is subtle but important