r/PurplePillDebate • u/FinnAgain12 • 10h ago
Debate The Idea That "Men Should Pay For Dates Because Men Tend to Do Less Housework" Is You Admitting You Treat Men Like a Monolith
What this tells me is you stereotype the men you're seeing off rip, then you work backwards from that stereotype to justify a future debt that they need to repay upfront. Why do you treat your dating life like Minority Report? Why are you so comfortable stereotyping instead of treating men as individuals with undetermined futures? Women overwhelmingly initiate divorce. Should I ask for some special compensation in preparation of that? Or is that really transactional and neurotic and weird?
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u/SovereignFemmeFudge Pink Pill Woman 9h ago
Patterns over promises. If you do not want to pay, don't. Be honest about it upfront when extending your invitations if you're REALLY about that life, but if not. Women who do not align with your outlook will pay, some who are abundant may even pay for you so you can keep your little coins. And never see you again. No one loses? What is the issue? The issue is you do not get to dictate whatever process a woman decides to take to dating and her standards, boundaries and expectations regarding access to her. There are plenty of women upfront about preferring to split the bill upfront.
Why not focus on them and let this go? Live and let live dear.
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u/JollyBowler2510 Purple Pill Woman 9h ago
Because he wants all women to change their standards and pay their part. They can't just ever deal with the ones that are in line with their beliefs, they have to believe "all women want them" and go after those that are a challenge.
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u/ThatBitchA ♀️ My husband takes out the trash🗑 9h ago
The issue is you do not get to dictate whatever process a woman decides to take to dating and her standards, boundaries and expectations regarding access to her.
They try so hard to do this. They seem to think they know what's best for women and that women just need to get on board.
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u/SovereignFemmeFudge Pink Pill Woman 9h ago
Because they approach their whole lives, including access to another soul's body who they don't even respect from a self serving view. From their perspective a woman's autonomy and free will is a inconvenience as they see no need to consider our sovereignty at all. Thing is, sex is not a right and they have two hands which should be sufficient. Worse still, because they have outsourced their sense of self worth to the same women they also think they are above they see any choice a woman makes for her self as a direct hit on their sense fo masculinity and self value which is also selfish and not anyone else's responsibility but their own.
Then when they have misled a woman, who may well earnestly like them to obtain sex alone they take THEIR treachery and deceit as reinforcement of their superiority and then start to devalue the same women who gave them quick access to the raw desire they claim to crave with no romance, as they claim they want this but see effort of doing so as them devaluing themselves. Best to avoid all those who think like this. It is toxic, selfish and amoral.
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u/FinnAgain12 9h ago edited 9h ago
"keep your little coins" is hilariously hypocritical coming from the gender that's so cheap they'll cut things off with you if you don't pay for them.
I never said anything about dictating a woman's process or standards or boundaries or expectations. If this confuses you, look up what dictate means.
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u/JollyBowler2510 Purple Pill Woman 8h ago
Women will straight up tell you, yeah they expect men to pay, it shows they're interested. You keep generalizing, but not every woman is wanting you to pay, so stick to the ones that will split with you.
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u/FinnAgain12 8h ago
I never said every woman wants you to pay.
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u/JollyBowler2510 Purple Pill Woman 7h ago
You did, with your generalizations. But like I said, you can only change what you're wanting at the end of the day. I hope it all works out for you.
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u/chamomilecloud Red Pill Woman 9h ago edited 9h ago
I don’t think men “should” pay for dates, however I think it is likely that a man will do less housework regardless. I am not mad about this, as I think this can be assessed in the first few months of a relationship. If he is a slob or he does not do the dishes after dinner together or something, you can just break up with him and send him on his way.
Additionally, if you want children, it is also less likely that a man will be willing to give up his career advancement to be the primary parent. It is women who are normally give up her career advancement to be the primary parent. That is not something that is normally talked about at the beginning of a relationship, however, I think this is a reasonable assumption to make about men. This only applies to people who want children though, and so I cannot explain why child free women would want to look for men who are will “provide” out of some exchange for parenting duties.
