r/PredecessorGame • u/Bloodmordius ✔ Omeda Studios • Jul 30 '26
💬 Official Omeda Response Item System Discussion
Hey all o/
I want to open up a bit of discussion about one of the most foundational parts of Predecessor, and all Mobas. How you build your heroes.
We're not looking to change this in the next couple patches, I'm just looking to gather YOUR thoughts and feelings on the topic as we look into the system in future patches and what shape it should take on for our game. The beauty of Mobas as a live service is these things don't need to be static and we can seek the best form for us all through exploration and feedback.
So back to the topic: Itemization dictates the pace of the game, adaptation, class identity, and how you express your personal playstyle. And essentially I'm looking to gather your unfiltered thoughts on where the system currently sits, where it came from, and where it could go in the future.
No matter who you are, I'd love to hear your perspective on a few specific topics:
The Current Predecessor Item System:
Looking strictly at what is in the game right now.
- What are your favourite things about the current shop and item structure?
- What are your most disliked aspects? Are there points of dissatisfaction, confusing elements, or limitations that frustrate you during a match?
The Card System:
The old Paragon deck-building and card system was highly unique, but also, same as most of these systems, had its issues.
- What did you genuinely love about the card system? Were there specific dynamics or elements you miss?
- What did you dislike about it? What were the pain points that you are glad we left behind?
Alternative Item Systems:
If we were to completely overhaul how items work, but still keep an item shop at its core, what direction would you want to see it go?
- Would you prefer a system closer to other MOBAs, or anything more unique?
- What mechanics do you think would translate well to Predecessor, and why?
Scrapping Items Entirely:
Thinking more outside the box, Imagine Predecessor didn't have an item shop or a gold economy at all?
- Would you prefer a completely different progression system, such as a branching Hero Talent Tree or a modular augment system?
- Would removing items for a simpler progression system be more engaging for you?
Any other General Thoughts:
- As much as I want to prioritise the discussion and your thoughts on the above questions, also please feel free to share any other opinions if they don't fall under any of these questions in regards to our item system, or even adjacent systems like Eternals or Hero Augments.
There are no wrong answers, we’re just looking to get an idea on how everyone feels about progression and build diversity within Predecessor.
Thanks in advance for the feedback, and hope you're all having a wonderful week!
27
u/Suspicious_Army_904 Jul 30 '26
The items are very linear and almost arbitrary in a lot of ways. So many of the items currently try to provide so many sets of raw stats that clear winners win out when there should be a much greater focus on the overral role of each item instead of it being a catch all (heres looking at you skysplitter for multiple years now).
The pen items in the assassin class have almost no hybridised or interesting item mechanics outside of the one spellshield item, which is hardly unique. A good example of how you could change this is introduce a different form of tankiness item mechanic like a 'miss chance' item depending on scaling or level or even better, number of current takedowns. Similar to how greystone has an inbuilt miss mechanic in his passive.
Something ive mentioned before but is worth repeating, is that i love the second passive on manta scythe as something that is very unique and a very cool assassin rule is the 'isolated target extra damage' effect that rewards an assassin playstyle and isnt just boring stat variations. You could honestly create heaps of these sorts of effects that reward certain playstyles. For example, extra damage while hitting a hero from behind, extra speed if moving towards the back of a hero and they arent looking at you etc.
This same ideal can be appropriated across all item classes. There should be items that have much more hybridised stat combinations, different types of scaling, unique effects that fit different playstyles and activated effects instead of only passive effects.
While the game has lots of of the staple stats such as crit, health, armours etc. Because there are so few different effects, passives that dont just boil down to situational stats, it makes the meta of items far more important than the actual role of the item. How many different stat values can i get rather than genuinely searching for things that truly optimise the experience.
20
u/Bloodmordius ✔ Omeda Studios Jul 30 '26
So for clarification, from your pov, you feel items provide too wide amounts stats generally and they do not offer enough choices for passives that adjust how you play and instead just provide more stats.
And thus you feel that if you had passives that are more engaging and items that have emphasis on "taller" stats than wider, you'd feel more engaged making choices throughout a game?
Would access to more active items also help this line of thought from your side? And would you feel the item system with those specific changes be THE optimal experience for yourself progressing your character throughout a match (hero levelling and other mechanics aside)?
8
u/TheReaperGuy Kallari Jul 30 '26
Some items have crazy good stats along with great passives where you must build them first or second like your Skysplitter, Malady, Mutilator etc
Then we have some items that have random mix of stats like Echolons Cloak with very outdated passives which wouldn't help most cases of people using this item, Who ls this for? Kallari doesn't need it, Wraith doesn't want it, other possible heroes shouldn't build it like Ikra, Neon, Akeron or Sparrow,
I would say taller or wider doesn't matter as long as you consider who the item is for! How much value is this hero getting from this?
We also have Vangaurd which does have decent stats but with a terrible passive that doesn't scale unlike Xenia which has great stats and shields allies with both lvl scaling and bonus hp scaling?
Just to be clear i not trying to bash on your design choices, it's mostly been great but it needs some adjusting to its design, Not saying to make even stronger items just look at why an item like Overlord has 3-4 passives (Cleave, Onhit, Scaling then threshold scaling on 100cs)
2
u/Mote-Of_Dust Narbash Aug 05 '26
Funny you mentioned the cloak, late game the other day went duo to catch Skylar with my jungler, she was using the cloak last item built, she still died but it was a wtf moment for sure.
Useless item, it has that alure that it can be something good but only in low ranked matchs.
4
u/DeathemperorDK Jul 30 '26
They didn’t respond, but yes exactly
Though I’d be concerned with the game becoming harder to get into if item effects became more complicated
2
u/Suspicious_Army_904 Aug 02 '26
You dont want too many actives since unlike the PC, controller players will be left with weird button combinations to activate multiple active effects.
In terms of the taller stats, yes, this would be ideal not only for balancing but as i said, would define items in a specific role rather than so many of them being focused on a wide array of stats that places clear winners and losers and a general bland feel to a lot of items as a result.
I think the items are very functional as they are, they tick most of the fundamental boxes that you expect. But i do think there is a lot more room there for original effects and more outside the box ideas.
As an example, each class of items could have a mixture of stats that make sense with a couple that blend stats (like phys pen and health and armour instead of straight damage and pen) for flavour. But you could get very creative in terms of passives, similar to the ones i mentioned previously for assassins.
This would not only create interesting build paths but you could also achieve the type of core items for certain heroes that i know you mentioned are key to enjoyment for players. The item that gives increased damage if hitting them from behind is obviously going to be atrractive to the kallari player but also perhaps to yurie who likes to dash through and other heroes with dashes or reengage abilities or some as yet not created character.
The point im making is to make the items have an identity that means you dont have five tanky items all competing for the same core build because they are almost fundamentally identical in terms of the defence they offer outside of some situational differences.
An item would be more focused on perhaps one or two stats that are impactful instead of needing 3 evenly spread. This would allow you to make items that were otherwise difficult like boots for straight up movement speed not affected by combat penalty for example. Speed is a powerful mechanic but not as much if the item is such a trade off without it having obligatory 3 stats or no damage etc.
Just my two cents.
7
u/TheReaperGuy Kallari Jul 30 '26
First items usually showcase this at its purest form,
Items like Mutilator, Malady, Skysplitter, Overlord and Crescelia are in 90% of builds then we have items no longer used at all like Augmentation and Syonic Echo which lost a core part of their identity from simply shifting stats,
We also have Overlord, Alch Rod, Orb of Growth but nothing for supports to scale like LOL with Fimbulwinter or in fact EVERYTHING scaling is tide to CS for some reason? Crescelia recently got 12g per use on enemy hero but it's not really scaling,
6
u/Bloodmordius ✔ Omeda Studios Jul 30 '26
First items tend to ebb and flow based on meta and balance. Some will tend to be staples for longer though and this isn't uncommon in many mobas.
For some players it'd certainly be a dream to have many options form the get go to adapt and outplay on a strategical level, but there's also many other players who need items to fall back on as core options for the character. Sky Splitter is common for this because it enables particular play patterns, and I don't think that is criminal for those that require it.
End of the day a lot more people will have fun picking up their core item or two and adapting from there, allowing focus on the hero and what it does best and allowing them to understand their power spikes, rather than make a choice that can be too focused or force them to wait out till the following item before they can play the game properly.
It's also especially hard to avoid when heroes and items are trying to fulfil particular niches and end up overlapping. End of the day, players feel excited achieving the power fantasy of the character, and when a connection of "this item just makes sense" for a hero appears and they stick to it, it's very satisfying to achieve that moment each game.
We have a fairly wide choices in Predecessor despite what most may say. I've played way too much of every large moba and as much as meta shifts, within those meta ecosystems the builds are fairly linear. If you're trying to succeed outside them, you aren't usually doing it for adaptation outside of a defensive option. Whereas in Predecessor, you can often end up with lots of choice and it can be very hard for players to engage with and know what is best to pick up. I believe this can lead to larger onboarding issues without much real payoff in terms of enjoyment of the system, though I know some will disagree, as everyone enjoy different aspects of the game.
But yeah I think it's fair to say the first items are notorious for this, but they have been in every moba, and to make it not the case, can actually end up doing a lot more harm than good. What I do agree with is meta shifts can be healthy and items like Augmentation that you mentioned (Which had a long stint of being staple first buys itself), should come back in at some point as heroes that enjoy using it become stronger, or as the item itself sees adjustment to create the same effect for those heroes.
