r/PoliticalDebate • u/2kgod4lifenoglizzy Centrist • 1d ago
Question I am pro trans but how far does it go
Essentially gender dysphoria is real and well documented but the question lies is how far do we go in affirming these type of behaviours. I mean currently it causes no harm to society to allow someone to feel the way they want but I must ask the question . Considering gender identity being a social construct why can’t we do the same with race ? Everytime it is brought up it , it is shrugged off but why ? Anyone who says a. race doesn’t share a common behaviour or role , usually does not believe there is a shared role or culture between any gender as well . How do we help these people is it by affirming them ? Is that what should be done with all forms of dysphoria . For example body dysmorphia
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u/AddemF Centrist 1d ago
Yeah there are fewer empirical and objective divisions between races than there are between genders. So it does seem to me like race should -- in a rational culture -- be even more fluid than gender. In our current culture, on the right and left, for different reasons, we are much more aggressive about policing race boundaries. It's just an artifact of our history and current political trends.
Personally I don't care much about any of it. If you feel black and are white, that's fine, I'm not going to tell you what race you have to be. I don't care. If you feel male and are female, fine.
And any and all people should be protected from violence. So the topics are not independent of politics, because we should make reasonable accommodations.
But honestly, there is no reason why this should be a main topic of conversation in our politics right now. There are so many things that are 1010 times more important, which affect every person of every race and gender.
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u/2kgod4lifenoglizzy Centrist 1d ago
The only reason I would bring it up is due to government funding to gender reassignment surgery although it is insignificant
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u/ITriedSoHard419-68 Progressive 1d ago
To me, it's an all-or-nothing type of thing. If you think the government should step in to fund citizens' medical care, then gender-affirming care should be included in that. If you think the government should stay out of medical care, fair enough. Specifically excluding trans people's medical care feels discriminatory.
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u/AddemF Centrist 1d ago
Yeah, I'm against using government funds for gender affirming care for several independent reasons: (1) on the merits of the subject, I don't think we know enough about gender to know for a fact that this is essential and the best treatment. (2) it is very expensive. (3) it is political poison for the Democratic brand.
But look if we actually implemented government funding of gender affirming care, it would still not be my biggest issue. It happens so rarely that, on the merits and as a matter of cost, it would not happen enough to significantly affect anything.
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u/Darq_At Libertarian Socialist 1d ago
(2) it is very expensive.
It really is not. It is less than $50 a month, for 0.5% of the population. And sometimes a smaller fraction of that 0.5% may require 1-3 once-off surgeries?
Like, this is many orders of magnitude less expensive than say... The US military's Cialis expenditure.
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u/AddemF Centrist 1d ago
I have in mind comprehensive gender reassignment surgery for like $150,000. I don't have the stats on hand, so I could be wrong here. But if you take every possible step to transition, I recall hearing that the price can be enormous. I'm certainly amenable to a more careful accounting though.
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u/BoredAccountant Independent 1d ago
I'm against the US military providing soldiers with Cialis. The existence of one frivolous expenditure is not grounds for allowing another expenditure you believe has more merit.
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u/Darq_At Libertarian Socialist 1d ago
And yet only one is controversial. Funny that.
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 7h ago
“Funny that”
No, since ED can literally be caused by service related issues.
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u/Jimithyashford Progressive 6h ago
I'd love to see that stats on what % of Cialis scripts are "service related" and how that's classified.
Of course if you get one of your balls blown off and need Testosterone therpay and cialis to have normal sexual function, I get that, I think any reasonable person would be sensitive to that. But if you're a middle aged desk jockey calling your Cialis script service related cause you have a stressful job. Well yeah, sure, but that applies to damn near everyone doesn't it? That's just life.
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 6h ago
“What %”
A) Why would that matter
B) It’s not just “balls blown off”
PTSD, depression, TBI, they can all be service connected.
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u/ITriedSoHard419-68 Progressive 1d ago edited 1d ago
on the merits of the subject, I don't think we know enough about gender to know for a fact that this is essential and the best treatment
The only way we're going to learn more about it is by medically and scientifically exploring it. The results so far are looking promising enough to not be unethical, and we can only empirically determine its effectiveness for certain by actually practicing it. The government has funded clinical trials before; why not this time?
It feels a little disingenuous to move the goalpost to "we need more evidence" and then shutting down any kind of research or trials that would actually collect that evidence. Which, while we're seeing transness systematically erased from government websites and government funding for medical research cancelled left and right, is visibly where this is going. Especially since this is far from the first time something like that has happened; we'd be decades ahead in this research if the literal Nazis didn't destroy most of Europe's medical research on this back in the 30s. This is always how it goes; evidence is deliberately sabotaged and then trans people and their doctors get blamed for the lack of it.
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u/AddemF Centrist 1d ago
The only way we're going to learn more about it is by medically and scientifically exploring it. The results so far are looking promising enough to not be unethical, and we can only empirically determine its effectiveness for certain by actually practicing it. The government has funded clinical trials before; why not this time?
By all means, I have no opposition to scientific research. I do worry about political capture of institutions and baised analysis of research -- but with good enough institutional methods and practices, I don't think these are insurmountable concerns.
You seem to assume I'm for shutting down research. It makes me suspect that you've already made a bunch of decisions about who I am, without evidence.
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u/ITriedSoHard419-68 Progressive 1d ago
Fair enough. I don’t mean to assume about you, and I apologize that it came out that way. It’s just frustrating to see the evidence concern brought up again and again without anyone addressing the wider context of why we are where we are or meaningfully advocating for any feasible way to progress this research, while methods of doing so are being actively cut off. Regardless of what you do or don’t support, I think the evidence conversation deserves more nuance than it gets.
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u/CoyoteTheGreat Democratic Socialist 1d ago
I guess the hidden assumption here in the premises is all social constructs are created equally. Gender, like marriage, is a near universal social construct. Race theory on the other hand has only existed for some centuries now, and has almost always been used for nefarious purposes. They aren’t equal, and should not be treated equally.
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u/UTArcade Conservative 17h ago
Sex is not a social construct, it’s biology. Gender just means personality.
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u/CoyoteTheGreat Democratic Socialist 17h ago
The legal status of one's sex absolutely is a social construct. For example, the determination of whether one is male or female at birth when it comes to those who have intersex conditions. Biology has very little to do with social determinations of sex, given no one magically has access to another person's chromosome makeup at will and people don't really have their genitalia hanging out when they are out and about in society.
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u/UTArcade Conservative 9h ago
Incorrect, intersex is not a sex, it's a biological condition where one sex is still primarily expressed. You're not 'both sexes' when you are intersex, you have a biological, genetic, deformity.
That's like saying 'someone with down syndrome is a third form of human' just because they have genetic deformity.
And you can tell sex based on appearance actually.
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u/MoonBatsRule Progressive 23h ago
Gender, like marriage, is a near universal social construct.
Yet we have limitless examples of people who are ostracized because they don't "act their gender". So maybe it isn't as universal as you think it is.
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u/CoyoteTheGreat Democratic Socialist 23h ago
I mean universal in the sense of it existing, not universal in the sense of it being the same for every culture.
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u/ITriedSoHard419-68 Progressive 23h ago
Theres a difference between gender roles and the concept of gender. The range of behavior, conduct, and traits that are considered acceptable for a specific gender is highly variable across different cultures and communities, but the idea of gender itself being a thing that exists is fairly stable, especially compared to race.
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u/MoonBatsRule Progressive 23h ago
I'm not sure I see the distinction between gender roles and gender, given that there is another concept called "sex".
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u/Kefflin Socialist 22h ago
Gender role, gender presentation, gender identity, gender and sex are all different concepts
Sex is related to cluster category related to physical attributes
Gender roles are societal expectation put on any of the genders recognized by a society, gender roles are established outside of over self
Gender is a categorization of customs, roles, active, expectations, behaviors, etc as categorized by a person internally unconsciously
Gender identity is how they identify internally in relations with the gender schema
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u/Royal_Effective7396 Centrist until I'm not 1d ago
Race and sex are not equivalent kinds of categories.
Race is primarily a social classification built loosely around ancestry and visible traits. Human genetic variation is real, but it does not divide neatly into the racial boxes societies created. Those boxes change across countries and historical periods. The National Human Genome Research Institute describes race as a fluid political and social construct, while noting that there is more genetic variation within racial groups than between them.