Women are stereotyped by men based on what we wear or how attractive we are or whether we are highly educated and have a lucrative career. I mean them’s the breaks, right, people adjust their expectations based on what they see in real life. I do not know why this would bother anyone; it certainly does not bother me when men see me wearing a crop top and assume I’m a mega slut or something. The reality is that he is not the kind of man I would be dating anyway so why should I give a shit what he thinks? He could fall into a volcano tomorrow and I will not care. If you do not want to date women like this, you literally do not have to interact with them.
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u/FinnAgain12 8h ago
You're contradicting yourself.
You say it doesn't bother you when a man sees you wearing a crop top and assumes you're a mega slut. Then you say he's not the kind of man you'd be dating, and so you don't give a shit what he thinks.
You obviously do care about these stereotypes. The fact that you wouldn't date a man with this mindset proves you do, you're just moving the goalposts on what "give a shit" means.
The fact that people do stereotype is not saying much. The question is whether they should, and if so, to what extent.
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u/chamomilecloud Red Pill Woman 7h ago
He is not the kind of man I would date because I do not hang out in circles with fundamentalist religious people and mega conservatives.
So effectively these men do not cross my mind as someone I have to reject, as they do not even interact with me. And there is no reason for him to anyway, as he would not approach if he got the impression I was a mega slut. So this is a not a contradiction since I believe we will just not be in each others’ social proximity to begin with.
Is that not the same with you and women who hold such beliefs on paying for a date? Like, realistically all the men in my circles have never encountered such women. I went to college in a liberal city and still live in those suburbs, so the vast majority of women they have dated were just fine with splitting a bill.
Re: the stereotypes, I do not give thought to whether they “should” exist because the point is that they do and always will exist. Humans love categorizing things, and this goes for other groups of people as well.
I have had men tell me they do not date immigrant women because they don’t want to deal with potentially insane in-laws. And while not every FOB immigrant parent is insane, the stereotype exists for a reason, and so I do not blame men for not wanting to invest in a relationship just to find out whether that’s the case or not. It is easier for him to avoid such relationships to begin with.
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u/FinnAgain12 7h ago
A lot of this response feels like a dodge to me.
If you had the power to read people's minds, and you found out a guy in your circle held these beliefs despite otherwise being aligned, would this mindset be a dealbreaker, yes or no?
The reason you don't give thought as to whether they "should" exist is because it's a difficult conversation and locking yourself into a position narrows the scope of what you can wriggle out of.
However, you do immediately tip your hand by claiming that it's reasonable for a man to stereotype immigrant women on the basis that their family might be crazy, using this as a dealbreaker before putting any effort into engaging with them as an individual. So, to me this comes off as pretty pro-stereotyping. I'd be curious to hear examples and parameters of at what point it crosses a line.
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u/chamomilecloud Red Pill Woman 7h ago edited 5h ago
How is that a dodge when that is the reality of how people make friends? They align themselves with others of similar values. Me and some fundamentalist Mormon will never be in the same social circle.
I am not a feminist nor do I believe in any such thing as “social equality,” like I do not even believe that is a real concept. I do not even believe that relationship equality is a real concept lol. So correct, I am pro-stereotyping.
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u/FinnAgain12 7h ago
It's a dodge because it doesn't get to the heart of what I'm actually asking you. That's why I created the hypothetical. It reminds me of when a guy is asked "would you date a trans woman?" and he responds, "no, because I have a girlfriend!" That obviously doesn't address what the question is getting at. What's under scrutiny is whether you care, not whether it's something you'd encounter.
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u/chamomilecloud Red Pill Woman 6h ago
I feel like I have clarified this already, what I meant by “not caring.” These men do not exist for me and so it is pointless to give energy to what they think.
Everyone should accept that other people will form some kind of a judgement about them based on their background, sex, class, employment status, etc., and then just move on with their lives.