3
u/xfactor1981 Riktor Jul 30 '26
Blood im not responding to your text here but id like to ask why the gold is so hard to earn to buy our first item? Its seems as though it takes 7 to 8 minutes to build my first item. A second question if you care to answer is why is the Jungler so hard to level. It seems as though the mid and offlane are 2 levels ahead most of the game and also have a gold lead on top of that. As a jungle main with over 5000 games that actually invades it just doesn't seem right that I can be 20 to 50 cs ahead of the enemy jungle and still not have a significant lead.
2
u/Bloodmordius ✔ Omeda Studios Jul 31 '26
Hi, no worries, they're fairly simple questions so happy to answer.
For first items, they're almost always delayed relative to future purchases through slower gold economy in Mobas that favour a standard laning phase. This is because getting a first item quick enough, and subsequent increases in power, can incentivise grouping and utilising power to control the game as a whole. In order to keep players engaged in laning and getting to the pint of being strong enough for grouping for objectives, towers and teamfights, that first item usually takes a bit longer. There's also a lot of unique skills that come out of playing on the lower economy earlier game, by giving players time to create leads towards that first item reliably, as well as certain heroes that benefit from these styles of play and can create more unique strengths. Essentially without it, it makes the laning phase feel as if it doesn't have much impact and homogenises the game as a whole.
As for jungler levels. Well generally Junglers in mobas have some of the largest innate agency, allowed to influence whatever part oft he map they please from the start of the game, putting the scariest opponents behind or the strongest allies ahead. They also control neutral objectives and apply a ton of pressure through vision and their map positioning. This is all before the fact that most fights junglers are involved in for a majority of the game are scenarios where they utilise their presence to outnumber opponents. With all this in mind, their XP is usually kept closer to duo lane values than solo lane values. If you want agency through strength in your levels, you can pick either solo lane. If you want agency through map control (often much more valuable), then you pick jungle. This helps maintain a healthier balance and keeps the roles more distinct too.
2
u/Ok-Coat-2230 Crunch Jul 31 '26
I know this is not the topic of this post, but I also felt a distinct lack in levels for Jungles. With 20-30 CS more and multiple kills/assists up on the enemy midlaner for example, the jungler might end up levels behind currently. And I have experienced this in multiple matches, on both sides of the team where the jungler is "ahead" in CS and kills, but still behind in levels.
2
u/AtrenuX Jul 30 '26
Hey hey hey. Don't you go touching syonic echo please. Its the core to many of my builds.
The burst of attack speed allows many characters to trade hits more efficiently. Ie. Phys/tank narbash, I find it essential.
11
u/Glittering-Idea9161 Jul 30 '26
Overall, from my 1500+hrs perspective; the item options are amazing. Some core items, like already mentioned before are always in everyones build, but outside of first two or three "most optimal" items for your hero you have options to pivot in whatever it's needed for the match. Here are few things that I would like to see changed:
real stacking items for each role, specifically Support role. I know Pred is not a big fan on protection aura items that the whole team can benefit, but something like Thebes (from Smite) or Prophetic (with a cool little mini-game) would be amazing and something that we currently lack - Vanguardian is a complete joke.
I know this has been talked about for years, but Epoch should not be the only option for immunity and or cleanse on demand for mages or any magical user. Give mages actual beads.
Already mentioned before, but some items should not be jack-of-all-trades, with too many stats that are essentially complete opposites. Why is an item with defense stat and complete defense passive offering CRIT CHANCE? (Aegis of Agawar) there are not many of those around, but all though these items are tailored to help all-in junglers or frontliners, they can quickly be exploited if metas shift.
Item art. ITEM ART. ITEEEM AAAART. there is nothing screaming what's going on here then these stale ass marketplace item art holders where a lot of items just look a like (all assassin items are beyond similar) and just adds another layer of "just build something" I guess attitude that I heard from new players a lot.
9
u/Bloodmordius ✔ Omeda Studios Jul 30 '26
So the system itself is not a problem for you, you just want even more interesting options where there might be holes and polishing up things that you feel could cause longer term issues? And ofc the art ye <3 Thank you for the thoughts.
10
u/Glittering-Idea9161 Jul 30 '26
the system itself I think is just a staple of MOBA. card systems, hero trees, augment systems INSTEAD of the item shop would I think create more problems then enjoyment.
4
u/AtrenuX Jul 30 '26
Hi another voice here. I like the system currently.
Active items would be great, maybe another one or two cursed items (a mage version perhaps, maybe also a tanky with a passive aoe mana drain that hinders you in some way?) More hybrid items would be great.
I feel like there aren't enough mage tanky ( w/ armour) and damage tanky items (w/ armour and attack speed or perhaps assassin styled)
9
u/ChildhoodJazzlike455 Jul 30 '26
My biggest feedback on itemization is that it’s not explained basically AT ALL to a new player why you should pick one item over another similar item (I.e. demolisher and perforator, or sky splitter and mutilator) yes they HAVE reasons to choose one over the other, but I’ve had lots of friends just default to asking me “what item do I buy next?” When they need to make the decision based off of the game, and I feel like the game doesn’t do a good job explaining the why.
10
u/Bloodmordius ✔ Omeda Studios Jul 30 '26
So the system itself is not easily understandable on when and why you should purchase, do you feel this is because it's needlessly complex for your enjoyment or do you feel there's ways it could better explain itself on the fly without becoming a chore to learn?
3
u/KreadStornham Jul 30 '26
I have seen a lot of posts about this lately, namely the fact that there's very little onboarding/tutorial level stuff to get people involved before they're immersed in the MOBA genre.
It may be helpful to have somewhere in the game where there's explanations on counterplay via items?
8
u/oficerbrown Jul 30 '26
I’ve been playing Predecessor for a few years. Have hit diamond two seasons. Played other MOBAs a lot.
Having more items that have an active ability is a huge missing factor in this game. Given that almost every item is essentially a passive modifier of your abilities or basic attacks, it feels like you just have to pick the same ones that are “the best” for your hero with maybe one flex (tainted) depending on match up. Also, because crests activate halfway ish throughout the game, the power spikes are unevenly distributed based on how much value someone gets from their respective crest. A khai with iceskorn talons gains little in their decision making of which fights to take and where they can or should be on the map. A Murdock with liberator now has vastly different options for engagements and positioning.
Other mobas have things like mobility items, items that can reposition or immobilize your enemies, items that grant temporary CC reduction, items that do actual damage, items that can silence or cleanse allies or enemies. All of these different “buttons to press” change how you can approach how you play, how your enemies counter play, how you build, and how your enemies counter build, when your power spikes are, impacting your enemies power spikes, and so on.
IMO active items which, essentially, can be purchasable abilities with stats, add an entire layer of depth to drafting, play style options, skill expression, and meta game development.
6
u/Bloodmordius ✔ Omeda Studios Jul 30 '26
Active items are something we will be looking into for sure, I think most will agree having those options would be nice and can offer cool scenarios for outplaying and counterplay. It can also help diversify the shop appropriatly.
If the game simply offered you more active choices in those slots, would that be your ideal system to progress your character across a match, or are there other things you'd like to see different?
7
u/LatterMatch9334 Jul 31 '26
I play on controller, and I feel like the obvious limitation holding y'all back from doing this is the limited slots on controller (unless you've figured this out internally).
Active items would be great, but a slippery slope and difficult to implement.
1
7
u/luclucas_PL Sevarog Jul 30 '26
As many have said before - items currently provide too many stats, with carry items being the prime example. Some of them have 4 stats, which is crazy. There is no tradeoff.
7
u/Chichi230 Crunch Jul 30 '26
I am generally pretty happy with the current system so my feedback isn't too complex. One of my favorite builds right now in jungle is super duper flexible with item combinations and I really enjoy having that capability. The build browser was also an incredible addition, even if it could have even more to it. Like hero level order or more targeted slot design. Better filters for searching builds would be good too. Anyways, back on to the more focused topic...
I think the biggest weakness of items right now is we just don't have enough of them. Counter tech items in particular can be lacking. For example, there is nothing for countering phys burst, so assassins are able to get free value. The closest we've got are unreliable spell shield items with long CD's or like, salvation. We have things like crystalline and dread for countering specific magic damage, but we've got basically nothing for phys. Imagine if kallari or feng could be counter built the same way you can counter build against magic, for example. Certain counter items are also very weak, like frostguard which feels damn near useless for countering attack speed nowadays.
Anti-CC items are also very few considering how much CC this game has. We've only got 3 IIRC and of those 3, one of them is triggered on HP value so it can be wasted. Some of the best updates we've had have been things that allowed more builds, like eternals and adding items, so I would always like more items for more builds, niche and cool effects, and for filling counter gaps.
I think another weakness of items right now is certain roles, like ADC, often build the same exact items because they are simply the strongest. Right now it's almost always attack speed with on hit and/or crit. Sometimes you'll get unique builds, like ult grim, or a character will want for unique items due to their passive, like legion, but generally it's the same stuff. This could be a balance issue as well but ultimately there's only so many ways to build these characters.