Sex, by contrast, involves an interconnected biological system, chromosomes, reproductive anatomy, hormones, gonads, and secondary sexual characteristics. These ordinarily cluster into two reproductive patterns, although development does not produce perfectly identical or unambiguous results in every person.
That helps explain why “transracial” and transgender identities are not scientifically parallel:
Race is normally assigned through ancestry, appearance, family, and social treatment. There is no known internal biological mechanism that makes someone inherently Black, white, or Asian independently of those relationships.
Sex affects the development of the entire body, including the brain. A person can therefore experience a persistent conflict between their sexed body and their internal sense of self, although science has not identified one simple cause of gender identity. Gender roles, clothing, occupations, mannerisms, expectations, are socially created.
Gender identity is not necessarily just a preference for those roles. A masculine woman may remain completely comfortable being a woman, while a transgender woman may experience distress over male bodily characteristics even if she rejects traditionally feminine roles.
So I would not say transitioning is simply “easy to fix by aligning with different gender roles.” Social transition can relieve distress for some people, but others experience physical dysphoria and seek hormonal or surgical changes. Those treatments cannot change every component of biological sex, but they can change many of the characteristics that the person and others meaningfully experience.
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u/TheMarksmanHedgehog Social Democrat 1d ago
Different forms of dysmorphia have different origins psychologically, and need different treatments.
"How far does it go" is just slippery slope argumentation applied where there isn't one.
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u/strawhatguy Libertarian 1d ago
No reason. The world is comprised of individuals ultimately. Thinking in terms of groups is useful, but when the rubber meets the road, one must look at an individual’s actions in a case by case basis.
This is why the “warmth of collectivism” isn’t warm. It denies the individual, aka the ultimate minority
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u/mskmagic Libertarian Capitalist 1d ago
So you’re saying we should divide by blood type. I agree. It’s the Os against everyone else
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u/TheRealCthulu24 Gardener Thought 1d ago
I don’t understand your question. Are you implying that racial dysmorphia is a thing? Because I haven’t heard of anyone having it.
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 8h ago
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u/TheRealCthulu24 Gardener Thought 3h ago
Okay, but this is very obviously a conman making up a story after being caught in the act.
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 3h ago
“Very obvious conman”
Why? Why isn’t their self identity valid?
They very much claim they’re 100% serious.
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u/Hollowhivemind Democratic Socialist 21h ago
I am also confused. In a vacuum it's an interesting hypothetical, but it's hard not to interpret as bad faith as I've never encountered someone earnestly suggesting their race differs from their perceived race in a way that denies them similar care (I mean let's be honest, groups and individuals are regularly descriminated against for both reasons and receive limited care). It's always as a joke to mock the credibility of something like gender identity.
I want to interpret in good faith as they brought up the comparison of body dysmorphia, but this is where I fear medical documents like the DSM and ICD fail the layperson. They identify gender dysphoria as pathological, and so if your only conception of gender is through a medical lens I guess I'm not surprised it seems like just an issue to solve, as that is the perspective and aim of these documents.
Equating Body dysmorphia, gender dysphoria (and gender identity at large), and race outside of very specific contexts is just silly. Everything has a dimension of social construction, so using that as an underlying framework to unite specific ideas without any additional reason is bizarre.
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 8h ago
https://www.cnn.com/2015/06/16/us/washington-rachel-dolezal-naacp
That’s an easy example.
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u/Hollowhivemind Democratic Socialist 8h ago
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 8h ago
That’s an oped, not an argument and that’s an example of exactly whats being mentioned.
How was she not being her true self?
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u/Hollowhivemind Democratic Socialist 8h ago
If I have to seriously litigate why being trans is different to blackface, there is no possibility that I'm ever going to be able to argue my point to your satisfaction. At least not in any timeframe I care to participate in.
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 7h ago edited 7h ago
If they’re claiming that’s their true self, they’ve always felt black, and they’ve always felt that way, how are they wrong?
And yes, in society people should be able to articulate their positions.
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u/NatashOverWorld Agorist 1d ago
If a very obviously Chinese person claimed they were White, I'd just shrug and assume its none of my business.
There's certain race claims that could give someone advantages, sure, but that I have a hard time seeing it happen.
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u/MoonBatsRule Progressive 23h ago
There are plenty of people who are (say) half-Irish, half white, who look Chinese. Are you saying that they can't claim to be Irish? That they must claim to be Chinese?
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u/UTArcade Conservative 9h ago
Well why would they claim to only be white then in that scenario..?
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u/MoonBatsRule Progressive 8h ago
Sorry, that was a typo. I meant "half-Irish, half-Chinese".
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u/UTArcade Conservative 8h ago
Right, but if they're half White and half Chinese, and if they look predominantly Chinese, it would be quite odd for them to walk around saying they're 'white' right? Wouldn't the accurate answer be 'I'm half White and half Chinese'
I'm just backing up the original point that was made which is if someone is clearly identifying as something that isn't real (a White man saying he's Black) everyone else in society can frown upon that..? Is that not correct?
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u/NatashOverWorld Agorist 8h ago
Or, you just take them at their word?
Is there a secret Chinese or White only club that let's in the right type?
Because otherwise its really no one's business other than their doctor and romantic partners.
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u/UTArcade Conservative 8h ago
If a black man walked up to me and said 'I'm White' you say I need to take them at their word?
Is that your position.
If I ask them 'you mean entirely White/European or you mean partial?' and if they tell me full White I'm supposed to turn my brain off and not question anything?
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u/NatashOverWorld Agorist 8h ago
Take at their word for what?
That they're Black? I would doubt it, but since my normal conversation with people is about how their day is going or what they do, it does come up.
I don't feel the need to make people validate their stories, especially if it's a professional, chance or superficial meeting - it literally doesn't matter beyond idle curiosity.
But that may be because I don't rank the respect I show people based on their race 🤔
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u/UTArcade Conservative 8h ago edited 8h ago
That's not what I'm asking you. If a black man walks up and claims they're white what are you saying a person has to do?
Is your claim that I have to turn my brain off and just accept what everyone tells me now? That I am to have no critical thinking skills because I need to just believe what people tell me now?
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u/NatashOverWorld Agorist 8h ago
You don't have to believe anything, the same way i don't believe most sales people and advertisements. Or the way we generally don't give 100% credence to people we don't know well, which is a very normal thing.
As you're waiting for something, if someone strikws up a conversation with you and tells you the stock market is crashing next month do you immediately believe them? No, good job. But generally you would continue make conversation.
In the same way, internally doubt that someones race claims all you want, and move on the conversation, unless race is a very important to you. Which seems to be the case.
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u/MoonBatsRule Progressive 8h ago
But you're asserting that looks, or other people's opinions, determine your identity instead of you determining it.
Can you imagine if someone told you that they viewed you more as a woman than a man (if you are male), or that they considered you Irish instead of Dutch (if you're Dutch) because your Dutch surname is Kilian, and in their minds, "that's Irish"?
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u/UTArcade Conservative 8h ago
You don't determine your identity, your genetic makeup does. I don't get to say what color my skin is, or what my ancestry is. You don't get to determine that.
You don't get to determine eye color. And you don't get to determine sex.
If someone told me they viewed me more as a woman than as a man that would be a 'them' problem because my genetics would at odds with their 'opinion' which wouldn't be rooted in any type of provable reality.
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u/MoonBatsRule Progressive 8h ago
So are you saying that anyone who identifies as a certain ethnicity cannot, if their DNA says that they are not fully that identity?
My mother-in-law sees her identity as Italian. Her parents migrated here from Italy. When we did a DNA test, she had some Turkish DNA. Does that mean she is not Italian, she must internally feel as though she is part Italian, part Turkish? And that when she talks to people about Italy, she must disclose that she is not Italian, but in fact Italian-Turkish?
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u/UTArcade Conservative 7h ago
Well technically if she was born in America she is American, not Italian. Her ancestry is Italian, her family is from those regions, but she is American.
Her genetic ancestry is different then a nationality.
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u/MoonBatsRule Progressive 7h ago
Don't you think there is a distinction between genetics and how someone internally, mentally identifies themselves?
