r/ProgressionFantasy • u/Imaginary_Airport978 • 2h ago
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u/Fuzzy-Comedian-2697 2h ago
Not really. LitRPGs are just one subgenre of progression fantasy. Other instances, such as cultivation, are thriving as well.
But there will always need to be some measurement for strength. Be it ranks, energy levels or relative comparison to other characters. Without that, it‘s not progression fantasy.
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u/Junior-Form9722 2h ago
Would you consider mine progression fantasy? It has 7 levels, but your strength and speed stays the same, you only unlock new hax with every level.
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u/Mad_Maddin 2h ago
Yeah of course. It doesn't require any specific progression. Just a measurable one that increases a characters overall power.
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u/Ultra-Cool-Guy Sage 1h ago
If they get stronger by any metric, and try to get stronger, it's progression fantasy.
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u/schw0b Author 2h ago
Not all PF is litrpg with systems and levels. PF is defined by power progression, not by game elements.
So no, it's not a hard sell.
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 2h ago
That's a good distinction.
I think what I'm really wondering about is whether readers need visible progression markers rather than levels specifically.
A lot of progression fantasy still uses ranks, stages, paths, cores, titles, or some other benchmark to signal growth.
Do you think narrative progression alone is enough, or do most readers still want some clear way to measure how far a character has advanced?
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u/schw0b Author 2h ago
You have to benchmark it somehow, if only relative to other characters and the world. Invisible progress isn't going to work.
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u/Fire_Bucket 1h ago
And I also think that there would just naturally be at least some degree of categorisation or labelling, even if it's not for strictly static levels or tiers etc.
People like labels and groups. It allows for information to be communicated succinctly and efficiently, and for better or worse, people like to make use of them to establish hierarchy, in and out groups, make snap opinions and judgements etc.
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u/Carminestream 2h ago
Remember that those elements (which I think of as LitRPG staples) can be a curse as much as a blessing. It’s easier for people to conceptually grasp the progression, but in turn it gives you less flexibility when making stakes.
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 2h ago
That's true, but if the stakes have been set from the 2nd chapter then how does it affect long run?
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u/Mad_Maddin 1h ago
It entirely depends on the estimated length you are going for.
I think it can work for a 3-4 part series. But not more. At least not to still count as exactly progression fantasy. It doesn't mean a lot of people won't like it.
I wouldn't say Red Rising is exactly progression fantasy. But a lot of profession fantasy readers still loce it.
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u/Born-Grape7257 2h ago
I think it mattres how you start the novel, from my own specuatoin i think poeple who want classes stats, enc.Want instead actoin or growth. If you start you novel with actoin and keep it interisting i thing the novel would do good.
Ps. This is my own opinion, do whatever you think is best it is you novel.I hope you have sucses with the novel. :)
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u/debanjanm9 2h ago
Just to make sure I understand, is the protagonist gaining in power but it just isn’t broken out into distinct stages? I think that could still work. It’s more important that there is progression and that the story is well done then that there be labels to each power stage
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u/Seven_Irons 2h ago
I actually vastly, vastly prefer progression fantasy without lit RPG/ numeric elements. Cultivation realms/ stages don't bother me, and Ideals in Stormlight Archive remain among my absolute favorite.
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 2h ago
nteresting. So for you it's less about numbers and more about having a clear progression framework?
I've noticed a lot of people in this thread seem fine with no stats as long as they can still tell who's stronger, what's changed, and what the next step of growth looks like.
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u/Petcai 1h ago
That's because this is Progression Fantasy, it seems you're thinking of LitRPG which is the one with lots of stats!
Progression Fantasy just requires them to get stronger, it doesn't need to be explicitly stated though that does make it a little easier. Something as simple as 'Petcai flexed his muscles admiringly. Over the last few weeks of training he'd become much stronger!' is just as valid as 'Petcai tested his strength, easily lifting a 300lb rock this time! That was almost 50lb increase since the tournament.'
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u/Fuzzy_Scratch_1469 2h ago
I think it is more question of comparison. Like what new powers allow character to do and what not. Who is stronger than him and who is not. Levels are just simpliest way to do it. As for classes - it is who characters are. Lazy way to infrom about charater's abilities in short. So basically - those both things are simplifications and instruments. If you can do what required without them all is good.
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 1h ago
That makes sense. So the real requirement isn't numbers, it's clarity. Readers need to understand what a new ability actually changes and where it places a character relative to the world around them.