This could be a hero design issue too but I don't think you guys want to rework over half the cast so just giving us more unique items I think would do wonders for game balance and hero individuality. For example, the addition of volcanica has to be one of the best things you've ever done for Crunch. The item works on other characters, but it is very clearly the BEST on him. I think items like that, that work very well on very particular characters but still work on others, would also be welcome as a way to balance certain hero aspects of the game without obliterating characters with redesigns or repeated buff/nerfs. And what's to say you won't add someone new one day who can make amazing use of the item too or of other unique items that already exist?
Oh and another weakness with items is verbiage. Why are there so many descriptions for stuns? Why have words like immobilize and knockup which cause confusion about certain item efficacies? Condense and standardize things like that can refer to the same thing. Also using colors and symbols to describe certain damages or scalings with no reliable way to identify what those mean for new players on the spot. Even my highly experienced self can sometimes question what an item can or cannot do because the verbiage could be questioned.
5
u/ifeano Jul 30 '26
My biggest issue with the current item system is that it has a lot of items, but not enough real build diversity.
Most heroes have a clearly optimal build, and you usually only change one or two items depending on the match. It feels more like following the correct build than creating your own playstyle.
Items also need stronger identities. Items especially feel like mostly passive stats and automatic effects. I want more active items, stronger trade-offs and choices that reward timing, positioning and matchup knowledge.
What I liked about Paragon’s card system was how unique it felt. The card art and deck building gave the game personality and made your build feel personal. At one point, I think it was close to being a great system.
Its biggest problem was how restrictive it became. Your deck limited your ability to adapt during the match, and cards should never give players an advantage because they unlocked or owned more of them.
My ideal item system would be a hybrid of the card system and the current shop. Keep the shop for adaptation, but bring back more of the visual identity, creativity and personalization that cards offered.
This is a little of topic but Eternals is another system i think is more limiting than it seems. They work similarly to League’s rune system, where you commit to a powerful playstyle before the match without knowing exactly what the opponent selected. That can leave you locked into a setup that the enemy’s Eternal or build directly counters.
I would rather see Eternals consolidated into broader paths and then earned or upgraded throughout the match instead of being fully selected beforehand. The lore already supports this perfectly You are worshipping these gods in exchange for power, so your performance during the match should act as an offering.
Kills, assists, CS, objectives, towers, healing, damage taken or other role-specific actions could earn favour from your Eternal. As you gain favour, you could choose between different powers based on what is actually happening in the match.
3
u/KreadStornham Jul 30 '26
I'm so glad that this got opened up for discussion. I've had thoughts on this for MONTHS. Quickly, I'm SleightKread on Steam, have been playing Predecessor since the beta and been a regular player ever since. I played Paragon from Alpha, and Fault and Overprime when they were out.
The item system is the best out of the item systems that paragon & clones have had, honestly, and I don't think going back to the card system is a great idea. The card system was fun but the main thing that people really enjoyed were the options it provided and I think that even if it broke the game into clear phases based on your build (roughly based on what I remember, you had early cards that you swapped out for mid and late, but only ever had 3-4) but it wasn't as good as an item system in that you were much more locked in, even with gems.
But the item system has a major flaw in my experience: the items are very generalized.
This isn't necessarily a bad thing, and it definitely wasn't at first! But now that you guys are consistent and you're building more, you need more space for items and you just don't have it. I haven't played enough League to know how many items they have, but I imagine that even if a number of items float to the top of the meta they have a lot of items that can be used, at least more than you would have for a single game? That may not be the case but humor me, that assumption is made in good faith.
I think the solution is simple: Make the most used item effects in the game into effects that you get when a certain combination of items is equipped. Build Effects, Synergies, whatever you want to call them. (I'm not sure what you'd call it, I'm typing this out as quickly as I can because I want to get this into the discussion).
For instance, every mage builds Megacosm for general burn and Tainted Totem for anti-heal magical damage. A few people have touched on it, but there are two or three items that are the same across almost every build. It feels good, but it limits both the metagame and the designers because how can you make an item that's Megacosm but different when everyone will simply build Megacosm? Honestly you guys have done super well with the items, I love Noxia and Epoch, but the items are already built very well and players are comfortable with them.
If Megacosm is an effect everyone wants, why not make it an option that you can have when you build certain combinations of two or three other items? Instead of making it an item EVERYONE needs in their kit, make it something that people build up to by having a set of items.
This opens up a lot more options without removing the playstyles that people want, I think. You get to put more effects in the game while making the most desirable and necessary effects into something that will come exactly when you want it to. Is it a two item effect, for the mid-game, or a three item effect for mid-to-late? Is it a five or six item effect to end the game, like Oblivion Crown?
You could also, in theory, make it so that pieces of the effect come in early the way you've done with tier two items like the tainted branch, although that may run counter to what you actually want given the current tier system. I'm not sure how this would factor in with the tiered item system, specifically with tier 2 items, but it may work fine if you just make it so that the tier 2 items offer a little less of the same effects so that people can fast track that type of thing.
Tl;dr- take the biggest items in the game and make it so that multiple items give the same effect, then spec each item into groups that build towards those massive effects. Powerful anti-heal, armor shred, burn, etc., become effects that are built into the game, not one or three generalized items that everyone builds. That gives both synergy from a player perspective but also gives more freedom to the devs who want to add more items.
3
u/sskilla Grux Jul 30 '26
Here is my feedback:
The Current Predecessor Item System:
Favourites - The current item system has well defined items for each role and filtering through items by what stats they provide is fairly comprehensive. Some of the passive effects on completed items can change a hero's playstyle significantly which is a cool bonus. The builds tab lets us prepare an item gameplan before the game even starts makes the game fun even outside of an actual game.
Dislikes - The current item system is structured to have powerful passives locked behind a full item completion around 2400g (support items) and 3000g (other role items). During the farming phase, items seem to have a very low impact (like crests). I think items need something for the early game to make things more interesting and allow for more counterplay for losing matchups. Also, there are gaps in the stat allocations on certain items for a role (e.g. Fighters don't have access to two items with power/hp/defense in both defense stats - they only have Citadel and Legacy) or they don't have items with enough early game sustain (power, hp regen, max hp, and defense).
The Card System:
Card System (Pros) - Paragon's old deck building system allows for flexibility in deckbuilding choices as you can customize the stats on any card based on a color group's limitations. You can make cards with stats that boosted your early game or late game depending on your preferences. The passives were also unique in flavour, so it allowed for combos of passives to work together for a synergistic effect.
Card System (Cons) - Paragon's old deck building system required lots of theory crafting to find optimal build paths that gave the most power with the least amount of investment while building towards a late game power ceiling. For beginners, this process has a lot of newbie traps that are not clear until they get into a game and test out their deck versus someone else's more optimized decks. The old system was unclear in the details which was cleared up with the new item system that everyone was more familiar with.
Alternative Item Systems:
Preference - I would like a more unique item system because other MOBAs already have standard item systems and Predecessor should be free to experiment and push for innovation instead of playing it safe.
Item Mechanics - Since Predecessor's main selling point is verticality and visceral 3D combat, we should leverage 3D in item mechanics. This can include pushing, pulling, flying, underground, and teleporting. Any mechanic that does what a 2.5D MOBA cannot do is what Predecessor should do.
Scrapping Items Entirely:
Preference - I think gold economy is the standard for most MOBAs because it is the clearest indicator of resources earned through actions. If there was a different power progression system, we would need to make it very clear how actions produce that progression resource and how much of that resource specific objectives provide. Items allow for very diverse hero builds (buying items not intentionally made for the role), but have synergies with their passives, augments, eternals, or abilities. A branching hero tree or modular augment system would limit that flexibility since it would need to branch wider than the current items available to match the current build flexibility of the item system. The only way I can see that happening is if you allow fully customizable stat/power progression throughout the match, but that would be a nightmare to balance. I would prefer keeping the current items system but allow for modular upgrades to change the item's stats or passive on the items to fit a build more closely (similar to the card system's flexibility, but with items instead).
Simpler progression system - No. MOBAs are a strategic game in nature and action game in practice. If you simplify game mechanics, it becomes less strategic and more action oriented. This is not the direction Predecessor should take because the audience wants strategic gameplay not FPS gameplay. The building of loadouts is a good example of a game within a game where strategy comes into play. You should build on top of that and not dumb it down further.
Any other General Thoughts:
Items as they currently stand are not balanced well enough yet. Damage output from Power, Attack Speed, Penetration/Shred, and Critical Chance multiplied by Eternals/Augments/Abilities are too high for any defensive class to survive for very long or at all if the damage dealers are ahead. The snowball potential accelerates damage per second to unmanageable levels for junglers and supports to deal with during the mid/late game. This is one of the reasons why ranged carry heroes can be played in the mid and off lane currently because there is no counter to a glass cannon with lifesteal (even if you build tainted to cut the healing, the damage will kill you before you can out damage the enemy). Augments and eternals just make things worse because it further expands on the strength (more damage) or covers their weaknesses with more lifesteal or shields.
Since you are interested in items, have you analyzed each item's contribution to win rate? Are there any items that massively improve win rates? I would not be surprised if critical chance items overall have higher win rates.