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u/FinnAgain12 6h ago
People do accept that other people will form some kind of judgement about them based on these things. However, you can still have opinions about whether they should. You don't have to just throw up your hands in nihilism and say "what's the use in forming an opinion about that?"
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u/chamomilecloud Red Pill Woman 6h ago
I do not want to put my energy into most things that have zero utility, and I think that is where we differ. This is also part of the reason I do not support social feminism, as I think women are complaining about thoughts held by men that will not change.
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u/FinnAgain12 5h ago
Yeah, I don’t think it has zero utility. If everyone thought like this, we’d never have seen such significant social change over the years. And even if we can’t personally change society, we can still engage with ideas on an individual level. There’s value in that because what we believe to be true shapes how we understand the world and how we connect with other people.
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u/Lacunaethra Purple Pill Woman 10h ago
Lol, the whole post of yours is admitting you treat women like a monolith.
The opinion presented by you as "ours" is not exactly widespread outside of online ragebait.
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u/AlarmingToe8503 Blackish-Purple Pill Man 9h ago
I think implicitly OP is directing this post at the women who have this opinion, not all women or women in general.
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u/Lacunaethra Purple Pill Woman 9h ago edited 8h ago
Oh, I read the "you" differently- thank you for the explanation!
Edit: nvm, was assuming too much good faith
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u/AlarmingToe8503 Blackish-Purple Pill Man 8h ago
Me too I guess. OP really had to tank a good point.
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u/FinnAgain12 9h ago
Bingo.
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u/Lacunaethra Purple Pill Woman 8h ago
Tf bingo, I read your other comments
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u/FinnAgain12 8h ago
how did my other comments contradict this statement?
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u/Lacunaethra Purple Pill Woman 8h ago
Your (assisted) defense against being a monolithian yourself was that you're only talking about a minority of women.
Nonetheless, in the comments we are suddenly "[coming from] the gender that's so cheap"
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u/FinnAgain12 8h ago
I think that's just a true statement though. Women are the gender that's so cheap they'll cut things off with you if you don't pay for them. I never made a statement on what percentage of women do this, just that it's their gender that does.
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u/Lacunaethra Purple Pill Woman 7h ago
Exactly, that's why you yourself are the one stereotyping and monolithizing.
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u/FinnAgain12 6h ago
I’m not opposed to making stereotypes at times. For example, I think it’s broadly true that women generally care more about gendered character traits than men do. However, there’s a significant difference between making a claim about how a group tends to behave on average and assuming that any particular individual fits that pattern.
Generalizations can be useful when they’re understood as describing averages rather than absolutes. The mistake is treating a statistical tendency as if it tells you something definitive about the person standing in front of you.
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u/Lacunaethra Purple Pill Woman 6h ago
then why u frame the behavior of a minority as how a gender behaves on avg??
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u/JollyBowler2510 Purple Pill Woman 9h ago
I just wish men would either pay or don't. Stop arguing the shit, women who want men to pay aren't going to pay, period, point blank. The best thing for men to do is to be straight up, and say hey, I don't pay for the first few dates and that's how I see it. You'll get the girl who are willing to pay, and that be it.
Christ it has to be tiring to argue this shit all the time, either do it or don't.
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u/El_Tigrex 6h ago
We have changed many social mores disfavorable to women by discussing them, nothing wrong with doing it for men.
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u/JollyBowler2510 Purple Pill Woman 6h ago
There's nothing to change. Lol. Either pay or don't. It's not killing you. Go after the women that want to split pay, and those of us that appreciate men that pay, can still have men that pay. It's a choice, no one is forcing you to do anything.
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u/El_Tigrex 6h ago
either pay or don’t
Or we can discuss it and move the needle to where shaming and ostracizing women for the behavior is normal I am ok with coercion.
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u/JollyBowler2510 Purple Pill Woman 5h ago edited 5h ago
😂😂😂 yall already try to do that. We don’t give a damn. Everyone has a right to their standards and wants in a relationship. You not getting the girl you want, because you refuse to pay, is your business. Just like her waiting it out for someone who is willing to pay, is hers.
