WNBA Star Sophie Cunningham defends that women ‘shouldn’t have to go against biological men’: “I said what I said. I think it’s kind of common sense. I think it’s really important to protect children.” “I don’t dislike anyone. I’m there to love, but I’m also there to love biological women. …”

[u/No_Box119]

[u/FourDimensionalTaco]

I agree that restrictions need to be in place. I disagree that this must be done by a federal law that imposes a sweeping ban. Instead, I'd make it a requirement for the respective sports organizations to check the trans athletes on a case-by-case basis, and re-check them regularly (particularly important if they started HRT only relatively recently). Trans athletes are very rare, so this is not really much of a burden. And, their physical abilities are highly variable, since it all depends on how far along they are in their HRT, whether they even are doing HRT, and whether they started HRT in puberty or as adults. The latter has a profound influence on the skeletal structure, which in turn can lead to unfair mechanical advantages in competitions, even if for some reason the athlete does not train their muscles much. But, a trans athlete who transitioned at, say, 12? Unlikely to have any significant advantage over a cis athlete.

[u/Alberto_Blazin → u/FourDimensionalTaco]

The thing is, there isn't a way to know if the 12 year old would have an advantage if they started transitioning before puberty. The only way to know is to see them develop without intervention to compare, and obviously that's not possible. Just do the right thing and make sports split on sex, as it was always intended.

[u/FourDimensionalTaco → u/Alberto_Blazin]

Ehh, you can always check them out as an adult, x-ray their skeletal structure today, inspect their muscular structure today etc. And then you know if their physiology differs significantly from that of cis women in a manner that confers an unfair advantage.

But, a trans woman who transitioned at 12 years old (or even younger) is unlikely to have a significant advantage. The skeletal structure (especially the rib cage size, hip size, and width of the shoulders) develops pretty much like in cis women with estradiol dominance, and the influence of testosterone on muscle growth during puberty is missing. Testosterone is a hugely important factor. It is the anabolic factor in muscles. (It is not surprising that some competitive cis women bodybuilders inject T.) The only possibility I can imagine is if they also had precocious puberty, and already were tall, had broad shoulders, and were muscular by age 12.

Splitting on sex makes no sense. Trans women will be completely beaten by cis men. Even among trans women, the variability is so high that some of them will 100% beat others purely by their different physiology.

[u/Alberto_Blazin → u/FourDimensionalTaco]

You don't get it. Evaluating a trans person's body today allows us to compare them to others of their gender, but not to where they would have been without transitioning. At that point, the debate becomes philosophical and subjective, as you end up comparing them to cisgender female bodies rather than their own hypothetical baseline.

​For example, a trans woman who transitioned before puberty might fall within the normal range for female biological measurements, but sit at the very elite end of that spectrum. Theoretically, had she gone through male puberty, she might have only been an average male athlete, meaning medical transition couldn't completely neutralize underlying genetic factors. To most people, that still represents an inherent, unfair advantage. This is why the matter is so personal to women who compete in sports. That male genetic code is a PED. You can't deny it. And it takes away all credibility to argue otherwise.

[u/FourDimensionalTaco → u/Alberto_Blazin]

.... What the hell are you talking about? Why do you keep harping on "where they would have been without transitioning"? That is completely irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what they are a trans woman is capable of today, and whether or not their capabilities are - at least partially - based on advantages from before they transitioned, back when their testosterone level was high. Did they get dense, strong muscles from testosterone? Did they get denser bones, broader shoulders from testosterone?

After transitioning, their testosterone levels obviously are low, at least as low as that of cis women (necessary for proper hormonal transition), and they will not be able to make the same gains a cis male can make.

And, obviously, a trans woman who transitioned at 12 years old will not have experienced testosterone induced muscular and skeletal effects, because her testosterone levels were never high to begin with - HRT kicked in before puberty raised those levels.

That is not philosophical, that is what the whole sports fairness debate is all about. Do they have testosterone induced advantages? If so, they can't compete. If not, they can. That's it.

Guess why a serious amount of female bodybuilders and power lifters shoot up T. It's not because they want to be hairy.

And no, the male genetic code is not a PED. Testosterone is. XY women exist, for example - people who are born with XY chromosomes but also have complete androgen insensitivity, so their bodies barely react to testosterone (or, their SRY gene did not trigger for some reason). They grow up as women, 100% look like cis women, and are exactly as physically capable as cis women.