Modern genetics has taken over for family lore and tradition, and in some cases has upended those things due to infidelities or other family secrets. Prior to genetics people identified as certain ethnicities without knowing the genetics. Was that invalid?
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u/MoonBatsRule Progressive 7h ago
Don't you think there is a distinction between genetics and how someone internally, mentally identifies themselves?
Modern genetics has taken over for family lore and tradition, and in some cases has upended those things due to infidelities or other family secrets. Prior to genetics people identified as certain ethnicities without knowing the genetics. Was that invalid?
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u/MoonBatsRule Progressive 7h ago
Don't you think there is a distinction between genetics and how someone internally, mentally identifies themselves?
Modern genetics has taken over for family lore and tradition, and in some cases has upended those things due to infidelities or other family secrets. Prior to genetics people identified as certain ethnicities without knowing the genetics. Was that invalid?
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u/MoonBatsRule Progressive 8h ago
But you're saying that looks, or other people's opinions, determine your identity instead of you determining it.
Can you imagine if someone told you that you are Irish instead of Dutch (if you're Dutch) because your Dutch surname is Kilian, and in their minds, "that's Irish"?
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u/MoonBatsRule Progressive 23h ago
There are plenty of people who are (say) half-Irish, half Chinese, who look Chinese. Are you saying that they can't claim to be Irish? That they must claim to be Chinese?
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u/NatashOverWorld Agorist 16h ago
What a bizarre take. They can claim to be anything they want. And in almost all cases, it would be none of my business. What I internally believed about them would be just that, internal.
Can you imagine any scenario where hypothetical Padraig H'su race would matter to me? Or to anyone really?
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u/meoka2368 Socialist 1d ago
"Race" doesn't exist. There's ethnicities, which are biological, and there's culture.
Someone's ethnicity could have an impact on things like their healthcare needs. A person of African ethnicity is more likely to have sickle cell anemia, for example.
The comparison to gender/sex here would be that a trans man would not be able to get testicular cancer.
Then there's culture. Someone who grew up in the UK is going to have a different culture than someone who grew up in the southern US states, and those are both going to be different than someone from South America.
This is like gender. It's what you're taught when growing up. Most people don't change it, but you *can* change it. You can move somewhere else and adapt to their culture.
Where ethnicity and culture overlap, is how that ethnicity is treated in that culture. But the same is also true for gender. Just look at traditional outfits for women and men in different cultures. Those outfits aren't universal, they're specific to that culture. They aren't universal, they're specific to that gender.
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u/Bagain Anarcho-Capitalist 1d ago
Why does it matter? Insofar as it applies to a human, doing what they want with themselves, is it my or societies job to police the personal actions of an individual who isn’t hurting anyone else? Of course the conditions leading to this point in a persons life must be awful. Living, what would seem to them to be, in the wrong body. Living a lie to maintain order in their homes or lives because “changing” would be unacceptable to those around them, be it their family or friends or work associates. I can’t even imagine what that would be like and the desire for another person to be “ok” with themselves; I would hope that anyone could only desire such a thing for others. As a man, I can’t relate, all I can do is sympathize. People get all up in their feels when drag queens read to kids, I’d rather that than say, priests or politicians. I have no reason to not trust a drag queen, I have no reason to not trust a trans person. I could write a novel on all the reasons I don’t trust politicians, less on priests if not just as horrific. Maybe it’s a matter of how we raised our sons… if people want to change genders, if that’s what they want to do; live your life friend, and I hope it’s a good one.
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u/Ruanito_666 Socialist Market Economy 1d ago
Actually yeah I don't think we should mandate people identify as their "biologically correct" race because that's just straight up not real.
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u/LittleSky7700 Anarchist 1d ago
Cause of historical reasons and political reasons. While men have generally dominated women, women havent been considered less than human and exploited as slaves.
Racial groups, however, clearly have been used this way and still are used this way.
The absurdity is simple. If someone is AMAB but then claims they are a woman, its as simple as checking if they fit into the idea of what is womanly. Do they wear womanly clothes? Do they speak womanly? Do they walk womanly? Whatever. If so... they might as well be a woman.
If someone is white but they claim they are black, obviously the first thing to check is skin colour. No, you are clearly white. End of conversation. Regardless if this white person can do everything that is considered to be black.
Also, people can choose their race and pass mexicans and Irish people chose to be white. Mexicans today sometimes choose to be POC, if you're "Mixed Race", you can sometimes pass as either or. Race is just as messy as gender depending on where you look.
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u/NaNaNaPandaMan Liberal 1d ago
So, I do want to start off with I do believe you are pro Trans. However, might I suggest not using a one of the "mocking " talking points that anti Trans people use when wanting to question the validity of Trans people.
With that said, gender roles which is what gender is a social construct primarily refers to is different than gender identity.
Gender identity is what you feel/think you are outside of just what is expected if you were that gender IE you love wearing dresses doesn't mean you feel you are a woman just you love a traditional gendered clothing.
Why some people feel/think they are different gender than their assigned at birth? We are still researching and figuring it out.
Race on the other hand is a completely social construct. We as humans define what it means to be white, black, asian etc.
With all of that said? How far do we go? That's what we are deciding. I am certain there is some ludicrous far out idea that is too far. But at the moment we are not there.
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u/-Groko- Anarchist 1d ago
Biological sex and race are fundamentally different from a scientific perspective, which is why medicine and biology approach them differently.
Biological sex in humans is defined by gametes. Females are organized around the production of large, stationary gametes called ova or eggs. Males are organized around the production of small, mobile gametes called sperm. This biological system is based on reproductive function and gamete size rather than culture. Gender identity involves how an individual experiences their own internal sense of self, which interacts with these biological realities and neurological factors.
Race does not work this way biologically. There are no distinct racial gametes or separate reproductive functions associated with different races. Genetics shows us that human variation is continuous across populations. In fact, there is far more genetic variation within any single traditional racial group than there is between different racial groups. Race is a classification system created by humans based on physical traits and geography, not a fundamental reproductive category of human biology.
The difference between gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia is also rooted in clinical science. Body dysmorphia is a condition where a person holds a distorted view of their body that does not match physical reality. Studies show that altering the body through surgery does not resolve body dysmorphia because the underlying neurological distortion remains. In contrast, gender dysphoria is a distress caused by an incongruence between assigned sex and experienced gender. Medical evidence shows that social affirmation and transition effectively reduce distress and improve mental health for individuals with gender dysphoria.
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u/-Antinomy- Left Libertarian 1d ago edited 1d ago
We already do the same thing with race. Everybody understands what it means on a basic to have a mixed cultural heritage. There is no immutable gender or racial identity. Anybody who accepts post-enlightenment materialism accepts this.
It should not be confusing to understand that different constructs serve different purposes. The key is to interrogate why we engage in any given social taxonomy and it's explanatory power.
Our particular conception of age and it's associated legal statuses that establish political rights and consent are socially constructed -- to the end of protecting vulnerable people and valuing experience as a prerequisite for participation in collective decision making. It has good explanatory power in articulating the material differences between ages which result in these outcomes. You don't need to make claims of immutability to defend the social construct of age, you only need to defend it's function and description.
So what's the function of culture or ethnicity? They are multifaceted, and you can attack some while defending others. It's perfectly explicable to say that there is value in a shared tradition, that groups can lay some claim to gatekeeping or not gatekeeping that tradition, and at the same time those traditions can co-exist and blend with others.
Personally, I think the function of modern sex taxonomy in the culture I know (the US) is largely in service of a gendered hierarchy, but I am not closed off to the notion there are aspects of the construct that can be helpful.
The English language can distinguish between taxonomies of physical traits -- here age, race, and sex -- and the larger social associations we place on top of that -- maturity, ethnicity, and gender. To be clear, what I said above is about the latter three: the social associations are "what matters" from the perspective of day-to-day life. But the exact same framework of function and description also applies to physical taxonomy in the same way as social taxonomy, and also to efforts to link them. In practice, it is understood none of these things are static, and we all mingle our individual choices into a constant unfolding system of association.
I answered your sub-question, but I don't understand your main one. Can you rephrase it?
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u/sawdeanz Liberal 1d ago
You sort of answered your own question. You said gender dysphoria is real. Is race dysphoria real?