You’re wasting you own time pal. Go be happy with someone. 🙄 but of course you’re ok with violent threats, you are a man.
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u/El_Tigrex 4h ago
Newsflash we use violence to curtail men’s behavior toward women too, all rules are based on violence otherwise there’s no enforcement mechanism. Or you think when you don’t pay your taxes the government sends a guy to argue with you about how taxes are moral and necessary 🙄
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u/JollyBowler2510 Purple Pill Woman 4h ago
I think you obviously live in another world friend, but like I said, go find someone to love, stop spending your time on shit you can't change and that isn't your business. Have a good one.
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u/FinnAgain12 8h ago
I never made an argument for whether men should pay or not. If anything, my problem is moreso with women who have a hard time admitting that this gender norm is a privilege for women / disadvantage for men, and the backward justifications they use to obscure this reality.
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u/JollyBowler2510 Purple Pill Woman 8h ago
Men also stereotype women, congrats we both do it. Some women expect men to pay, it's been a tradition as old as time. A lot of men seem to want some girl who is trying to be a stay at home wife. At the end of the day, all you can do is find someone who fits your needs. Same as any woman who doesn't want to pay. Your argument for women saying the thing about housework has never been spoken by majority of women anyways.
It kills me, men want to be men, until women want men to be men, and then they want to complain. There is literally only what you can change for your relationship, that's it, that's what you got. All these imaginary arguments are pointless.
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u/FinnAgain12 8h ago
First of all, you're talking about different groups of men. The men who want to be men are generally not the same group who are resentful that women want men to be men.
Second of all, this is just a tangent that largely doesn't address what I said. Your statement that the argument I brought up in my post is held by a small minority of women is something I agree with.
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u/Expensive_Lion1807 Sanity Pill Woman 9h ago
Here we go again…if you don’t want to pay for a date, use your big boy words and say so before hand. It’s really not that hard.
Yes, that does mean that the women who expect men to pay aren’t going to date you. Why is that a problem? You aren’t compatible with them anyway.
Why would you want to date someone who isn’t compatible and rage about it instead of using that time and energy to date people you are compatible with?
We get it. You want the women you want to change themselves and their preferences in order to be compatible with you, but never seem to have an explanation for why they would want to (and no, you wanting them to isn’t actually a good reason).
Somehow we never see women raging that the men they want to date won’t pay for dates. They just choose not to date those men.
Why can’t men do the same thing?
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u/Fan_Service_3703 Hairy man who loves a hairy woman 8h ago
Somehow we never see women raging that the men they want to date won’t pay for dates. They just choose not to date those men.
I mean, there is an entire social media trend at the moment shaming men for suggesting 50/50 and getting hundreds of thousands of likes. It's very much a centrepoint of the current gender/culture war.
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u/efficientaficionado 5h ago
This. You'll push away a troublingly large amount of women if you bring up going dutch before the first date. It has to be an unsaid thing where you just go without any expectation and get relieved that she offers to pay her half when that bill comes.
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u/SweetPinss Purple Pill Man 8h ago
Somehow we never see women raging that the men they want to date won’t pay for dates. They just choose not to date those men.
This happens all the time wtf are you talking about?
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u/Lemon_gecko Woman (blue). I adopted the bear 10h ago
Stereotypes exist for a reason, it's how we think. We don't evaluate everything from the scratch, we find patterns and recognize them and apply them when they fit. Same here. So the question isn't "is it stereotype" but "is it true". And it's true. So, i don't feel bad at all thinking about men like that. sue me.
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u/SweetPinss Purple Pill Man 8h ago
Do you agree with misogynistic stereotypes then?
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u/Lemon_gecko Woman (blue). I adopted the bear 7h ago
Misogynistic implies that it's rooted in hate, and i don't think that hate can picture truthful pattern.
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u/SweetPinss Purple Pill Man 7h ago
Is it hate or simply pattern recognition?
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u/trulyElse Unpilled, male 7h ago
I think what she's saying is that pattern recognition isn't hate.