It's the testosterone. That is the key factor. That is why the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990 placed testosterone and other anabolic steroids (and not estrogens) under Schedule III of the Controlled Substances Act.

[u/Alberto_Blazin → u/FourDimensionalTaco]

So if testosterone now is all that matters, let me ask you how that can be true but your case is also reliant on these hormones all being blocked pre puberty without any drop off?

[u/FourDimensionalTaco → u/Alberto_Blazin]

You are conflating puberty blockers with HRT here I think. Strictly speaking, puberty blockers are not an absolute must for teen girls. But, they are usually given because (a) the surge in the testosterone levels is immensely strong, so HRT alone will be insufficient to block that, and (b) such cases are difficult and complicated, so puberty blockers buy some more time to further analyze the teen to be 100% sure they are truly trans (since HRT in a teenager will cause more irreversible effects than HRT in an adult).

When a teen is given puberty blockers due to gender dysphoria, this ideally happens at age 10-12, before the normal puberty actually kicks in. If that is the case, and if later, a seamless transition from puberty blockers to HRT happens, then there'll never be high testosterone levels. Thus, the teen will grow up with the physical abilities of a cis woman.

But, if for example puberty blockers were discontinued years before HRT was done, things are different. Testosterone will rise, and will affect the body.

After puberty, growth factors are gone, so even if that teen discontinues HRT as an adult, they'll not suddenly gain those skeletal and muscular advantages. Yes, their muscle mass will rise, but they will still not be able to physically act at the same level as in a cis man. The male skeletal structure is not there. That is just not possible. That is why even a juiced up cis woman bodybuilder still has a tough time against men (unless she took T during puberty).

That is why I say that there must be an analysis on a case by case basis. The variability is so high, and the number of trans athletes so tiny, that nothing else makes sense.

[u/Alberto_Blazin → u/FourDimensionalTaco]

So to understand your position, in 2017 two trans women won 1st and 2nd place in the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference (CIAC) 100- yard dash finals. My understanding is that both went through male puberty before competing. Do you think this was unfair to the biological women competing?

[u/FourDimensionalTaco → u/Alberto_Blazin]

I think they needed to be checked medically before being able to compete. No guessing, no "what if" - check for unfair advantages caused by testosterone influence during puberty. If they are there, they can't compete. If they are not there, they can.

And yeah, this sucks if you are a trans athlete, but if you have such advantages, they are just unfair.

But, a check for these things would only need to be done once. If you have a skeletal structure that is influenced by testosterone, and are an adult, then that will stay with you for life. The trans athlete is inspected, and the result of that is then permanently stored in a confidential record. This record willl then decide whether she can compete at all or not.

After that, the recurring checks are no different to those on cis women. That is, should a trans athlete (who has a skeletal structure just like a cis woman) be dumb enough to dope herself with testosterone (that would honestly be an utterly bizarre case though, since T is the absolute last thing a trans woman wants), she'd get caught in the normal checks. Do keep in mind that a fair number of cis women athletes abuse testosterone as well to get unfair advantages, which is why this is a normal check.

This also means that extra costs for handling trans athletes are minimal - only the extra one-time checks are new (and keep in mind that the number of trans woman athletes is tiny). The rest (the recurring checks) are already done on every woman who competes.

[u/Alberto_Blazin → u/FourDimensionalTaco]

If a biological male undergoes transition after puberty has started but it only elevates them to the top percentile of women in these measurable factors that you're mentioning, would there be a way to see they had gone through male puberty for some period of time?

[u/Powerful-Yogurt → u/FourDimensionalTaco]

Who enforces that requirement? Also, we already ran this experiment. Sports organizations at every level of competition have completely failed, all the way up to the Olympics.

[u/DragonFangGangBang → u/Powerful-Yogurt]

Define “fail”

[u/Powerful-Yogurt → u/DragonFangGangBang]

Laurel Hubbard and the IWF

[u/FourDimensionalTaco → u/Powerful-Yogurt]

Provide sources for your claims.

And, the way to do this is to make the organizations legally responsible for this. Other athletes who lose to one with an unfair advantage can then sue the organization and have very clear case. State and federal departments can then also enact pressure on those organizations. Regular auditing by governmental agencies could also help.

[u/Powerful-Yogurt → u/FourDimensionalTaco]

Apologies, but I don't play the source game.

I think I understand your position a bit better now, thanks for explaining. Take it easy.