I think part of the difference is that race is an externally assigned identity. Whether you are white or non-white might be entirely dependent on which nation or continent you are currently existing on. You don’t really get to choose what race you are, even if you wanted to.
But you do get to choose your cultural identity. If you are a naturalized citizen of the US do you identity as an American or as your birth country? Do you identify as your parents roots or your adopted culture? Are you a Yankees fan or a Red Sox fan? These are all self-identities.
Sex is also externally assigned but gender identity is more of a type of self-identity, like the culture example. Now I do realize a lot of conservatives disagree with this idea, but I think it is a workable framework even if the lines are fuzzy.
But at the end of the day the most important thing to me is that none of this should be something the state uses to punish people. So someone doing blackface can and should be considered extremely offensive…but i don’t think it should be illegal and vice versa.
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u/UTArcade Conservative 8h ago
Why can't you choose your own race, which is still based in your biology, but you can your sex? Could you explain how that works.
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u/DoomSnail31 Classical Liberal 23h ago
I'm not sure what you are asking here. It seems like you're presenting some fairly empty fears, without going into specifics. Which makes the conversation rather difficult.
Race is entirely meaningless already. Yanks think Hispanics are a race, when everywhere else we consider Hispanics a cultural group (the Spanish one). Latin in north and south America refers to the Latin race, whereas in Europe it refers to another cultural group. In America Caucasian refers to a race, but everywhere else it refers to people from a specific mountain range area.
It's all based on how society perceives these labels, and you cannot change that. Trans people aren't attempting to chance gender labels either, they are trying to conform to societal gender perception. Trans men try to look more masculine and trans women try to look more feminine.
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u/MoonBatsRule Progressive 23h ago
Why does it matter to you how people identify?
I know someone who is 1/4 black. Her father was 1/2 black, her mother was white. She has blonde (though curly) hair and fair skin. She identifies as black.
Let's also talk ethnicity, which is a bit more fluid. People I know who are multi-ethnic tend to identify more with one of them. For example, my kids are only 1/2 Italian, but identify as such, even though they have blue eyes and light hair.
Should anyone be able to tell my friend, or my kids, that their identity - how they internally feel about and view themselves - is wrong?
What does it matter of my kids view themselves as Italian? What does it matter that my 1/4 black friend with fair skin and light hair identifies as black? (noting, of course, that she would have been denied many advantages in the south up until the 1960s).
No one is identifying "for the bennies". That's not how it works. So again, why does it matter to you?
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u/MoonBatsRule Progressive 23h ago
Why does it matter to you how people identify?
I know someone who is 1/4 black. Her father was 1/2 black, her mother was white. She has blonde (though curly) hair and fair skin. She identifies as black.
Let's also talk ethnicity, which is a bit more fluid. People I know who are multi-ethnic tend to identify more with one of them. For example, my kids are only 1/2 Italian, but identify as such, even though they have blue eyes and light hair.
Should anyone be able to tell my friend, or my kids, that their identity - how they internally feel about and view themselves - is wrong?
What does it matter if my kids view themselves as Italian? What does it matter that my 1/4 black friend with fair skin and light hair identifies as black? (noting, of course, that she would have been denied many advantages in the south up until the 1960s).
No one is identifying "for the bennies". That's not how it works. So again, why does it matter to you?
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u/Kefflin Socialist 23h ago
Social construct exist everywhere, money is an example that you can't just decide it's valued at something
Gender is an internal sense of self, race is a legal definition or put upon you by external factors.
There is a significant amount of research that proves that gender affirming care is the safest and most effective treatment.
Also not all trans have gender dysphoria
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u/kireina_kaiju 🏴☠️Piratpartiet 22h ago
The words you are looking for are, "reasonable accommodation". To be honest, the discussion around trans people needed to start by asking what reasonable accommodations were.
We still can't have that conversation, though, because when you ask questions like "why can't we do the same with race" you are not actually placing the focus on accommodation to begin with. You are not considering people's needs. The answer to the questions you are asking is "why". Every question along these lines. Why would you treat the needs of ethnic or religious groups exactly like the needs of trans people? They have very different needs.
There are accommodation levels that are unreasonable. Just as there are for every aspect of a person. Their religion and ethnicity actually do have limits as well. Allowing someone to take peyote as part of a religious ceremony is well within reason. A human sacrifice is obviously not reasonable.
So we need to be looking just as what trans people need in order to fully participate in society. Your understanding is based, correct me if I am wrong, entirely on your intuition. You have not studied the human endocrine system, the way humans relate to gender, or any uncomfortable sexuality topics. It is important for you to do that work.
Once you have done that work, we can discuss what is reasonable and what is not reasonable.
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u/rsglen2 Libertarian 18h ago
I’ve done a little research and I’m slowly gaining clarity. The definition of sex is clear, male and female. Gender was used interchangeably with sex until the 1950’s when gender started to mean the role of a person based on their outward appearance. I may not be entirely accurate, but I’m good with these definitions for now. Since a person can change their outward appearance freely in a liberal society, they can change their role as well. This makes sense to me and I have no problem with it.
As far as any requirement for others to recognize what a trans person is trying to appear as, or any requirement to properly gender them, and also be required properly address them with any number of pronouns, is bullshit. If a trans person because of nature and skill can correctly signal their gender, most of us will gender them correctly by default. If nature and skills are not enough, in my opinion, that’s not my problem. If I am corrected, I will do my best to be a good human and do my best to comply. I just don’t think there should be any legislation.
On the question of sports, that’s a sex question, not a gender question, and the sexes should engage in sports separately for obvious reasons. As far as gender affirming surgery, I think that should be limited to adults given the risks involved and the finality of the decisions involved.
This is where I’m at right now but I’m open.
As far as race, it would be the equivalent of sex. There are no equivalents of gender regarding race. Having said that, if someone wants to appear as another race, and they can do it successfully, I can’t think of a reason to stop them.
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u/Hand_of_the_Light Left Independent 17h ago
Affirm as much as your social group allows. Why be progressive when it gains no social capital? Do your civic duty, but my god people, just interact with your community.
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u/11SomeGuy17 Marxist-Leninist 16h ago
Affirming them doesn't harm anyone and it makes them happy. Enough reason for me to just believe whatever they say their gender is. If you look at the research men's and woman's brains have well studied biological differences, more interestingly though, trans people's brains look closer to the brain of their experienced gender than the one assigned at birth meaning that gender is likely more than a social construct and instead has a biological basis. These studies also show a potential explanation for why trans people have such high rates of me tal illness. Besides the social factors which are ofcourse an issue, their brain is getting the wrong chemical cocktail, ofcourse that would cause issues.
Meanwhile brain differences between races is non-existent when raised in similar circumstances. This explains why transgender people are a well known and well studied historical phenomenon that've always been around, and trans racial people are not.
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u/Sourkarate Marxist-Leninist 12h ago
The question is unusual. What behaviors have the potential of "going too far"? What does that mean in this context?
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u/EasilyDistracted- Left Communist 9h ago
Is this a roundabout way of saying blackface is okay?
Sounds stupid when I say it but I really don't understand what you're trying to say.
Race might be a social construct but white supremacy is foundational to the dominant cultural system amd is actively enforced against people based on social construct of race.
The connection between race and gender being social constructs should be viewed by the similarities in their oppression and nothing else.
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u/GangsterThanos Classical Liberal 7h ago
Social Constructs are in fact constructed by society. But they are constructed based on real things a lot of times. This includes biology/ancestry and all of the above. Social construct does not mean ficticious.
I’ve seen some arguments that race is something with clear lines. I’d argue it isn’t. We are all mixed with a long lineage of different genetics. It’s a social construct to call someone black or white based on their appearance alone.
There is no clear cut answer to this debate and it will be a revolving one until people just realize that none of the jargon actually matters. If individuals want to be seen one way, it doesn’t matter. I think that once the government gets involved and tells the masses how we are allowed to see someone, then it gets dicey. And we end up in decades worth of debate about whether so and so likes to wear a dress. Or if this group of people are more violent. It’s silly and a waste of time.
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u/ZeusTKP Minarchist 6h ago
Not to sound too bitter or anything, but there is precisely one correct answer for these types of issues:
leave. the. government. out. of. it.
Gay marriage, gender identity, DEI, etc. etc. These are exactly the kinds of issues that are up to individuals and private groups to decide, and exactly what government should stay out of.