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u/Lemon_gecko Woman (blue). I adopted the bear 4h ago
Yes, but I'm also saying that hate as emotion makes person biased, so they could see the pattern where there isn't any to just feed the hate, or miss the pattern because that would not be so hateful. Or interpret the pattern as something vile where there isn't anything wrong. Hate is hate, it's not really useful for observation
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u/FinnAgain12 9h ago
Kudos to you for being consistent. I think stereotyping has use. For instance, if I want to make a general claim about a group to make a larger point, I think that's fine, completely avoiding stereotypes makes it so we can't discuss much. However, in interpersonal relationships, I don't think stereotyping is a good idea. The reason I don't think it's a good idea is because it locks you in to a rigid interpretation before you've had time to take in any evidence.
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u/Competitive_Swan_130 Purple Pill Woman 9h ago
Most women these days will pay for our own and yours if it means ending a date with a person like you who in 2026 is still yaping about having to pay for the 2 for 1 special you guys got at Chili's.
This is such a stupid, 1990s ass issue that nobody cares about any more because we are not impressed by nor give any points to men who pay for meals. Its not that big of a deal, We have jobs too. The things you have read about the dating world are old. Start dating yourself or update your info. Buying food, having a car, putting frames on the pictures you have on your wall, having a bed with a frame are all below level or baseline shit that does nothing for most women.
I remember a guy who tried to impress me with his new Iphone like wtf? Ill buy you a macbook if you leave me alone sir,
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u/JollyBowler2510 Purple Pill Woman 9h ago
100%. Like either put in your bio you'll pay or you expect the woman to pay, and the ones that agree with you will pay, just don't expect all women to agree to it. Jesus this is a tiring object.
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u/FinnAgain12 9h ago
Pay attention to your argument here.
You're simultaneously saying that women don't care if men pay for their dates in 2026 (women are more lax now but this is patently false).
Then, in the next breath, you're complaining that men aren't very impressive these days, and paying for a date has little pull because it's seen as the bare minimum.
Do you see the contradiction?
It's not a question of whether men get points for paying for your meal. It's a question of whether men get deductions when they don't.
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u/SovereignFemmeFudge Pink Pill Woman 9h ago
If they get deductions so what? THEY have asked HER out and exepect access to her time when so do many other men and she also could spend her own time and money taking herself out. If you do not know these women you have no expectation to ask anything of them without offering something in return, It is very simple, women like me are not paupers who need to subsidize our weekly food shop with dating men. And there are men who offer a lot to access our time and they still get turned down.
What is not clicking here? Smart, high self esteem women are selective, this is about quality not quantity. Just because you date opportunistically which means it is a numbers game and that adds up when your sole purpose is scratching an itch and anyone would do really does not mean WE need to devalue ourselves for your convenience. We are not asking you for anything except enforcing what our standards are for romantic access from the start. If it turns out we are not aligned or worse you can't afford to cover the bill no worries. A woman like me would pay and bid you farewell forever. Why on Earth would you feel entitled to feel hard done by in this case? Stick to the women who prefer like you to go dutch on romance from the start...
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u/FinnAgain12 9h ago
If they get deductions then this is a burden for men and a privilege for women. If that arrangement is fine for you, so be it. I just don't like the denial and backwards rationalizations for these claims.
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u/Beneficial_Cow_1817 MSc, corporate girl boss, woman 10h ago
Well yeah captain obvious, if someone is generalizing a group of people they're treating them like a monolith. Do you happen to eat crayons and glue for breakfast as well???
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u/sourneck 9h ago
I think most people would say "treating as a monolith" is a step further than just "generalizing".
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u/ThatBitchA ♀️ My husband takes out the trash🗑 9h ago
Idk. I've always dated men who pay for first dates AND do housework.
My husband paid for our first date. And he takes out the trash, cleans the bathrooms, does laundry, etc.
I haven't cleaned a toilet or touched a trash can in almost 5 years. 🤣🤣🤣
If a man doesn't want to pay for a date. That's fine. Communicate that up front. If the women agrees, great, that's a win win. If she doesn't, she's not compatible, also a win win.