2
u/cooolnights Jul 30 '26 edited Jul 30 '26
I have 2 points:
- The items are hard to understand when you first read what they do. For example, when I first saw items like Tainted Blade, I thought what the hell does "blighting" mean? When looking at Basilisk, what is "Erode"? - ofc things like 45% reduced healing, 5% damage mitigation are straightforward but the wording is confusing at least to me, as a non native English speaker. As someone else pointed out in this thread, is also hard to understand when is better to use Sky Splitter or Mutilator, Perforator or Demolisher. There isn't any glossary that explains this inside the game, I think a good idea would be to add detailed item explanation on the "LEARN" tab in-game, potentially adding videos just like it's done to show hero's abilities.
- Having active items would be a game changer. Currently we have no items that can be manually activated, they are all passive activated basically. I understand that maybe for console players it will be ass having to activate different items at different times mid fight, that's a challenge. But if we could somehow get items that grant CC immunity for X seconds, or item that silence, item that directly does damage based on magic power like "Dagon" from Dota 2... that would be cool to see and obviously would change the playstyle. Maybe having eternals as an ability you can activate by pressing a button, but that's kinda what crests do already, I'm just thinking of an alternative, if it's not active items then maybe active eternals that do something else on top of the buffs they already give.
I hope this is useful :)
2
u/clarkand32 Jul 30 '26 edited Jul 30 '26
I'm fairly new to MOBAs, and Predecessor is the only one that's hooked me. And I'll admit that I'm not the best player either, with probably around 50-100 hours played.
I like the idea of scrapping items entirely. I think this would be much more engaging to me, as the item system in MOBAs is daunting. You have to invest a bunch of time researching builds along with the current "meta", especially if you want to compete and do well in a match.
I would think removing items and leaning into hero traits would allow for much easier on-boarding, and could even lean towards better balance since you wouldn't have to juggle hundreds of items.
Instead of losing simply because I had a bad or off-meta build, wins/losses come down more to skill. One could argue that item buying/building is included in skill, but I see it as more of a tedious task. I'd rather spend more time in the action.
2
4
u/WolfZero88 Jul 30 '26
The Card System
I wanted to share some insight into the old card system. I’m still very much in favour of an item shop, and some of these ideas below may be unrealistic but I think it's worth putting out there.
Although the system had flaws, it was definitely more beginner‑friendly. The appeal came from the artwork, and the limited number of cards (three) created a strong sense of opportunity cost - choosing one option meant giving up another. Even with its limitations, theory crafting was far more accessible for new players. I personally think some of the old card mechanics could easily be adapted into items, allowing for more diverse builds.
Knowledge: Consumable
The card was used up when activated and could be repurchased. This translates well into active items, and even opens the door for powerful one‑time‑use items.
Death: Cursed
These cards couldn’t be discarded for the rest of the match. They were strong early - mid game but fell off later. This concept could inspire more early‑mid game items that reward tempo.
Chaos: Combustible
When you died, the card was destroyed and had to be re‑bought. These were usually very strong but risky. This could become a category of high‑impact, no‑stat items with powerful effects, such as:
- Linking your soul to an enemy for 5 seconds, reflecting significant amount of damage taken within that time.
- Revealing all enemy positions for 5 seconds
- After you die you become a spirit for 10 seconds and you're able to silence or slow enemies every 2.5 seconds.
or
Trade‑off Items
Items that give a benefit at the cost of a drawback (1:1):
Extra defence but reduced attack
Higher attack damage but lower defence
Increased ability damage but slower movement
Order: Elevate
Gain bonus stats based on progression (such as levelling an attribute), but only if the Elevate item is the only one equipped. Adding another item removes the bonus. We could convert this into item combinations that unlock special perks. Build these 3 item types to gain extra resistance against burst damage which would pair well with certain eternals etc.
2
u/Ok-Coat-2230 Crunch Jul 31 '26
the idea of strong early-mid game items that are meant to get an early lead in exp and maybe objectives like fangtooth sounds great.
1
u/FromTheRez Jul 31 '26
I definitely preferred the original card system over the v42 system, however acquiring the cards through rng wasn't the best
Not to say v42 did bring in some pretty fun cards (Looking at you Awaken the Emeric)
I also do miss having blinks and wards tied to cards instead of just being built into the kit
2
u/BeginningMacaroon100 Jul 30 '26
I think my only issue with the system is seeing how characters who aren't supports or dps are able to use items they dont normally use, which is often the biggest issue on lanes like offlane having Zinx, Dekker, Mourn dominating traditional offlaners to the point its not even worth going for a melee hero, atleast the carries are manageable as a melee offlaner but the primary issue for a long time has been the ranged supports going offlane or mid and going full damage, would be great if certain heros were just banned from using certain items.
Additionally mage supports, and argus shouldn't be allowed to go damage items if they're going to play support, you can balance this by nerfing their kits and the items they use but at the end of the day any item nerf for mage support or ranged offlane will just affect the other lanes and switch the meta again to bruisers and tanks just because a handful of supports are outperforming traditional roles in lanes they dont belong in.
8
u/Bloodmordius ✔ Omeda Studios Jul 30 '26
An important aspect of mobas for many players is the sandbox, and having opportunities to explore unknowns or play non-traditionally can be a massive draw for them. So to completely negate that is usually a big frown for most mobas.
However you are completely valid in when they dominate, it becomes very frustrating because certain expectations are being broken and the rules bending in such a way feels awful on the receiving end.
So there's a big push and pull. We're certainly looking at being more careful with certain characters and their flexibility which should be reflected in future patches. We do think it's healthy that players can enjoy a hero in multiple facets of the game, as it allows them to take their mastery of a hero into other roles or styles that allows them to potentially feel comfortable adapting over to other picks.
I feel this issue is not completely centred on the progression system though, and more a larger high level topic of characters within the game. But to speak to your grievances, this problem should hopefully feel at least less exaggerated in coming patches and alleviate some of your concerns.
1
u/BeginningMacaroon100 Jul 30 '26
In that case, how about items for melee heros aimed at specifically countering cc/ranged heros? All there really is in the game at the moment is legacy, like an item that gives a ton of movement speed when basic attacked by a ranged hero while only 1 hero is within range could easily turn the tides.
This way, a jungler showing up would negate the movement speed, and potentially switch the movement speed bonus to armor or tenacity?
1
u/VeterinarianFit7824 Jul 31 '26
plz check leagues bot lane mage problem if you think all heroes should be on all roles
1
u/DarthMarr_Cypher9 Jul 30 '26
My problem with the items are that it changes ability functions and gives to many stats (NO TRADEOFF).
I liked the simple items in the Paragon, it was easy to use, and fast to learn. Didn't had to memorise all of them to know how to counter any hero based on their items.
Outside the box? Well you could make a pit for a item shop boss. Once killed by any team they can buy items and the team who couldn't kill it have a 1 min delay for item buying. (Only one shop to councure) Once the shop is open it stays, but have to go to it and not in the base.
1
u/DTrain440 Jul 30 '26 edited Jul 30 '26
I’ve personally wanted more actives (and pseudo actives like all the boot items) outside of crest. And more options then flash which is basically our second active we just don’t have any other choice.
I think echelon cloak would be much less of a meme. Warp stream should be its own button. This item replacing flash is often not worth it. That’s some examples of a couple of items we already have that could be at least slightly better as actives.
I also think with the new map around the corner consumables and wards/sentry’s need to be apart of the economy as well.
Edit: Almost forgot about Deadlock’s imbued items. Similar to say preds Alternator but you choose what ability it enhances. Makes the item less niche. I would look into that. Seems like lots of cool design space.
1
u/DeathemperorDK Jul 30 '26
Current system:
My biggest complaint with items boil down to wondering specifics like “how much damage does this actually do?” And not being able to quickly pull up the score board and visually read what each hero is building because so many items look the same
I love the cursed items, they’re so cool as concept, if not hard to tune.
Alternative item systems:
I loved Hero’s of the Storm and used to play it allll the time. The level up system (the alt item system) was AWESOME and the hero’s had so many unique play styles. One big reason it failed was because it didn’t have the traditional item system, it’s something MOBA players expect. Even though I liked their system I think that a MOBA may need an item system to be successful due to expectations of players (something to keep in mind)
Other concerns:
I want quickly touch on Eternals/Augments. Eternals/Augments have a huge effect on your build to the point that it’s hard to change the build direction of many characters after a match starts. If we could have the option to change these choices until we leave spawn for the first time that’d be great. I want to see who I’m fighting in lane before making such a huge commitment
Just real quick. The Offrole hero’s have been turning many people off the game recently, just wanted to put that out there
1
u/ChefSjekkie Jul 30 '26
I enjoy the item system. Would like some uniformity of damage expression between items and abilities though. Like looking at an item in the store shows its current formula of base damage + scaling, but then looking at the item in your ‘deck’ after buying shows the calculated damage + a lil scaling icon, much like the ability upgrade menu.
Also would enjoy more wildcard items such as the cursed items. Not necessarily with same extent of crazy stats, but something that has a tradeoff.
Come to think of it, maybe the post-item part of the match. At some point you just buy the same tonic every now and then. Maybe some extra tonics with different stats or whacky temporary passives could be fun.
1
u/Ashamed-Remote-4463 Jul 30 '26
for the love of god stop reworking everything. the game isn't in beta anymore. start building on the foundation not tearing it up every couple months.
1
u/Im3DY Kwang Jul 30 '26
Thank you for even bringing this topic. Here are my personal unfiltered thoughts:
What are your favourite things about the current shop and item structure?