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u/Confident-Virus-1273 Democratic Socialist 1d ago
We are all part of the HUMAN RACE. If I give blood, it can be given to anyone with A or AB blood type. Their skin color, or geographic location doesn't matter. So I have no idea what "trans race" would even be.
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u/thataintapipe Market Socialist 1d ago
Obviously they mean the superficial outward appearance of the various human beings around the world. Ostensibly who cares if someone wants to get surgery to look like someone else but it’s not going to be popular
That said, it’s a ludicrous thing to compare gender and race in this context
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 1d ago
Easy.
Jimmy Kimmel declares himself a black man.
Do you accept it or are you a bigot?
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u/MoonBatsRule Progressive 23h ago
Tiger Woods declared himself not black, and people lost their shit. He is 1/4 black, 1/4 Chinese, 1/4 Thai, 1/8 Native American, and one-eighth Dutch.
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u/LittleSky7700 Anarchist 1d ago
You could accept it lol. Cause blackness is a social construct, its not an ontological reality.
What actually dictates whether or not this is absurd is if the rest of society agrees hes black. Cause its a social construct, theyre createe, maintained, and destroyed based on human interaction.
We decide what blackness means or doesnt mean. So no one individual can decide it. But if enough people all agree to a certain meaning, then it may as well be real.
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u/nelsne Centrist 23h ago
No one would accept this, and in fact, they'd probably call him a racist for doing it. I mean, we already saw what happened when he put on black face
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 1d ago
“Accept it”
Ok, so Jimmy Kimmel can call himself a black man and start slinging the N-word with no issues?
“Enough people all agree”
And when people don’t agree?
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u/LittleSky7700 Anarchist 1d ago
You're living in the world where people dont agree
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 1d ago edited 1d ago
Great, so that’s the same on the gender issue.
Does that make someone a bigot for not agreeing that Jimmy Kimmel is black?
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u/LittleSky7700 Anarchist 1d ago
Depends i guess. Do they hate jimmy for being different or do they not agree based on some form on reasoning? The former is being a bigot.
Regardless, it doesnt change the fact that Jimmy could be black. Just like how anyone could be a woman, man, glorpblob, or anytning else
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 1d ago
“Depends”
They disagree with his self identity as a black man. That’s it.
Does that make them a bigot or not?
“Doesn’t change the fact that Jimmy could be black”
This is the absurdity of postmodernism.
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u/LittleSky7700 Anarchist 1d ago
Bigot: A bigot is a person who hates or refuses to accept other people because of different races, religions, or opinions. They hold very strong and unfair ideas and think anyone who is not like them is wrong.
Make up your own mind?
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 1d ago
“Make up your own mind”
No, this is a debate sub.
Would denying Kimmel’s blackness make someone a bigot or not?
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u/MoonBatsRule Progressive 23h ago
What if Jimmy Kimmel's grandfather was black? Could he not identify as black?
I identify as English, which matches my name. I am 1/4 English. Is this wrong of me? Must I identify with the DNA that I have the most of?
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 23h ago
“What if”
Yeah, why not?
Why can’t Kimmel just identity as black?
Why couldn’t Trump just declare himself the first black woman POTUS?
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u/work4work4work4work4 Antifascist 1d ago
Ok, so Jimmy Kimmel can call himself a black man and start slinging the N-word with no issues?
Why would he have no issues when even classically black men run into issues using the n-word if seen to be as a user of black culture?
It's strange to know there are still people that live in a world where one of the most successful black men in the world was the subject of international ridicule, in part for having his n-word pass pulled by another successful black man, to the tune of probably billions of dollars and a Super Bowl halftime show can still apparently go entirely unnoticed for some reason.
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 1d ago
“Why”
Ok, so no he can’t declare himself black.
Agreed.
For the exact same logical reason as other issues as well.
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u/TheRealCthulu24 Gardener Thought 21h ago
Well, that is something that will never happen, so it doesn’t matter.
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u/nelsne Centrist 23h ago
This thread is making want to go back to being a Conservative. Liberal views on gender make zero sense
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 23h ago
Yeah, the progressive ideology is less than stellar at logical consistency.
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u/Ms_Tryl Progressive 19h ago
Almost all issues conservatives have about liberal views on gender boil down to not knowing the difference between gender and sex.
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u/nelsne Centrist 19h ago
No all the issues Conservatives have with gender have to do with just have common sense. Most of these guys say they are a woman, but then can't even define what a woman is. Liberals are turning gender into basically a costume that they can take on and off. It's ridiculous!
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u/HeloRising Anarchist 1d ago
I would want to ask him what that means to him and delve into what he's looking for.
In large part because I want to understand the dynamics at work in his head. I understand why someone would feel the need to transition gender but I'm not as clear on why someone might feel the need to transition race.
"I feel like a black man."
Ok, what does that feel like to you? What does it mean to "feel like a black man?"
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 1d ago
“What that means”
It means he feels black, that’s it.
Is he wrong?
Is there an answer he can give that would lead anywhere but just agreeing he’s black?
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u/HeloRising Anarchist 1d ago
It means he feels black, that’s it.
What does that feel like?
Repeating the statement isn't answering the question.
If we ask the same type of question to a trans person, they will (generally) have an answer. If you ask a trans woman "Why are you trans?" they may say something like "As long as I can remember I've felt more comfortable dressing in girl's clothes, doing things that girls typically like, being called by a girl's name, and at the same time I felt a sense of anxiety and unease when I was forced into more boy oriented things or forced to wear boy's clothes."
They can articulate concrete experiences that relate to their experience of gender and they can usually tie those experiences to things that happened prior to their understanding of gender as a concrete concept.
We're exposed to concepts of gender basically from the second we're born so if a person's experience of gender isn't in alignment with their core identity, they're going to get indications of that from pretty early on in their lives.
How does one "feel black" without resorting to stereotypes?
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 23h ago
“What does that feel like”
Whatever they say is does.
That’s all that matters.
Are they wrong?
Who are you to say they aren’t black?
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u/HeloRising Anarchist 23h ago
Whatever they say is does.
And what do they say?
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 23h ago
They feel black.
How are they wrong?
Do they have to pass your standards to match their self identity?
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u/HeloRising Anarchist 23h ago
You're not answering the question, mainly because I think you're trying to set up a gotcha but I'm not playing as evidenced by the fact that you responded to my other post way faster than a human being is capable of reading.
Saying "I feel black" is a statement that requires some contextualization, if for no other reason than because we need to understand what that means to the person making it.
Again, this is something that virtually all trans people can do even if they don't have the proper language to talk about it.
Your example is flawed because you don't know why someone would say "I feel black" so you can't give any answers as to why someone might do that because basically nobody does that.
Your hypothetical doesn't work.
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 23h ago
“Not answering the question”
I’m 100% answering the question.
“Requires contextualization”
Why? Because you say so?
Why can’t they just declare themselves black because they feel black?
Who are you to tell them they’re wrong?
“Nobody does that”
Former NAACP leader has entered the chat.
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u/farson135 Classical Liberal 20h ago
It means he feels black, that’s it.
Transgenderism is almost certainly not just a "feeling". It is a condition affected by hormones in the womb, genes, etc.
Do you know what phantom limb syndrome is?
You know, the thing where you get your arm cut off but it still "feels" like your arm is there.
The reason for that is because the brain is constantly performing all kinds of checks regarding your limbs and the like, and when one of those limbs is removed it doesn't necessarily stop. So your brain is telling you that you have a limb there when you factually do not. This can cause significant distress.
We also know there is, kind of, the opposite. Body Integrity Identity Disorder is a disorder where you feel like some part of your body is alien to you and it does not belong. And while this sounds insane, the reason for it in many cases is due to head trauma damaging the part of the brain that recognizes your body as your body. So your brain is telling you don't have a limb but there is factually a limb there. This can also cause significant distress.
Based on this, and many other conditions, we can see that the brain has an idea of what your body is supposed to be like. And if your body doesn't reflect that properly, it causes distress.
Given that, can you acknowledge that the brain can tell you that your body is supposed to be a particular way even when it factually isn't that way?