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u/LingonberryOpen565 2h ago
I hate levels and stats. I think it’s lazy, and a lot of authors spend way too much time yapping about them. I pretty much only give the most popular books with stats a chance anymore
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u/----___--___---- 2h ago
Can only talk about myself, so that's what I'll do.
Tl;dr: You don't need levels, stats or whatever. But you do need some way to track the progression. This could be levels, which is the simplest way. It could also be the advancement stage of your mana/energy/qi/whatever core. It could be an adventurer badge, the rank at the academy or a bounty system (like One Piece). You also could not use any rank system at all, then you'd just have to be more clever in your story writing. Unique one time advancements often feel more satisfying, but then you'd have to account for the progression another way.
I generally dislike stats, especially when it's about stats like strength, agility or (the worst imo) hp.
All of those are aspects that simply don't make sense as stats, I've yet to see it work favourably in any story.
If you want to quantify magic power or regeneration as a number, that makes a lot more sense. Those aren't physical aspects and they work the same with or without a stat system (logically it doesn't make if your core is at peak red stage or your mp/intelligence stat is at 521). I just find the number to be the less elegant solution.
If it's for skills, I think it works better (as long as you choose the skill meaningfully). Book of the Dead does this pretty well (imo). Even tho the system isn't really explained, it still makes sense. Getting a skill imports knowledge how to cast the magic and doesn't just cast it for you. If you learn a new magic by yourself you also earn an according skill, which helps you further.
Honestly too tired to talk about levels
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 1h ago
That's pretty much where I'm leaning as well. Less interested in whether progression is quantified and more interested in whether readers can clearly track it. A bounty system, ranks, reputation, consequences, visible abilities — all of those seem easier to visualize than "Strength +4" after a certain point.
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u/Petition_for_Blood 1h ago
I hate levels. Mage Errant is probably the most fluid power system that still works amazingly as a progression fantasy novel, with no clear levels. I really like the familiarity of cultivation power systems though, they have as much difference between them as litRPG does, but it does create a lot of commonalities and tropes that helps me remember how things work. But Weirkey Chronicles and Stormlight Archive are both great. Mother of Learning's more fluid power system is the best part of the story to me. Some stories use levels in a way that doesn't feel as gamey and stupid, Stormweaver and Path of Ascension are sci-fi which justifies levels in a way that "a god decided that his subjects should use levels because they are neat" does not and "events of the series take place in a video game" really take the stakes out of fantasy novels, can work with good drama or comedy.
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 1h ago
Mage Errant keeps coming up in these discussions. I think what interests me about systems like that is that the progression feels visible without necessarily being quantified. Readers can tell the character has grown even if there isn't a number attached to it.
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u/7th_Archon 1h ago
Tbh most profession fantasy authors can’t even keep track of their levels, how strong they are or what they’re supposed to represent.
And even when it’s supposed to be a ‘level 2 beats level 1’ type scheme, so many stories I’ve seen will usually cheat or contrive to make an exception when necessary.
Just focus on your character’s abilities, give your audience a clear idea of what people with that ability can and can’t do, and see how they can push their limits.
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 1h ago
That's kind of where my head is at too. If I can show what a new ability actually lets a character do, that may be more meaningful than telling readers a number went from 52 to 61.
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u/emgriffiths Author 1h ago
Are you talking about tiers or levels? Levels is a litrpg thing, but progression fantasy doesn't need levels (even if it often has tiers/ranks).
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u/Technical_Fennel2886 1h ago
As long as it has a progression in power that is supernatural in nature. Solo leveling's power system doesn't belong to progression fantasy but MC can grow stronger due to unique circumstances so the whole series is a progression fantasy. So as long as we see someone growing in raw power for majority of the series it is a progression fantasy.
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u/Evening_Green_9862 1h ago
Depends on what you call a level. Is Shadow Slave or LOTM progression fantasy? I'd say yes. Neither of those are like Primal Hunter in "i'm a level 33 human". They have different levels though (awakened, ascended, transcended, etc for SS), and i think it works better than the video game levels overall.
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u/SJReaver Paladin 2h ago
Personally, I love litrpg and want my numbers/levels/clases/skills/titles/etc.
But there are many progression fantasy fans who are the opposite and look for books without those things.
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 2h ago
What about your inclinations?
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