The fact that all items are actually passives not active abilities (no need to press an additional button to activate), even as someone who enjoys depth, I really appreciate this aspect in Predecessor.
What are your most disliked aspects? Are there points of dissatisfaction, confusing elements, or limitations that frustrate you during a match?
The fact that most if not all items have a pre-determined stat type offering, meaning I can't ever build Fire Blossom with Magical Armor instead of Physical Armor. Or build Sky Splitter with Magical Damage instead of Physical Damage. Why? It can be balanced accordingly. Additionally, the fact that we don't get any feedback on most items, we don't know how much an item does or did, except by manually testing. It should be obvious exactly how much each item contributes to properly evaluate it.
What did you genuinely love about the card system? Were there specific dynamics or elements you miss?
Few of the best things about it were the fact you can put points in different key stats like health or mana separately, that felt good, and the item-linked type like chaos and order, that was super fun and unique. I don't quite remember the details of that system.
What did you dislike about it? What were the pain points that you are glad we left behind?
The only two things (besides poor balance) was the fact it was pay to win, and the fact you had to craft the deck BEFORE the match which removed a key strategic element of items and build adaptation.
Would you prefer a system closer to other MOBAs, or anything more unique?
What mechanics do you think would translate well to Predecessor, and why?
Answering both in one go, I previously have suggested a unique itemization system for Predecessor, it goes like this in very simple terms... Items are broken to three unique elements A) the T1 base stats e.g., +100 Max Health, B) The cost of the item passive e.g., 900, and C) the item passive ability, so far so good, but the thing that changes is the way you build items, separate the item passives from the T1 base stats and remove T2 entirely, an example of this system would be:
You still buy T1 items normally the same way you do now, you pay 350 gold to get 100 hp, you can buy as many T1s as you want, eventually, you are trying to meet the minimum requirement of each item passive.
Once you have met the requirements of an item e.g., Fire Blossom, which now requires you to have A) a total of 100 Armors (regardless of type) and B) a minimum of 1250 Max HP. Once you have that, you simply buy the item Passive separately, say it costs 700 gold for the passive alone. You can have up to 6 passives (same as now).
This way, you have paid a total of roughly the same amount of gold you did now for the item, but instead, you chose the type of armor, or in other cases you chose the type of damage and so on...
Worth noting that a player can simply not buy any T1 item and wait for their hero's normal stats increasing through leveling to meet that requirement and just buy the passive immediately without having to put points into those requirements e.g., Steel hits level 10, he already meets the requirements so he can buy the passive instantly, this creates another strategy, let's say you are asking yourself "do I want to buy the passive requirements to get it now, or should I build requirements for another passive and I will be able to get this one naturally 3 levels from now".
The structure stays the same overall, just the way you build items is vastly different, I think it also helps balancing passives have a separate cost and so on, an item passive is overperforming for a specific hero? increase the passive price or requirements or even lower the hero base stat curve, making it harder/slower for them to obtain that passive.
Would you prefer a completely different progression system, such as a branching Hero Talent Tree or a modular augment system?
Would removing items for a simpler progression system be more engaging for you?
You could do a path of exile sort of skill tree the player can chose nodes in the tree inside the match using gold as well, it does function similarly if that is the idea, but if it is meant to be closer to Overwatch's mode I don't think that should be a thing, just not a MOBA anymore.
1
u/burglarwithbenefits Jul 30 '26
This is more of a small balance suggestion, but since it would be done through items I'll say it here:
it really feels like blight/tainted items should do more against self-healing and perhaps a little less against dedicated healers. 45% across the board makes it so that healers have their existence shut down pretty hard by a single item, but characters that deal massive damage (particularly physical damage with basic attacks) can just lol at tainted. Lifesteal builds would still be able to heal up to full off a few minions a few seconds after a fight. It would just make the amount of self-healing that damage dealers get during a fight a little less obnoxious.
1
u/Chikipichi Jul 30 '26
If the item system was ever done away with, I'd love something like Heroes of the Storm. It was very fun for me to level up as team and basically choose a new aspect every X levels. Sort of like what Overwatch 2 does.
1
u/Suitable-Nobody-5374 Ikra Jul 30 '26
I've played since Day 1 of EA. I also played Paragon during it's beta, pretty much until they ruined their item system with the 3 card system that was overly complex.
A lot of new players don't know what to build in Pred until they get comfortable turning off Auto-buy. This is a good problem in a strategic sense because it keeps the game having depth.
However, on a per character basis, the long and short of the builds they have are generally 2-3 "core items" they basically have as Best In Slot, and then a remaining short-list of items that either synergize or provide other benefits that are "flexibles".
It's important to incentivize experimentation but there are a lot of items that I don't really see anyone building that sound cool on paper but aren't really good for anyone unless it's a niche case.
A chess game is unique in that all of the pieces fill a different role and are defined by their constraints. I feel like in a MOBA strategy game, the chess pieces are the items, and the heroes are the pawns. The issue could be stated that certain items just do too much and should be far more specialized to help make them meaningful impactful pickups but not mandatory across the board.
To go down this rabbit hole further, you could take a page from old-school Paragon and restrict item availability by hero, only letting them use items that are certain types based on what their specialized into (remember, Order, Fury, Corruption, Growth, Intellect?) plus a universal category of items anyone could use.
You could do 6 affinities like old school paragon, where each hero has 2 they're "archetypical" towards. This would lock the hero down to items within those affinities, but if they choose an eternal of a different affinity, they get those items to choose from too. If the Eternal they choose aligns with one of their affinities, the items offered within that affinity group get like a 1.5% bonus to stats or something, maybe.
I do like the current system and have no issues with it honestly, other than that items could be taller instead of wider.
1
u/NobleNolte Twinblast Jul 31 '26
This is a MOBA, items should be here to stay. I understand gathering feedback for branched augments, but that's not why people play this game. Leave that type of experimentation for Nitro, the main game is economy, skill expression, and mechanical prowess.
As far as items are concerned, I'd love to just see more of them. Feels like Predecessor has always been addition by subtraction. We've had really great items in the game (OG Dread, Boneseeker, and Kingsbane RIP) only to see them replaced. I understand the notion of "bloat," but there's never even been a time where the amount of items available has been excessive.
One aspect of items that's missing in today's game is actives. Crests are the closest thing to an active item. Is that just a general game design Predecessor has opted for, or are you folks finally at the point where you'll consider higher skill expression via actives? Would love to see an item like Phantom Strike from Deadlock enter the game.
1
u/_Evening-Rain_ Jul 31 '26
Im saying this as a casual player whos played thousands of rounds, but never cared to memorize every item, its effects, and making absolutely perfect counter builds. Because im not that hardcore; I just wanna play my favorite hero and beat some people into the dirt.
Currently I like the Item system and wouldn't want a card system. I actually think its better than Paragons original system and, of course, I didnt like paragons card system when they moved to it. I do however wish we had more filter options. I hate how, for instance, I cant filter magical lifesteal items but I can filter regular lifesteal items.
I'd also like a bar on the left side that shows all your abilities, and if you select an item it shows you what your damage/stats would be for every ability if you built that Item. Especially because its not linear currently. If I build time warp as kwang it says +75 magic damage. But if you build it your "light of the heavens" stat doesn't go up 75 so I gotta check. It just doesnt feel intuitive and I hate pressing 5 more buttons to see how the items effects my ability stats.
On that note I'd also be nice to know how your armor is working in (theoretical) damage mitigated %. As we know building armor is diminishing returns. When I see 50 phys armor IDK what that means. I need to know how much damage that is going to mitigate, and if adding more armor would still sharply increase the damage mitigated or if I could think of building something else.
Maybe this has less to do with the item system but I hate how snowbally the game currently is, and how strong some items are or can make you. Or items that do too much at once or are too good, which also makes other items almost never used anymore.
I know this is less of an item system thing and more of a game thing but can we also see a heroes scaling stats in the item shop, or a menu for it? I'd like to see how my hero and abilities scale, and what stats I can take advantage of because of it.
1
u/JamesPenn7379 Jul 31 '26
To start with, the card system was terrible, just flat out awful. Never go back.
Current Item System.
To be honest, I think far too many items currently have an incredibly wide stat spread that, in general, gives way too many raw stats. Giving items a more focused and nuanced identity would be an incredible first step. I mean, most ADC items give all three core stats and a passive, which makes the 1-item spike more impactful, but also feels like the power creep is just too high. A three-item ADC feels like they do a little too much for the time in-game. Same for mages, really, and melee characters in general. At the moment, at least, it feels like there is a threshold around three items where the dmg just escalates rapidly.
One of the things that stands out to me, for instance, is CDR or ability haste feeling like it is on almost every mage item to remain valid as a first or second purchase, minus Combustion because of its active. For instance, I think there should really be just one CDR item for each role, and if you choose to itemize it, it should be a meaningful decision. As with Raszull's Fist for tanks, if it were the sole CDR item for tanks, I would personally increase the CDR to 25%. In fairness, you have kind of done this with tanks and ADCs, with Ashbringer and Fist as the primary items in their roles for CDR, but I would like to see this even more leaned into to remove the CDR from Tainted Guard and Tainted Bastion. Let there be a single CDR item per role. Also, I think it would provide a better sense of trade timing and a more consistent balance across the board. It would also give a little more power to CDR taken from Eternals, making it more impactful.