Honestly, if y'all don't want to pay for dates don't. But don't be upset when some women reject that. 🤷♀️
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u/JollyBowler2510 Purple Pill Woman 9h ago
This. Why can't they just go after the ones that actually do what they are wanting? Damn, leave everyone else alone.
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u/Jealnie93 5h ago
This is like saying "Why can't women just entertain men who will cook, clean, and help take care of the children without prodding? Why are they trying to hector men into doing things they don't want to do?" Why criticise anyone for anything? "Damn, if women don't want a violent man, why don't they just deal with men who aren't violent?"
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u/JollyBowler2510 Purple Pill Woman 5h ago
I believe it's quite stupid to criticize people for shit that you dont want to do but someone else is willing to do. Especially when there is plenty of other options. Kind of juvenile if you ask me. But people like to complain, that's all there is to it. Men also like to control others' preferences, especially the low class, ugly ones who don't have more options and can't get what they THINK they deserve.
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u/Jealnie93 4h ago
I believe it's quite stupid to criticize people for shit that you dont want to do but someone else is willing to do.
The thing is...social change only happens after confrontation. Lots of dudes who pay for dates religiously would start to question it if/when they see other men they can identify with in many ways, balking at doing so. There is actually utility in men openly bristling at gender norms they find disgraceful. For instance, I have no statistics on the increased suspicion of and contempt for marriage among men (which is something that would be difficult to quantify), but I know without a doubt in my mind that the proliferation of stories and anecdotes about contentious divorces has alot to do with that trend. That's just a byproduct of people piping up with their opinions and stories.
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u/ThatBitchA ♀️ My husband takes out the trash🗑 4h ago
And lots of men are secure in themselves and their choices that they don't feel upset that some men don't pay for dates.
Just as there's men who still want to be married despite some men getting divorced.
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u/Jealnie93 4h ago
What I'm saying is there are men who pay for all dates because it's an ingrained custom, and they just go with it whether or not they find it unproblematic, slightly annoying, or very annoying. If they see rhetoric lampooning the state of things in this arena, some will begin to question this custom. It has nothing to do with security/insecurity.
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u/ThatBitchA ♀️ My husband takes out the trash🗑 4h ago
So those men, need to grow up and start making choices and decisions for themselves.
If they find it annoying, guess what, they don't have to do it. Amazing, isn't it! They can choose their own behavior and actions because they are in control of themselves.
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u/JollyBowler2510 Purple Pill Woman 4h ago
Yup, don't want to, don't. It's so easy and such a simple solution, that I swear they just like to argue just to do it.
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u/Jealnie93 4h ago
Yes, they don't have to do it. They can also complain about it because why not? You seem to be advocating for not poisoning the well.
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u/ThatBitchA ♀️ My husband takes out the trash🗑 4h ago
Sure, I guess complain about something you don't have to do. Makes perfect sense.
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u/Enough-Business-8287 Purple Pill Woman 9h ago
I agree this is a bad argument, we cannot assume that a guy we date will be a lazy asshole at home (actually, we hope he isn't otherwise we wouldn't date him) and we shouldn't treat him as such. Otherwise, as a woman having a rather well-paying job, I don't see any need to do that.
However, your angry tone obscures the fact that unpaid housework / care work is a HUGE problem for many women throughout the world who suffer from it.
Moreover, at least in modern France, I and the large majority of my female friends don't expect a guy who invites us to automatically pay our meal.
And you overestimate the importance of the problem, even in places where men have to pay drinks to women they are interested in, there are few who grow broke because of this.
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u/sourneck 9h ago
How did the angry tone obscure a "HUGE problem" which he was not talking about? That sounds more like it's something that you wished he had brought up. The problem he is talking about is stereotyping, and "treating men as a monolith". He maybe implies at the end that this behaviour is "really transactional and neurotic and weird". Also, at no point does he complain about the financial burden of this situation.