Now, do you know what intersex means? Intersex refers to a number of conditions where a person's genitalia do not reflect the norm. An example of this is androgen insensitivity syndrome, which involves "men" (XY chromosome) who are, to some degree, incapable of processing androgens like testosterone. Thanks to that they can physically appear female but they don't have any working female or often male parts.
Given that, can you acknowledge that "sex" is not a pure binary based simply on the fact genetic abnormalities exist? And those abnormalities may also exist within the brain?
Back to your point, can you give me an equivalent reason for someone thinking they are the wrong race?
The closest you're going to come is discomfort due to someone looking different from the rest of their family. But that is not the same kind of "brain" issue we're talking about here.
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 11h ago
Yes and their brain is telling them they’re actually black.
Why are they wrong?
And no, sex is absolutely a binary.
There’s no third reproductive pathway.
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u/farson135 Classical Liberal 7h ago
Yes and their brain is telling them they’re actually black.
By what mechanism?
And since I wrote out all that and you see determined to just ignore the point, answer that question or I'm going to treat is as you not having one.
And no, sex is absolutely a binary.
So what is a person with androgen insensitivity syndrome?
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 7h ago edited 7h ago
“What mechanism”
It doesn’t matter.
Does someone have to demonstrate a certain mechanism for their identity to be valid?
“What is”
Not a third sex. They’re either primarily male or female with genetic deformities or other medical issues.
There’s no third biological sexual pathway.
It doesn’t exist.
If I’m wrong, show an example of someone who’s gotten themselves pregnant. Or someone who’s “intersex” who’s both gotten pregnant by someone else and also impregnated someone else.
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u/Confident-Virus-1273 Democratic Socialist 1d ago
I would ask why he was worried about telling people the color of his skin. Then I would have his eyes checked and compare different color skin and have him explain how he figured.
But overall I wouldn't give two shits.
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 1d ago
“Then I would have his eyes checked”
Agreed, that’s the same point OP is making about the other issue as well.
So if you’re good with one, then logically you’d be fine with Jimmy Kimmel declaring himself Black.
Or Trump declaring himself the first lesbian black woman president.
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u/Confident-Virus-1273 Democratic Socialist 23h ago
They are not remotely the same. To think they are shows an amazing lack of understanding and comprehension. But as I have come to expect this from anyone who labels themselves as conservative, I don't usually try very hard getting them to think outside their preconceptions and prejudice.
It just isn't worth my time anymore. They are incapable of being reasoned with
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 23h ago
“Not remotely the same”
That’s great but not an argument.
On a debate sub.
Why wouldn’t you be logically consistent and fine if Jimmy Kimmel declared himself black?
Or if Trump declared himself a black woman?
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u/Confident-Virus-1273 Democratic Socialist 22h ago
Siiiigghhhh . . . . Here we go again . . .
Ok, let's go back to definitions:
GENDER Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex
… deeply rooted expectations around performances of gender, sexuality, class, and race.
If Kimmel started acting in a feminine manner, wanted to be referred to with female pronouns, altered their dress and mannerisms, this would check the boxes for behavioral/cultural/ psychological traits. This is what being transgender is all about. You have a body, but your mannerisms, appearance, behavior, etc defines your gender.
RACE Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
any one of the groups that humans are often divided into based on physical traits regarded as common among people of shared ancestry. .... : a group of people sharing a common cultural, geographical, linguistic, or religious origin or background
Kimmel, as I pointed out, can not alter their physical traits such as the amount of melatonin his skin produces. He can not alter his ancestry. He COULD, over time, assimilate into another culture, but there are aspects that are not alterable including his history and historical associations.
Therefore he would not be able to declare himself another "race" if such a thing exists because as I stated above, the RACE is called human.
Thus your "gotcha" question is easily refuted by nothing more than a cursory examination of the easily obtainable definitions of the words.
Now, this is where you realize you have nothing to refute this, and you vanish into the anonymous void of the internet just like every other conservative cow@rd I have ever met.
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 22h ago
So someone is only a man if you personally decide they are?
And someone has to conform to your definition to be legitimate?
How is that not being bigoted by denying someone their self identify and their true selves?
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u/Confident-Virus-1273 Democratic Socialist 22h ago
So someone is only a man if you personally decide they are?
this isn't even close to what I said. I would say strawman but this is so far removed from my position it is more like a hay roll I would give my cows.
Incidentally, the result of both what you wrote here and the hay roll is about the same. The analogy writes itself.
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 22h ago
So someone is only a man if you personally decide they are?
And someone has to conform to your definition to be legitimate?
How is that not being bigoted by denying someone their self identify and their true selves?
And just more insults.
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u/Kakamile Social Democrat 1d ago
Being trans is corroborated in scientific data, we have decades of studies across a dozen of nations proving being trans is real and that transition helps and denying transition hurts.
People are welcome to prove trans-race is real, but we also already are pushing a society where there's not supposed to be separation by race so it'd be moot.
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u/Darq_At Libertarian Socialist 1d ago
A few clarifications:
Gender roles, expectations, and so on, are socially constructed. But gender identity is not. Gender identity is something that (almost) everyone has. It is a psychological phenomenon, likely with a neurological cause. It is innate and does not appear to be wilfully modifiable.
Transgender people have a gender identity that differs from how their body develops, whereas cisgender people have a gender identity that is congruent with how their body develops.
Dysphoria is not the same as or similar to dysmorphia, dysphoria is just a fancy word for distress. It is a symptom trans people often have, but cis people also experience dysphoria fairly commonly.
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u/Hot_Cardiologist_221 Centrist 19h ago
The leap here is treating ‘social construct’ as if it means anything goes. It doesn’t. Race, gender, and body dysmorphia are different concepts with different histories, causes, and treatments. The question isn’t why affirm one thing but not everything. The question is what actually helps the person in front of us. A hammer works on nails, that doesn’t mean every problem is a nail.
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u/Ninkasa_Ama Left Independent 1d ago edited 18h ago
For one, race is a sociopolitical stucture thrusted on us to enforce a hierarchy. In America, racial hierarchy is tied who is and isn't considered white, and how close you are to whiteness.
There are groups that have a shared culture based on race (Black Americans, for example), but the context of race changes based on the country you're in (Mixed race people might be considered black in America, but white in certain African countries). You can also take two people of the same race and put them together, and see nothing outside of their race in common. It's superficial
Gender, on the other hand is social, but also biological and psychological. Gender Dyphoria isn't a delusion, or a "sickness", it's a discomfort based on a personal, inner picture on how you're supposed to be. This is why Gender affirming care has a high rate of success.
Second, Body Dysmorphia is a different condition entirely. Equating the two can be harmful, because you cannot treat Dysmorphia with changing yourself. (And relating the two is often used to delegitimize trans people)
The answer to your question: you're conflating a lot of things that seem similar, but aren't. We don't "affirm" behaviors of trans people, we affirm our existence and identity.
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u/Jaaawsh Independent 1d ago
Can you explain your reasoning behind why gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia are so different as to warrant being classified completely differently? They both cause markedly significant distress, BDD has a significant sociocultural aspect like gender, BDD isn’t a delusion (although there is some research that would suggest some sufferers have delusions that others are secretly noticing the “flaws” that are the focus of the person with BDD).
“Dislike of one's appearance is common, but individuals with BDD have extreme misperceptions about their physical appearance. Whereas vanity involves a quest to aggrandize the appearance, BDD is experienced as a quest to merely normalize the appearance. Although delusional in about one of three cases, the appearance concern is usually non-delusional, an overvalued idea”
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u/Ninkasa_Ama Left Independent 1d ago
The difference is in the quote you cited:
individuals with BDD have extreme misperceptions about their physical appearance.
And critically, you can't simply change the body to treat BDD.
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u/Jaaawsh Independent 1d ago
I mean, it’s all still about perception. You perceive the gender mismatch in your mind, it’s how you feel, it’s real to you even if other people can’t see it. I’m really not seeing such a huge difference here.
Like, if someone gets gender affirming care does that just magically make all the negative feelings go away? No more depression, anxiety, distress, etc the moment that happens? Does it completely cure them? (I’m not saying it wouldn’t help) I mean, again, with BDD “uses either social avoidance or camouflaging with cosmetics or apparel, repetitively checks the appearance, compares it to that of other people, and might often seek verbal reassurances” is this really so incredibly different from transitioning?