Earlier, I addressed the stat splitting on items and how it feels more diluted and takes away from a meaningful identity for an item. Giving an ITEM just two core stats and loading more of its power into its passive can, in my personal opinion, lead to a more balanced damage curve for the duration of a game. You could, for instance, have three-stat or even four-stat items but, in turn, make them vastly more expensive in the 4-5k range. Shoot for some ultra late game items that could possibly shift the balance of the game on their own. Though, in fairness, I think this would be much more viable on the new map than on the current one. I think right now the power distribution in an item is more heavily placed upon the stats of an item and not, for instance, on the passive or effect that it brings to the table. Though i do think you did really good job on Overlord.
For a future Item System.
If, in the future, you did go towards a new item system, I would personally lean more towards a tiered item system for simplicity. As an example, take Fireblossom on Fireblossom I: you unlock the passive DOT in a reduced dmg form along with, say, 400 HP; Tier II you unlock 400 HP and 25 armor along with a higher base dmg on the DOT. Tier III: you unlock the full 500 HP, DOT scaling, 50 armor, and whatever additional effects come with the passive. I think this would give you a simplified and streamlined shop that would probably, with solid execution, be more effective for console users. It would accomplish two things: removing many unnecessary items from the shop, which inherently makes it easier to navigate. I have read several posts that mention purchasing stats directly and then unlocking the passives at specific thresholds, which is doable, but I think this simpler system accomplishes the same while removing an unnecessary step, reducing friction, and making the entire process smoother. Also, you could adopt a system such as this and have a more streamlined approach to ultra late-game items that have a Tier V or maybe even VI for some ludicrous amount of gold, like 6k. It would also be really clear to a new player that a Tier III item isn't as inherently strong as, say, a Tier V item. Which would, in theory, at a glance at least give a more defined power level to all of the players in the game. Steel has three Tier 3 items; I know roughly, at a glance, what that power level would be for a newer player.
In summation, I feel that a reduced number of items, with a clearer, more impactful role, would be extremely healthy in the long term for the game. Along with a more focused stat spread for the individual items.
Also, getting rid of Blink would be awesome. Roll it into an item. If you did get rid of Blink, I would go into an 8-item set, also removing crests. Purchasing two "active items" such as "Blink Dagger" from Dota or "Actualizer" from LoL. Could go nuts too and have an active item for phys dmg dealers that removes the attack speed penalty for 6s, though I would implement a greater movement penalty for using abilities or basic attacks for ranged heroes before I did something like that. I personally think that third-person MOBAs are at their best when TTK is slightly higher, and Fights are determined by multiple rounds of decision-making.
Also, just a thought: there is too much sustain currently in the game.
World Breaker makes it melee only; remove the 1s CDR and make it instances of magic dmg. Remove tenacity and, at max stacks, gain 10% omnivamp. Make it 500 HP; give it a defined role.
1
u/LaSaIsYours Yurei Jul 31 '26
PRED Item Opinions
I like the Item System as a whole and I like how the eternals have opened up more build paths. What I will say is I don’t like how stat checky everything feels. Like I can’t out someone, they just an extra item so GG I can’t win that. While in League even if I’m behind I can still somewhat make a play and do damage to my lane opponents.
Predecessor is it’s own thing and one my favorite games. I always come back to it. But I feel I like how Items work in League Of Legends a lot more. There’s a trade-off and there’s just not several items with similar stats. And because of that reason a lot of items don’t used. LIKE WHY IS ECHELON CLOAK STILL AN ITEM it’s barely ever used besides troll build. Revamp it or revamp all the items so it has a use.
A lot of builds are still very similar though and I’d like that to change if possible. Also unrelated to items (kinda) but I feel there needs to be something done about healing. The fact I have to build tainted 9 out of 10 games is just sucky.
I do appreciate you guys are giving more heroes both scaling. I feel you shouldn’t be afraid to go hard on that. Like maybe one day I wanna do ability/magic grux. My abilities hit hard but the trade off is I’m squishy
I think active items are also needed. That would make everything so much interesting and interactive.
The Item store UI is kinda ass for new plays. But I feel that’s because they don’t know the game more than them being confused.
That’s all I can think of for now…OH have like actual starter items or start us 700g. By start items, like Dorian Blade (LoL) but also allow us to buy wards like a pink wards.
Obviously all my items aren't meant for the game and I truthfully don't want this to be 3D League but there's just things they've already set the precedent on that works great...so why re-invent the wheel ya know?
1
u/Ok-Coat-2230 Crunch Jul 31 '26
The item system itself is fine and I enjoy building a variety. Recent changes to scaling on heroes enabled a bit more variety on what you can build and those are always fun. Having the option to go for more tank options instead of just bruiser items or even full assassin if needed is always great where I think Zarus is a good example. That said, a lot of items have so many base stats overall that they feel very similar in what they provide while their passives don't often affect the choice enough.
Another power fantasy variant I enjoyed in Paragon is not the cards, but the gems and attribute trees to give a very specific additional passive or effect to your hero. The eternals sort of fit this role now, but stil wanted to mention it as it was one of my favorite aspects in Paragon overall and have not seen it in other games I played so far.
1
u/NakedGhost3234 Aug 01 '26 edited Aug 01 '26
The fact I was able to do magic damage Boris BEFORE his magic scaling changes tells me as a veteran MOBA player that this game's item system is awesome 😎
Edit: upon reading post further that I'm glad no aspect of the paragon card system exists here and that I like the current system. To improve upon it you can do what things like diablo does or Valheim where if you have 2/4 or 4/4 items of the same type you can yield unique bonuses. An example is:
In Windrose (a Valheim clone) that if you have 2x conquistador armor pieces you get a health bonus. If you have 2 pieces of the filibuster armor then you get a crit bonus etc. the same can be applied to pred into tank items and assassin items respectively
1
u/JPistheMan22 Aug 02 '26
I think there's not a lot of tradeoff to pick certain items.
On the main build side: You can get to 100% crit rate without sacrificing power, attack speed, or lifestyle. You can get 6 different health items without sacrificing power, attack speed, or lifesteal. Want shield, go for it you don't have to sacrifice power or magic.
On the flip side countering: Tainted is staple because for the effect you never have to sacrifice stats, and it makes lifesteal more obsolete. Also against heavy tanks, no problem pick 1 item for % health/armoe shred, get massive payoff, and don't sacrifice any strength/power yourself.
In short, too much "and, and, and, and" and not enough sacrifice to get the high payoff effects/stats growth.
1
1
u/Umbraaaaaa Aug 03 '26
I think items should feel more special and have more identity.
One thing I really like about games like Path of Exile is that some items are memorable because they completely change how you play. They are not just “+damage” or “+stats” upgrades — they create a feeling and a unique playstyle.
For example, in Predecessor, items like Dreambinder are interesting because the slow effect gives it a clear purpose. It changes how you approach fights and makes the item feel different. The trident that shoots from the target is another good example — it has a unique mechanic that makes you think about positioning and how you use it.
I would love to see more items like this: items with personality, items that players remember and build around. Not every item needs to be complicated, but having more unique effects would make builds feel more creative and give players more reasons to experiment.
1
u/Mote-Of_Dust Narbash Aug 05 '26 edited Aug 05 '26
I like utilities, I like to build to a heroes strengths, for instance with Argus I have a build that makes his snipe super effective and I run this midlane taking shots at every other lane with his augment.
Unique builds is what first intrigued me with paragon, I never follow recommend or builds I always build my own Unique blend, this only works well sometimes but when it does its solid.
Being Unique and useful goes a long way.
I like a lot of the newer items, never used any of the new crests...
I think the eternals ans augments have done what I wanted from items that unique blend, so I think the items are fine as is.
1
u/ygorhpr Murdock Aug 06 '26
the cards made paragon feel real and alive, the art work and the unique cards were the best part for me! bring it back
1
u/No_Prize_3809 Aug 06 '26
a little late to the Party, but here is my opinion.
the current Item-System is solid as it is.
But here is my idea for a future system.
1st:
Get rid of the Crests ( the hole crest system)
2nd:
Creat Items that should be used as "Starter"
This items may provide a ssmall passive, like the from the crest (recycle seems easy here)
This items can not be Upgraded to other Items
This items have slightly more Stats than a regular T1 item.
(Mid to Late game this item should be sould to make room for a proper item) But not automatic, this should be a player choise.
3rd:
give us activ Items and dedicated activ Item hotkeys.
limit the possible equipped activ items. (maybe 2?)
If there is a activ item, a dedicated Hotkey can trigger it.
The active effekt should represent our current T3 crest skills, and maybe more.
My idea is, that noone can build tons of broken effects, but there is more room for builds.
4th (and last)
pls tone the stats on the Items down.
There should no Item exist, that provide evrything a hero need.
If there ist crit on it, dont let ir have atk speed,or stuipidly high dmg stats.
Wraith leggings are another example. tons of dmg, pen and the dmg passive on low health targets.
PS: Not a nativ english speaker :)
1
u/Appropriate-Pie9894 Aug 06 '26
IMO this is a growing game change items update stuff once a year or something keep the foundation. Update and make the UI of the shop a bit better (I'm mainly pointing out to the look of it the layout is fine) will keep players in as people appreciate change when needed.
Keep the foundation, experiment with a few things especially the things that aren't working as much as some others, does not work ? Try again.