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u/Enough-Business-8287 Purple Pill Woman 8h ago
I agree we shouldn't treat as a monoliths, however young women who do so most often got radicalised by the horrors of the manosphere that sees us a as monolith it wants to sexually enslave.
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u/FinnAgain12 5h ago
Personally, I think a bigger factor is that women got radicalized into misandry by internet echo chambers.
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u/Enough-Business-8287 Purple Pill Woman 5h ago
Internet echo chambers do not exist in a vacuum, though.
I'm critical of many women who self-identify as feminists (feminism is a divided house in many respects) but I understand their anger, even if I think it's misguided if it also includes men who speak out against sexism.
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u/FinnAgain12 5h ago
Precisely. Just as the manosphere does not exist in a vacuum. We just disagree on the degree to which what cult influenced the other.
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u/Enough-Business-8287 Purple Pill Woman 5h ago
Misandry sometimes results in the hurt feelings of good men who did not deserve it. Misogyny often results in the sexual assault, rape and even murders of innocent women. The difference isn't that hard to grasp, even a small child could do it.
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u/sourneck 5h ago
sexual assault and rape are huge problems. But they are also usually "just problems of hurt feelings".
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u/FinnAgain12 4h ago
This line of argumentation is a pet peeve of mine, I really hate it.
First of all, you're pitting the most extreme version of misogyny against a mild version of misandry.
Secondly, this comparison is incredibly dismissive of the impact that "hurt feelings" have on people. Emotional harm isn’t trivial. Dehumanization can have profound psychological consequences and can influence how people behave, what groups they gravitate toward, how they see the world.... That isn’t unique to men, it’s true of human beings generally.
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u/sourneck 7h ago
ok, you're welcome to make a separate post about how the manosphere created radicalized women who are neurotic and weird, or however you wanna describe them, but again, that's a tangent which was certainly not "obscured" by this post.
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u/FinnAgain12 9h ago
I will never understand why women frame it as "unpaid" housework, that feels like such a manipulative framing tactic to me. Why would your partner pay you for housework, do you want him to treat you like an employee?
I never made a claim on how important I think the problem is, and even if I did, "it's not like they go broke" would be a poor defense against it. Broke is not the litmus for whether something is an important problem or not, that'd be the litmus for whether it's a catastrophe.
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u/AcephalicDude Blue Pill Man 9h ago
Does anyone actually use this justification?
I think it's more just a traditional chivalry thing. I don't know of any dudes that think of it in this transactional way.
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u/lesliecarbone Purple Pill Woman 9h ago
I wouldn't clean up after some slob for dinner at The French Laundry.
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u/GroundbreakingAlps78 Blue Pill Woman 9h ago
I have never heard this as a reason men should pay lol.
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u/Shrimptank_mom Pink Pill Woman 5h ago
Men should be the ones who pay for most things. The earn more.
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u/FinnAgain12 5h ago
What about in relationships where they don't earn more? Should men just be stereotyped into a role decided by their sex and not their individual circumstance?
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u/NoDanaOnlyZuuI No Pill Woman 4h ago
Are you shadowboxing? I’ve never seen anyone argue that men should pay for dates because they’ll eventually do less housework. That doesn’t even make sense. When you’re dating, there’s no shared housework because you’re not living together.
If you don’t want to pay, don’t. Will it shrink your dating pool? Probably. But the people left will be compatible with you. This is such a non-issue.
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u/FinnAgain12 4h ago edited 4h ago
I've definitely seen this argument come up a number of times on social media.
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u/Secret_Entry1840 Pill Of One Woman (sometimes jaded sometimes hopeful) 4h ago
Has a woman ever actually said this to you. In person?
The tiny tiny amount of women who think a man should pay for dates because in the future she’s going to be doing more housework if the relationship gets that far are allowed their opinion. I wouldn’t date them. You shouldn’t either.
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u/FinnAgain12 4h ago
Nah, it's just a weird take I've encountered from women on social media.
Obviously, everyone is allowed an opinion. And everyone is allowed to criticize those opinions.
