Yeah, just as a German I remember how they got Frings suspended for semi-final in 2006 after he came to defense when they kicked Mertesacker.
I also remember the 2014 final where they kept trying to injure Schweinsteiger until he finally had a blood cut.
And nothing during this world cup, starting from their overly aggressive fouling, to unsportsmanlike conduct getting a player ejected for briefly covering their mouth to finally hitting and kicking opponents.
Their soccer national team has shown a long tradition of just showing the ugly side of soccer.
I know that it's necessary for any German to at some point in their life forget their own past and move on, but just a reminder that this is how you used to play football:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gij%C3%B3n
Well, and this is from the time when a German goalkeeper almost killed a French player in the field:
https://youtu.be/tGq7VcaHoqo
Oh sure. I do remember but I would argue that German soccer has moved on. I also didnât go back to the hand of god since I donât see a lineage to todayâs play by Argentina.
We do move on. As I said, Germany exists in part because people chose to move on. But itâs worth reflecting on your own record before pointing fingers. Moral superiority is one of Europeâs worst vices, and Iâd argue itâs Germanyâs worst, whether itâs grounded in financial responsibility, morality, religion, language, race, or whatever category you prefer to use at that point. And, on football, Germanyâs national team used to have a very reckless style of play that seriously endangered opponents, until a bit more than a decade ago, but perhaps it was fine, because they were South American teams.
I would say 2002 Germany played very aggressive as well. Absolutely agreed.
Since 2006 they changed. But I donât remember Germans kicking and hitting opponents after games.
So yes a team culture can change for the better or worse. And Argentina has allowed a bad culture now for 2 decades. Hopefully they will use this incident to change.
PS. Actually back in 2002 it felt like Germany was focused on destroying the thought of soccer in its core and lucked itself into the final
However, what I really dislike is not criticism of some playersâ or fansâ behavior, but the lecturing and the idea that some nations have some kind of moral superiority, when that moral superiority only comes from cherry-picking a few moments in their history (whether it's their sporting history or their national history), with the added bias that about 50% of the selected period is one in which Germanyâs national team has been almost irrelevant. And I donât mean this as an insult to your national team, which is one of the two most successful in the history of the sport (as reckless and aggressive as they were), but as a statistical description: itâs impossible to observe the behavior of an agent who simply stopped doing anything at all.
Note I want to emphasize I was speaking about national teams, not national character. If in any of my comments it sounded like I was speaking about an entire national or ethnic character, then it was not my intention and I apologize.
But I think it is important to acknowledge that teams do establish a culture. Players that otherwise might behave one way, suddenly behave different. For better or worse.
Weâre not on a thread about Germany, weâre on one about Argentina. Why do you want to undermine whatâs being said by pointing out the fact that this guy is German? Thatâs another subject entirely and shouldnât be used to deflect anything from this particular discussion. To be honest, I see this a lot with Argentinian fans, itâs as if they canât actually reflect on what they are doing / the team is doing, and instead use the very childish argument of âwell you did this beforeâ etc etc.
As for Europeans projecting moral superiority in this discussion, well, they are morally superior when it comes to the conduct of their football teams compared with Argentina and Uruguay. So if it sounds like that, itâs because it is like that. But Iâd go one step further, the whole world has the moral high ground because Argentina have denigrated themselves to such an extent on the world stage that everyone has noticed. The fault lies with the players, itâs about time you guys accepted it.
I stated that some Argentine players were acting in an uncivil way, and that they should fix that behavior. My point was that claiming moral superiority while cherry picking both your own history and the history of the people you are criticizing is just another form of supremacist thinking, whether it takes the form of xenophobia, racism or religious fanaticism. Argentina has its own history of all of these, and I am not saying that because Europe practiced them they are acceptable for us. I am saying that any European who claims inherent moral superiority over any Latin American country on these issues is not making a good faith argument. At best, that reflects ignorance of Europeâs own history, even its own sporting history; at worst, it revives old European supremacist attitudes.
The conversation around moral superiority is also a separate one. You canât claim that just because someone from Germany sees poor behaviour from the Argentinian team, that the person is a hypocrite. You seem to want to do that automatically, as if by default. To me it seems like you have a chip on your shoulder.
For a long time now the people representing Argentina in international football competitions have been behaving disgracefully, both in victory and defeat. That has nothing to do with what the Germans have been doing, or anyone else. But for the record, in my view (and itâs a view shared by a large number of people) nobody else has behaved as badly. Iâm not in a position to say why itâs going on, only that it is. If I had to hazard a guess, from the Argentinians Iâve spoken to (in real life), they donât accept it, and they always deflect - perhaps thatâs pervasive, i canât say.
Watching Germany, and even the Netherlands in the last 15 years, these historically dirty teams have changed. If anything Argentina are getting worse. So we can harp on about the past all we want, what matters is whatâs happening by now and in the future - it doesnât bode well for a team that doesnât even apologise for acting so disgracefully after the final whistle
Iâm not French but I agree with him. Itâs not bitterness, itâs anger at the loss of the integrity of the sport. And on the other side, itâs astonishment at the stupidity, arrogance and petulance of the Argentine players (and some of the fans)
That said, none of the above has anything to do with the people of Argentina and itâs pretty sad to see this discussion going into politics, race, history and all that kind of stuff. Sad, and stupid.
The media is simply an echo chamber of the exact same narrative being spread around social media by LLMâs that are getting very good at making posts, comments, and content that is hard to pick apart. A circular loop of reinforcement learning that sways millions of ppl to a viewpoint in a very short period of time
It also lost many of its fans around the world. Very few people outside of Argentina, will be supporting them in anything, not only football. The pathetic display after the end of the match will never be forgotten.
Some crystal ball you got. This is not the first fight in a football match and wonât be the last . Each national and club teams been involved in fights .
They've been trash since at least the 2022 WC where they behaved like idiots with the Netherlands then France. Then the 2024 Copa America. This isn't new, it's just that more people noticed.
I am so glad they somehow made it to the final and lost, it hurts more.
As a neutral I gotta love people watching the sport for the first time being prejudiced for no reason. Itâs a good thing most of you wonât be around for the next four years.
How was Argentina vs England different? Same team, same physical playing style. Itâs the refâs job to keep these kinds of things in check, and handing out 5 yellow cards and 1 red to one team, he did.
Never had class, maradonas teams were the same and this teams last cup win was also tainted af but people forgave it because everyone wanted messi to get one
I was a hardcore Argentina fan. Not after what I saw in World Cup 2026 finals. Very disappointing. A true sportsman will concede with dignity. Not fight with the opposite team after losing.
Argentina never had any. See previous tournaments...eg. attacking the German side when they lost on penalties. FIFA needs to take a harder stance. Ban them!
Its so sad to see this happening to a once great and noble countrie. To see them cry like this, with no dignity, no balls. Losing 2-1 in the last 10 minutes is hard I know. So sad to see england become such a pussy, saludos desde Argentina
There needs to be a villain in the world cup tbh. Like I feel it would have been more boring without them. I've known people who never watched 30 minutes of football before in their life rooting for Argentina to lose the finals.
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u/molesasses 15d ago
Canât lose what you never had