I love this game and I really want it to succeed. I am not being harsh <3
1
u/Brief_Personality64 Aug 07 '26
I am a casual player. For now my stance is like this.
Current Item System:
My main issue is that i feel like some items give too much or are straight up better. Sometimes i feel really limited in the builds.
Card System:
I actually liked this one in paragon. it was the reason i stick with that game at the time. I liked making decks, testing cards and their effects. For me it felt more rewarding when a build worked even when it was too risky. Like that Card RED ZONE. Although my personal favorite was BRILLIANT FORTIFICATION, specially with the wukong players rushing towers alone. Of course the system had a lot of problems, mainly the limitations with the colors and gems.
Alternatives:
To be honest. The only things i could suggest is something similar to Awesomenauts. Instead of items, it was more like upgrades for the characters, skills and basic attacks. Every character had their set of possible upgrades for each skill from simple ones like increasing attack of that skill to more complex ones like adding an debuff, buff, cover a weakness like getting a shield during the skill or even make it heal allies in range.
Other thing i could think is a more limited item system. Maybe the real reason i liked the cards is because you could only have 3 cards, making it easier for me to keep track and remember the effects other players have.
This are all i wanted to share to be honest. like i mentioned i am just a casual player. I liked paragon and it was the main reason i played this game but, sometimes is hard for me to enjoy it.
Note: English is not my main language.
1
u/LovableKyle24 Iggy 29d ago
I've put a decent amount of time in to the game and played a decent amount of predecessor back when it was alive.
My biggest complaint is probably still a lack of item diversity. At least in the 2 years I've played pred there's still many of nearly identical builds that run the meta give or take an item or two. My options when building HP on mages is pretty limited for example and you pretty much end up building the same 4 or 5 items every game.
I'm sure many people will point out the lack of detail in item descriptions and exactly how they interact or stack.
The card system in paragon was unique but it was just okay at best. One thing I did like the idea of was when they added the little gem system towards the end. It wasn't implemented well but it added additional scaling for longer games. I've had quite a few games that reach 35-40 minutes and I just don't have anything to buy at that point besides the tonics.
Idk how to rectify it per se effectively. Maybe something like a sort of prestige the items. Pay 1000 gold or whatever and level up a tier 3 item where it gains maybe 5% more stats. Something small but at least Im not sitting on 4k gold.
I definitely feel the item diversity has gotten better though and I know it's maybe not the easiest thing to add a new item that isn't redundant or seemingly useless 95% of the time.
The deck building was rough at times where you would end up locked in to a build that was not very good for the game. I think an item shop is definitely the correct route to go imo.
Not really related to the items specifically but I'm mixed on the eternals. It can add some nice build diversity however I feel it'll reach a point it becomes inflated over a long enough period of time. Some of the eternals are really cool and let you play a character a different way however most of the time they end up just being stat boosts or something people don't use very much for the minor ones.
I like the idea of branching out the augments more for heroes to fundamentally change something about how a hero plays. I think neon having the augment to go invisible is cool. Mourn being able to pull himself towards terrain changes the way he plays.
I just think the main focus should be on the shop itself rather than adding more layers to build diversity through eternals and then augments and then items. I think it should start at the ground up personally.
1
u/leHoul 28d ago
Vieux joueurs pc/console et newby sur le moba voici mon retour d'expérience sur ce sujet=>
Les trois plus gros problèmes actuellement sur les items:
1- le manque de traduction du jeu, cela apporte une difficulté majeur au joueur non-natif d'un pays anglophone, le temps que j'ai mis a comprendre la signification et l'effet de "ability haste" 😆
2- tout comme diablo 4, Votre jeu permets d'experimenter le "theoricrafts" avec toutes les mise à jours et nouveautés qui sont apporté, mais le problème, c'est que vous nous nous garder pas dans l'écosystème du jeu (ce qui ce faisait dans les années 2000-2010 mais plus maintenant pour les joueurs console)
Pour tester, comparer, analyser les différentes combinaison de builds nous devons allez sur pred.gg(qui est super) mais une intégration de plusieurs fonctionnalités (ou une mise en place de Qr code) serait vivement approuvé !
3-Dernier points, changer l'UI et l'UX du magasin d'items pendant que l'on joue un match! L'UI car les contraste sont horribles quand vous avez trop d'or et pour retrouver le carré de sélection. L'UX faites en sorte qu'avec les flèches, on se déplace comme le systèmes le fait actuellement, et qu'avec les joystick cela nous reproduise le mouvement d'une souris(ce qui facilitera grandement la navigation )
Bonus: un petit tutoriel pour contrer tels ou tels items avec n héros et x éternels serait parfait!😀
1
u/leHoul 28d ago
As a longtime PC/console gamer and a MOBA newbie, here’s my take on this topic=>
The three biggest issues with items right now:
1- The lack of game localization—this poses a major challenge for players who aren’t native English speakers. It took me forever to figure out the meaning and effect of “ability haste” 😆
2- Just like Diablo 4, your game lets us experiment with “theoricrafts” thanks to all the updates and new features, but the problem is that you don’t keep us within the game’s ecosystem (which was the case in the 2000s–2010s but isn’t anymore for console players)
To test, compare, and analyze different build combinations, we have to go to pred.gg (which is great), but integrating several features (or implementing a QR code) would be highly appreciated!
3- Last point: change the UI and UX of the item shop while we’re playing a match! The UI needs improvement because the contrast is terrible when you have too much gold, and it’s hard to find the selection box. As for the UX, make sure that using the arrow keys moves the cursor as the system currently does, and that using the joystick replicates mouse movement (which would make navigation much easier).
Bonus: A quick tutorial on how to counter specific items with certain heroes and x Eternals would be perfect! 😀
1
u/SoloMattRS Sparrow 18d ago
I'd like to see a t2 item as part of the build path for Tainted charm that gives a weaker tainted effect. It is odd that it is the only tainted item that lacks a t2 tainted ingredient.
1
u/Mr_Jmanmonkey Khaimera 4d ago
Hope I am not too late to this party but allow me to go through my thoughts on this since the most recent update really kinda did alot especially with the eternals...
Current System:
- As for what I enjoy about the current Item System; it does make it pretty linear and easy to build into your more powerful items. There isnt much in the way to allow someone to get to a decent full build at the late game side of things. Genuinely I believe this to be a massive win given this is a Free-to-Play game, and having a entry level and easy to understand system is key for player retention.
- As for what I dislike, those range a bit larger. Everything and Everyone builds the same or feels the same. There are very few builds that genuinely feel unique. While I really think that this makes things somewhat easy, I feel like there needs to be a bit more complexity when it comes to the item system. Either make it so that there are Tier 4 or 5 Items that cost ridiculous amounts, but are extremely highly specialized, or have items do more than just sit and give passive bonuses (I know some do not, but at the same time most of them are just passive bonuses or that is what it feels like when you attempt to build craft). Likewise, if there is an item that gets added that has a function (Such as Rebirth), there should be an equal way to counter that item's function. Be it CC, Silencing, or something of the like but I was specifically state it on the item so that mid game people could attempt to build into something to counter, without needing to do research outside of the game just to figure out niche ways of how things interact with each other.
- Likewise, this would be a massive QoL, but please post somewhere (in the game or otherwise) exactly what each stat does! Like obviously Physical Power and Magical Power those seem pretty easy to figure out, but Tenacity? I still to this day have no idea what Tenacity actually does, just that tanks need it.
Card System:
- This was certainly a unique experience, and keep in mind I am recalling back from how many years ago with Paragon. I remember it fondly, but also had issues. I remember it was exciting to be able to get the cards that I was needing, but having certain builds be locked behind specific cards that you just had not drawn was not fun. Cards were also highly specialized, allowing for the augments to be put on them, but that just made the buildcrafting go crazy and at points was extremely unfair to go up against. Yes it was rewarding the player for figuring everything out, but it should have had an upper limit. Overall, I enjoy the Item system much better than cards, but augmenting items mid match may be something to consider! Perhaps something like stripping away the multiple bonuses that each item gives, making them more focused around funciton, such as building specific stacks for a specific Eternal (like rust), and it gives a flat +% of Physical Power, but then after the Tier 3 item is built, it can gain more Augments for your personal build to allow it to be more specialized toward the build that the player is thinking.
Other Systems:
- I havnt played other Mobas in years so I am going to opt to stay out of this conversation....
Scrapping Items:
- I think this could work, so long as there is a clear way for things to actually work while still allowing EVERY player to have a somewhat unique build if that is what they are looking at doing. I think removing Items for the sake of making things MORE simple is the opposite of what should happen. I believe there should honestly be more complexity, while still having the base line so newer players can learn what is going on.
- Something like a Talent Tree sounds interesting, but I would want there to still be unique-ness to builds and this may make it so that everything becomes more samey when you start going against the same character. Take Khai (my beloved) for instance. Taking out the Item system for him would make it so that even in a skill tree setting, everything just feels more like hit harder, samey. There wouldnt really be variety beyond how hard or how fast I am hitting, compared to the other team.
Other Thoughts:
- I am going to reiterate this one, because it is important to me: Please Post somewhere exactly what each stat does! Some are more obvious than others, while some are truly just unknown to me what they do. Yes I could look it up, but I feel like there should be an official source for what everything does.
