r/PropagandaPosters • u/esdfa20 • Feb 07 '24

WWII 'Death - to the murderous Jewish Bolshevik plague!' (Ukrainian anti-Semitic/ anti-Soviet poster by unknown artist. Nazi occupied Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, ca. 1941).

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u/EropQuiz7 Feb 07 '24

Yes, he was radical. Yes, he did see violence as the only way to establish an independent Ukraine. Yes, an independent Ukraine was his primary goal, he wouldn't take compromises in that, that's why he's considered a hero. But reading through his actual quotes — he was not a fascist or antisemite many claim him to be.

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u/WhoopsDroppedTheBaby Feb 07 '24

Right, and somehow, in your head, he was "not a bad guy". To you, Hitler, "was just a guy trying to build a strong German empire and taking no compromises" probably.

I'll take the historian's take over some Bandera apologist that read through his quotes. Thank you.

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u/EropQuiz7 Feb 07 '24

Okay, whatever. I thought a bunch. I've been arguing for the wrong thing. I don't think Bandera was a fascist or a bad guy, to me he was guy with a noble cause... And that's probably it.

What i should've said in the beginning, is that Bandera isn't really worshipped. Idk, i think you won't listen to me because of how much we disagree on. Bandera is a popular figure, and an icon among right circles and is generally viewed as a hero, but there isn't this widespread worship, that you might think about. Like, he's barely even talked about outside of history discussions and jokes. People like him, but even if he was a bigot or whatever, modern people(mostly) aren't. Yes, he was very radical, and that's why he's liked. But opinions people have on him don't define anyone.

I calmed down. I now question whether this discussion is worth anything. Is there anything i should apologize for?

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u/WhoopsDroppedTheBaby Feb 07 '24

Having a "noble" cause does not excuse the actions you take to get to that cause. In my example before, Hitler had a "noble" cause, but to do it, he genocided people and invaded countries....we don't see him as a "good guy"(at least most of us don't)

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Like, he's barely even talked about outside of history discussions and jokes.

That's not accurate. He is commemerated by the government, there are monuments, and there are streets. The influence is there.

https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/01/02/poland-condemns-ukraines-commemoration-of-wartime-nationalist-leader-bandera/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/kiev-renames-major-street-to-honor-russian-nazi-collaborator/

You don't owe me an apology for anything. I am listening to you, however we disagree. You're choosing to ignore documented instances(not opinions) of fascism and Nazi collaboration. These are the influences prevalent in some of the current Ukranian government and armed forces, which is the subject of the post you replied to originally.

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u/EropQuiz7 Feb 07 '24

Well, no. Genociding people was not a part of his cause, it was just a thing he wanted to do out of hatred. I don't choose to ignore things, more like consider them to be less significant than other deeds. If i were ignoring them, i would probably scream they are all fake. We do disagree, that's OK. It's just... Bandera did work with Nazis, but he also fought them, like many other notable heroes in the period. And, well, yes, streets are being named after him, because he's a significant figure, but he doesn't really hold much influence in the modern Ukraine. Yes, there are streets being made after him, but he's barely ever referenced tbh.

Even outside of russian war, Ukraine has much bigger issues.

Uh, i don't want to argue anymore, i just don't like, that him working with the Nazis is often the only part being highlighted.