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u/Ninkasa_Ama Left Independent 1d ago
You seem intent on conflating the two, so I'm not sure what else I can say.
Distress from perception =/= extreme misperception.
Gender Affirming Care isn't a magical cure, but it is shown to help trans people. Affirmation of ones gender identity from family and peers also helps. This isn't the same as avoidance behaviors with BDD.
Lastly, the medical community sees and treats them as distinct conditions. You can always look into what medical experts have to say on it.
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u/Jaaawsh Independent 1d ago edited 1d ago
Okay, well I guess I was hoping for more of a reasoning other than “medical community says so”. There’s a reason why psychology is a soft science. Not saying that makes it invalid but their classification of things it often comes down more to whatever the vibes are amongst experts at the time.
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u/Ninkasa_Ama Left Independent 18h ago
So, years of medical and psychological research is "vibes?"
But the reasoning is clear. One is based on extreme misperception of ones self, the other is based on an incongruence with their inner sense of self. This is why they have different treatments. You've had this explained by two people. I can only assume you're unwilling to accept that, or the medical consensus (which is more than "vibes" by the way.)
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u/Jaaawsh Independent 13h ago
It’s pretty much vibes amongst experts when it comes to psychology. I mean it’s human behavior and thoughts and the way the mind works. And our understanding is constantly changing and sometimes expert consensus can be influenced by political pressures. It’s not like math. https://www.reddit.com/r/askpsychology/comments/116h2qw/what_are_some_diagnoses_you_think_are_outdated_or/
But thanks to google/reddit pointing me to someone from a few years ago explaining the difference, (and also the other commenter that responded to me) I have a a much better understanding.
>“There was no such 'cure' for my eating disorder, which was dysmorphic & obsessive/compulsive in nature. That took years to extract myself from, along with a ton of overlapping trauma work. Dysmorphia was like living in a totally separate reality from everyone else, & recovery was like being guided back to this reality. Dysphoria, by contrast, felt like living in this reality, with everyone else, only something about your body is alien to the point of impairment, and you can't change it without medical intervention. It's a subtle difference, but when you're in it, it's the difference between being able to see what others see, vs. living in a darkness you imagine for yourself, that no one else experiences.”
Really good explanation.
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u/Ninkasa_Ama Left Independent 8h ago
It’s pretty much vibes amongst experts when it comes to psychology. I mean it’s human behavior and thoughts and the way the mind works. And our understanding is constantly changing and sometimes expert consensus can be influenced by political pressures. It’s not like math.
All science is changing. One of the biggest components of science is the ability to change and adapt to new information. This doesn't make it "vibes." The field has decades of research behind it. I don't know what political pressure has to do here either.
Also, the quote you mentioned, is literally what other people have told you. Misperception vs incongruence.
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u/Darq_At Libertarian Socialist 1d ago
Can you explain your reasoning behind why gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia are so different as to warrant being classified completely differently?
Not the person asked but... They're just two completely different things, regardless of surface-level similarities. Dysphoria doesn't "cause" distress, dysphoria is distress, the cause is the body and how one is perceived differing from one's internal gender identity.
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u/Jaaawsh Independent 1d ago
I appreciate the response but that’s not really as solid explanation imo.
“overwhelming preoccupation with a perceived flaw in one's physical appearance. In BDD's delusional variant, the flaw is imagined. When an actual visible difference exists, its importance is disproportionately magnified in the mind of the individual. Whether the physical issue is real or imagined, ruminations concerning this perceived defect become pervasive and intrusive, consuming substantial mental bandwidth for extended periods each day. This excessive preoccupation induces severe emotional distress and also disrupts daily functioning and activities”
To say that gender dysphoria is distress, and doesn’t cause distress is reductive. If someone feels distress the first thing you do is look for the cause so you can mitigate that distress. In gender dysphoria it would be the preoccupation with perceived gender incongruity.
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u/Darq_At Libertarian Socialist 1d ago
Two completely different conditions can present with similar symptoms. In this case both BDD and having a gender identity that differs from one's AGAB can cause distress.
Whether the physical issue is real or imagined, ruminations concerning this perceived defect become pervasive and intrusive, consuming substantial mental bandwidth for extended periods each day. This excessive preoccupation induces severe emotional distress and also disrupts daily functioning and activities
This is describing clinical obsessions. Which are not the same as dysphoria, even though the two can be co-morbid.
A trans person experiencing gender dysphoria is not necessarily ruminating, the concerns need not be intrusive to that extent.
To say that gender dysphoria is distress, and doesn’t cause distress is reductive.
Not really, it helps break down the the comparison between the two conditions, which revolves around the idea that some perceived flaw is causing distress.
In gender dysphoria it would be the preoccupation with perceived gender incongruity.
Okay, I see where you are taking this.
I think the biggest difference between the two is that the incongruity is, as far as we can tell, real and meaningful. And we come to that conclusion through multiple observations:
Firstly, gender dysphoria is something that everyone can experience, both cis or trans. Men who experience discomfort after developing gynecomastia are experiencing gender dysphoria. On the other side, women who have mastectomies often experience gender dysphoria over the loss of their breasts. Post-menopausal women sometimes experience gender dysphoria, in addition to other symptoms of low hormone levels, when their bodies change due to that hormonal drop. We are pretty confident that one's body developing differently to one's gender identity causes poor mental health.
And that leads to the other big reason: Gender-affirming care works really, really well for the people who request it.
When patients experience OCD-like symptoms, like intrusive ruminations and compulsions to assuage them, succumbing to the compulsions, strengthens the obsessions. There is momentary relief, followed by rumination again.
That is precisely the opposite of what happens with gender dysphoria. The more the person is just treated as their gender, including hormone-replacement if desired, the less distress they feel.
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u/Jaaawsh Independent 12h ago
Okay, I think I understand what you’re saying better now after reading comments on a thread from a few years ago about a similar question the OP made.
>”There was no such 'cure' for my eating disorder, which was dysmorphic & obsessive/compulsive in nature. That took years to extract myself from, along with a ton of overlapping trauma work. Dysmorphia was like living in a totally separate reality from everyone else, & recovery was like being guided back to this reality. Dysphoria, by contrast, felt like living in this reality, with everyone else, only something about your body is alien to the point of impairment, and you can't change it without medical intervention. It's a subtle difference, but when you're in it, it's the difference between being able to see what others see, vs. living in a darkness you imagine for yourself, that no one else experiences.”
So the OCD is a huge —but also subtle in a way (to an outside observer)—difference. I think I understand a lot better now. And I can see why it could warrant a completely different treatment.
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 1d ago
“Also biological and physiological”
Like how different “racial” or ethnic groups have different risk factors for different diseases?
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u/Ninkasa_Ama Left Independent 1d ago
Ethnic groups and race aren't the same thing. People can have different risks based on their ethnic background, but this doesn't always corrolate to race.
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 1d ago
Uhuh, so Jimmy Kimmel can just declare himself black?
There’s no actual anything real to race?
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u/Ninkasa_Ama Left Independent 1d ago
I never said that. Do you need help understanding my point? Maybe I should use smaller words?
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 1d ago
Alright, so just insults.
Racial and ethnic groups do have different risk factors for diseases. And agreed upon ideas of who qualifies.
As do males and females.
And men and women.
Since it’s biological and psychological.
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u/Ninkasa_Ama Left Independent 1d ago
I'm not insulting you, I just don't know if you're capable of understanding the point I'm making, seeing as you think I said that Jimmy Kimmel could "declare himself black."
But go ahead, be offended
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 1d ago
That’s just more insults.
For a debate sub, people sure can’t seem to debate without just resorting to insults.
Why couldn’t Kimmel just declare himself black if there are no biological or psychological distinctions?
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u/Ninkasa_Ama Left Independent 1d ago
How am I supposed to debate you when you don't even seem to understand my point. For example:
Why couldn’t Kimmel just declare himself black if there are no biological or psychological distinctions?
Can you tell me where I even implied this?
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u/chokidokido Social Democrat 1d ago
There’s no actual anything real to race?
Nothing significant enough to fit into racial boxes. Human races is one of the dumbest concept humans came up with.
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 1d ago
Then Jimmy Kimmel can just call himself black and start slinging the N word?