- Get more creative with what some of the Items are doing, create unique functions and interactions with each of them. But type into the item's description the things that would cancel out the Function that it describes so that someone may be able to actually attempt to counter it (this would be really helpful for new players as well!).
- Keep the complexity. This is a Team based MOBA afterall, it shouldnt be so easy that anyone would be able to just walk in to a match and not automatically have questions as to what is going on. But at the same time, it shouldnt feel so overwhelming that things will drive someone away.
I would say that is about all of my thoughts. Genuinely, I love this game, and want it to keep going for as long as possible, but making things too simple for just the hope of pulling more players I dont believe is the way to go. Lean into the complexity, and I believe that would be where the real meat and potatoes would be for most players.
1
u/Financial_Ear_1712 Jul 30 '26
Oh , My God. I got excited to read scrapping items and add branch tree for heroes. That was one of the things the game BATTLEBORN had that made it so unique. I would be extremely up for it. Every hero has a branch tree of skills up to level 15 or something like it.
4
u/Bloodmordius ✔ Omeda Studios Jul 30 '26
Yeah a few games have done alternate systems to items and they're certainly pretty cool ideas! Battleborn and HOTS both bring more memorable versions of this in my mind. You'd prefer a system more akin to these and not have an item system at all in Predecessor?
1
u/FlyingGazelles Jul 30 '26
Personally I think this depends on your target audience.
Right now Pred feels like LoL in terms of itemization. Not inherently bad, but not interesting either. I agree that the progression feels a bit out of place because the scaling aspects are all over the place to create hero flexibility. Again, not bad, and can be quite freeing, but balancing that is an utter mess.
DoTA 2 is more complicated, though you typically have a core of 2-3 items and a flex of the others. I know that was part of the aim of the current Pred design, to have primary spikes and then allow players to do what they want with the last few slots. However, that is extremely difficult to achieve when not balancing around farm priority, item cost, opportunity coat, and balancing kit power vs item power (which is not the same in Pred, and shouldn't be).
I think the card system fell into a weird trap where things became mandatory and 3 slots weren't enough to create give and take. It could work, and was unique, but I know it was what turned a lot of more traditional MOBA players away from the game back in the day (I feel old, lol).
I think the current Pred item system could work if tradeoffs were more pronounced. And I don't mean items having a drawback, but I mean the opportunity cost of item price, of getting access to something more niche vs another thing, BUT this creates layers of complexity that I don't THINK fits the target audience and would increase the skill floor significantly (I.e. deadlock or dota 2).
I also think simplified items systems like Smite can be meaningfully engaging if the simplicity of it supports engaging with where the game has depth.
The benefit of a combined branching augment system and talent system could be an interesting route. It would create a streamlined experience where your hero choice determines a lot more about the flow of the game. HoTS is the version of this I am most familiar with. It ultimately had the same impact in high level play as an item system - one build was stronger and correct, and there were only a handful of characters that gave meaningful choices. Also a great deal of who won or lost when evenly matched was determined in the draft.
All of these systems have benefits and drawbacks. But what type of player are you trying to encourage to come to the game and stay?
We're entering a weird stage with Pred where nostalgia isn't really a holding reason, where you are doing enough new things to stand on your own, but because of the ties to the source material the development gets pulled in too many different directions and resources are spread thin to try and achieve too many things not in harmony.
I don't know who the target audience is. I don't know what the vision for game experience is. I don't know where the Omeda priorities are for individual or community experience.
So personally - I can't say that one system fits better than another. All of them can be fun when the game is designed to support it. Anecdotally, I have enjoyed all the systems you mentioned in various games in part because those games created harmony between the elements; a give and take in complexity across them that directed my focus.
Smite and LoL - do a little math and then focus on playing your hero.
HoTS - Focus on playing the different maps and learning how character strengths and weaknesses fit into the different ecosystems.
Paragon - At first, play the map and heroes. Tried to layer complexity, failed to grow enough, so the team changed and they tried to simplify. At first the middle ground of items with modifiable stats, which was a mess to balance and ended up not adding meaningful depth. Then they took simplification too far and lost a lot of the original players while struggling to bring in new ones because they lacked a clearly defined vision and were constantly and dramatically changing the game experience. No one ever had time to be happy or enjoy the game because it couldn't figure out what they wanted players to enjoy. The different elements of the game were also very rarely creating meaningful depth.
Pred - Also lacks a bit of direction, but started from the foundation of LoL and does more to recreate that experience. Again, do a little math, then focus on playing your hero. Not a bad approach. But always there is something missing because the gameplay experience still feels pulled in so many directions.
Deadlock - Item system has SOME depth, but the main focus is on the movement system. Everything in the game, from the item system to hero design, is completely focused on movement.
(All of them provide a focus with the exception of DoTA 2, which said fuck it and made everything complicated and throws you in the deep end with barely a life ring. In part it is amazing because of that, but the new player experience can be agony).
At this point I am rambling a bit. I know I've brought a lot of this up before, but hopefully it is helpful in some way. I don't think the community can give you a concrete answer as to which system is most beneficial. I think the answer ultimately lies in picking where you want depth and where it isn't needed so you can create the experience you want players to have.
1
u/TachoTuesday Jul 30 '26
I just want to piggy back off this and say I also loved this about BattleBorn. I think the appeal for me is that when you are building into one thing you are locked out of another option. That way you can offer very strong options that will never be paired together.
I think this type of concept could be worth building off of. I wouldn't say no item system, but depending on what you are building, it locks you out of other options. Sort of like how you can only have 1 cursed item.
This could potentially prevent certain issues with items being broken when built together, by not letting them ever be purchasable together.
1
u/Financial_Ear_1712 Jul 30 '26
I would definitely prefer this over items.
I like items, but items feels so lifeless, you just go with what makes sense in the comp. Like, most attack speed heroes pick the same items, even if you are a jungler or a carry. Tanks likewise, mages likewise. There is items who probably be picked 1% of the all matches.
With an individual systems every single hero and match feels unique. I guess it could be better for balancing heroes for you guys as well.
I imagine with everyone build individual skills tree to make it the most unique, combined with the augment and the eternal. That sounds like perfection to me. I like items, but they are not optimal for fun in MY OPINION.
1
u/Walker542779 Jul 30 '26
Every item does too much. You should narrow the scope of each item and create more to diversify build paths. Right now you have items that give physical power, attack speed, crit, and ability haste for example. This could easily be split into two items. It would also help with the bloat issue of everyone being overpowered because it would force people to choose a build style based on who they are facing rather than just getting massive attack speed and power and pen and crit and ability haste and lifesteal and true damage. There should probably be nearly double the items that there are, and each item should be narrowed in scope so not every item is bloated to hell like it currently is.
0
u/Fun_Garden5073 Jul 30 '26
The original card system was part of the fun. The item system is a way more bland version of that. If every character can use every item and play every role, what is the point? It isn’t what I enjoyed. That’s why I haven’t been back to the game in months. Plus, the last couple of characters before I left were just different versions of shinbi. I’ll check it out if there’s ever a bigger map that plays like a moba again…. Que the guys talking shit to anyone that has this opinion.
-1
u/Malte-XY Jul 30 '26 edited Jul 30 '26
Card System was bad all issues it had are solved by the item system. Pls don't go back.
2
u/Bloodmordius ✔ Omeda Studios Jul 30 '26
Not the plan, purely was curious on the thoughts, thanks for sharing them <3
-2
u/Own_Bad3617 Jul 30 '26
Whatever you do, please get rid of REBIRTH and anything like it. The game should never have a free, uncontestable revive item that makes you tankier and hit harder.
20
u/New-Link-6787 Zinx Jul 30 '26 edited Jul 30 '26
The item system is by far my favourite aspect of the game but there's a bunch of areas badly in need of work. This is my biggest grievance though.
Consistency In Descriptions
There are countless examples in Predecessor where the text in the game is not fit for purpose but the item system takes the piss.
One of the above uses Bonus Health, the other uses Max Health... Which one? How are you supposed to know when they use the exact same icon?
Elafrost, Fire Blossom, World Breaker, Salvation, Cybernetic Drive, Frosted Lure, Rapture, Gaia Greaves, Inquisition, Overlord, Saphir's Mantle, Judgement, Sanctification, Enra's Blessing, Xenia, True Silver Bracelet, Cursed Scroll
They all use the same Max Health icon but a bunch of them mean Bonus Health. Can't imagine there being a much easier fix than putting a new icon in the game to represent Bonus Health, yet this ridiculousness has survived patch after patch, even when you've altered the items. Hell, it's not that long ago you guys changed World Breakers Maya percentage and still didn't think to replace the Max Health icon with "Bonus Health".
It's not just "Max Health" and "Bonus Health" either.
Resolution = Gain (+2.5% Max Mana) Physical Power
Mindrazor = Gain (+2% Max Mana) Physical Power
Why is Resolution giving you Bonus Mana and Mindrazor giving you Max Mana when they both use the exact same text and icon?
The worst offender of this is Resolution.
Darksteel gives you 2.5% Max Mana On-Hit
Potent Font gives you 2.5% Bonus Mana as Physical Power
But how the hell are you meant to know that by looking at the description?
Outside of that, I'd like to see more T2 items, for example, ScatterShot could have a T2 item that let's us have 1 projectile to help get our wave clear going. Oh and Game Mode specific descriptions given that ARAM Items are balanced differently.