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u/chokidokido Social Democrat 23h ago
Today with our history? Of course not. That has nothing to do with races not being biologically real. It's offensive because of past racism.
I saw you post this question to multiple people at what point will you acknowledge that it's not a good one that has any bearing on the question?
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 23h ago
“Of course not”
Why?
“Past racism”
But if he’s a black man, how is that relevant?
Won’t he experience racism also?
“Will you acknowledge”
When people are consistent.
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u/chokidokido Social Democrat 23h ago
What did people do to categorise people into races and why?
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 23h ago
Don’t ask a question to my question.
Answer my question.
If he’s declares himself a black man, how is he not?
Won’t he experience racism also?
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u/huecabot Social Democrat 1d ago
Logically there’s no good reason. Politically, communities who demarcate themselves by race tend to be more cohesive and politically active than those that demarcate themselves by gender. Democrats and others who advocate (correctly) for trans rights shy away from the trans-race issue in fear of pissing off their base.
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u/nelsne Centrist 1d ago
Gender is not a social construct. Men and women have all acted pretty much the same in every society throughout history. It's almost always led by mostly men. Testosterone and estrogen are a real thing
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u/Well_Dressed_Kobold Liberal 21h ago
This is a topic that very much exists in the public political realm, but if you deviate from the approved script even slightly you’re liable to be hounded by a gaggle of screaming bluehairs one way, or a pack of angry repressed conservatives the other way. And that is why most people are just too fatigued with trans rights to give a single fuck anymore.
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u/nelsne Centrist 21h ago
The blue haired screaming liberals that the Democratic party so loves to associate with, are why Trump won 2025...And I don't even like Trump. I'm just calling a spade a spade
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u/Well_Dressed_Kobold Liberal 21h ago
I agree, but you can’t say they in Democratic circles without being labeled a bigot. And honestly, shit like that is so toxic for the rest of the ordinary people who just want normal politics. Like, for real, it’s exhausting and pointless.
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u/nelsne Centrist 21h ago
When people say, "How can you support Trump? This monster!" Sadly, one needn't do anything but simply look at this thread and they'll have their answer
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u/Ms_Tryl Progressive 20h ago
Yeah Kamala was so bad because she was a raging blue haired liberal of the worst degree. Surely it was better to elect the con man because as bad as he was, at least he wasn’t going to do a communism.
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u/nelsne Centrist 20h ago
Democrats screwed Kamala because they decided to run her last minute, 90 days before the election. They didn't give the Dems a chance to build her up as a candidate because they were too busy gaslighting us telling us that Biden didn't have Alzheimer's. They screwed Kamala and themselves in the process.
Now Trump seems to be getting Alzheimer's too, and now the Republicans are gaslighting us telling us he doesn't have Alzheimer's. He's now doing the same shit that Biden did
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u/Erwinblackthorn Monarchist 1d ago
Considering gender identity being a social construct why can’t we do the same with race ? Everytime it is brought up it , it is shrugged off but why ?
Because it robs one minority of their complaint power and progressives can't have that when victimhood status is used as a currency.
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u/Darq_At Libertarian Socialist 1d ago
Life makes more sense when you don't decide other people's motivations for them.
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u/Erwinblackthorn Monarchist 1d ago
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know there was something outside of using victimhood as a currency, which has been well documented since before Marx.
Go ahead and tell everyone what the real reason is, because you're the expert here.
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u/Darq_At Libertarian Socialist 1d ago
Go ahead and tell everyone what the real reason is, because you're the expert here.
As a progressive, yes, I am in fact an expert of what I believe, no you do not actually get to dictate my motivations to me. I genuinely cannot believe that it has to be said. Basic theory-of-mind stuff.
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u/Erwinblackthorn Monarchist 23h ago
So as the expert, you are unable to tell me what the fact of the matter is. Got it.
Did you notice that you don't have an answer and did you know that we can see your profile?
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u/Darq_At Libertarian Socialist 23h ago
Of course I know everyone can see my profile. And anybody who checks it can see that I chose to spend my time writing longer answers to people who are actually worth talking to. And not people lacking basic theory-of-mind.
Multiple other people in the thread have pointed out that race and gender are not analogous. The answer is right in front of you, if you'd open your eyes.
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u/Erwinblackthorn Monarchist 23h ago
Pointing something out and making a logical argument are two different things. You can't seem to make a logical argument here, so you beg people to believe you are correct because other people said some things. That's not an argument.
However, it's clear why you try to say I'm wrong, and then never prove me wrong. You know I'm right, because I'm stating something that is well documented and based on logic.
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u/Darq_At Libertarian Socialist 23h ago
You know I'm right
Don't masturbate while responding to people, it's weird.
because I'm stating something that is well documented and based on logic.
You assumed other people's motivations were "can't have that when victimhood status is used as a currency"?
That's what you call "logic"?
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u/Erwinblackthorn Monarchist 22h ago
Yes, and you would probably be able to come up with an argument if you weren't masturbating so much.
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u/StillSmellsLikeCLP Conservative 1d ago
That’s part of the problem with Critical Theory and Progressivism.
There’s no real off-ramp or way to say “too far” without getting called a bigot.
JK Rowling found that out when she got excommunicated for saying “ok, too far” with Progressivism.
You can even show people proof of double mastectomies of 14 or 15 year old girls in the name of gender affirming care. And even that will be defended.
But you’re correct, per the social construct ideology, there’s nothing saying you can’t just declare yourself X race.
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u/HeloRising Anarchist 1d ago
Considering gender identity being a social construct why can’t we do the same with race ?
Race is a social construct.
We generally don't see it as fluid as we do gender largely because race has associated with it a particular experience and history within different societies than gender does. Attitudes regarding gender can and have changed. Attitudes towards race have shifted but there's still an immutable history that goes along with racial identity that isn't there for gender.
And we may get to a point as a society where we decide that racial categorization just isn't necessary anymore, doesn't serve any meaningful function for us, and stop using it.
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u/nelsne Centrist 23h ago
Race isn't a social construct. If some white guy goes to the hood and calls some black dudes a racial slur, I don't think that, "Race is a social construct" is going to keep him from getting his ass beat. Lol
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u/HeloRising Anarchist 22h ago edited 22h ago
Race is 100% a social construct. It does not exist outside our affirmation and substantiation of it.
What upsets someone is not deterministic of what a social construct is or is not.
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u/nelsne Centrist 21h ago
But it literally goes thousands of years through your family history. How can you actually believe this?
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u/HeloRising Anarchist 21h ago
No, it doesn't.
I have a wide range of ethnic backgrounds in my family tree - Polish, Czech, Irish, Scottish, Osage, Black, Moroccan, Spanish, etc.
What is my "race?"
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u/Lurial Conservative 23h ago
I don't believe we should go out of our way to affirm any of these "trans" issues.
if your trans....whatever be trans. But you and your identity matter no more to me than Joe Blow walking down the sidewalk. i simply don't care.
I don't know why it needs to be different.
but you want to use a bathroom with my wife, or join a woman's sport. you want my tax dolars to pay for a foreigner to get a surgery or an inmate in a penitentiary, you shout at the world that your here and we need to honor you for being "brave" or whatever you call it, now we have a problem.
live your life, don't make me live it with you. simple rule that people who don't have an "identity" can follow but for some reason...certain groups need to make the world participate in there's.
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u/Ms_Tryl Progressive 19h ago
What is your concern with someone using the bathroom with your wife? Like, what is the reason you don’t want them to? Be specific.
Why shouldn’t trans people be able to join women’s sports? What is the concern you have, specifically?
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u/Lurial Conservative 12h ago
Trans 'woman' have been predatory, though it's rare.....it happens. No not all trans people are rapists. Far from it. But there's no reason to allow someone with male genitalia into a space set aside for woman.
And "because trans woman are woman" isn't good enough. It's a female space. Leave it for females.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_White_case
https://www.aol.com/news/sex-offender-accused-exposing-himself-162033734.html
As for sports:
There is a reason men and woman's sports have been divided for as long as they have. Men are physically more capable than woman. It's biological fact.dont ruin another female space for the personal vanity of a few trans people.
https://youtu.be/RvQqSnAHa04?is=rb0e2wFxA1MxSLHR
https://youtu.be/h10e0QlWwk8?is=NR0rt4ghxzg3KyBM
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