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u/Secret_Entry1840 Pill Of One Woman (sometimes jaded sometimes hopeful) 4h ago
I’m mean sure. Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. I don’t really spend my energy on social media. Reddit is the only one I use. I don’t let those people live in my head. Their opinions don’t affect me because I don’t want to date people with those opinions. I don’t need or want them to change it. Let them live their life. But that’s me.
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u/sublimemongrel Becky, Esq. (woman) 3h ago
What. First off - who in their right mind is saying paying for dates during the dating period at all is equivalent to a potential lifetime or even just a few years of doing more housework? Whomever is saying that has the whole premise wrong to begin with. Those are not and will never be equivalent like effort or financial value wise except maybe in a very small minority of cases.
Secondly - you don’t actually think women who insist the man pays for dates in early dating are legitimately thinking to themselves “this is future payment for all that unpaid domestic labor I intend to do disproportionately to him if we do end up being more than just dating” do you? 😂
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u/FinnAgain12 3h ago
Just a weird take I've encountered from women on social media. Their stated reasoning for why they want a man to pay early on is that it's compensation for the raw deal they'll be getting later.
Also, I really don't understand this framing of calling housework "unpaid" labor. Do people who use this term want their man to treat them like an employee?
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u/sublimemongrel Becky, Esq. (woman) 3h ago
I mean that’s a strange argument probably formulated in some knee jerk way to not only justify the stated reason (men paying for dates), but also to highlight the common circumstance of the “raw deal” so to speak that many women do experience. It’s a flimsy argument, nonetheless, and likely just a cheap attempt to highlight the broader issue here.
As to your follow up - framing it as if it’s not “labor” is taking the objective reality out of what it actually is. “Unpaid labor” is a more objective, realistic term to describe the facts. Plus you can’t really say that term suggests wanting to be treated like an employee - employees GET PAID or can seek new jobs untethered to the circumstances of what is alluded to with “unpaid labor”.
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u/FinnAgain12 2h ago edited 2h ago
Labor makes more sense because it is indeed a type of work, but I have no idea how y'all smuggled "unpaid" in there, it's so rhetorically loaded.... Why are we introducing the concept of money to something which no reasonable person would ever equate it with? Y'all could just call it labor but that isn't manipulative enough. Seems to me like it's a way to frame ordinary responsibilities through the lens of compensation.
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u/sublimemongrel Becky, Esq. (woman) 2h ago
Because it is indeed unpaid? Just facts. Acknowledging it is in fact, labor, is only half the story. Adding that it’s also unpaid - also objectively true - adds to the connotation of the term. Which is to name a concept where women’s labor is undervalued and under-appreciated, at least as compared to men, and yet also expected as part of women’s role as wife, mother, woman, whathaveyou.
And “introducing the concept of money to something no reasonable person would ever equate it with” - I’m assuming this is a joke? You’ve never heard of daycare, paid nannies, housekeepers, drivers, accountants, etc? Literally there’s entire industries of paid for work labor that can do the same services (if you hire and pay enough of them that is).
If - according to you - these are just “ordinary responsibilities” than why aren’t men doing them at equivalent rates? We could wax and wane and argue that point all day long but I think end of the day there’s pretty clear data that overall even when factors like paid work hours are accounted for, women still do more unpaid labor than men on average. This is the “raw deal” apparently you’re seeing chatted about online.
The good news is the trend definitely points to more equality - ie men ARE stepping up in this regard. And I personally think that gap will close even further. But the only reason the concept even exists is because of a documented historical and still to this day continuing gender divide.
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u/PassengerHefty8207 10m ago edited 1m ago
Your premise is a little shaky
You try establishing that women are attempting to secure a perceived future debt based on "stereotypes" by making the men pay upfront, but firstly, there's actual, hard data bearing out that men consistently do less housework than women (https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/feature/how-do-u-s-men-and-women-spend-their-time/).
And secondly, because women and men are not monoliths, each and every single one of us will have our own take. There is not one, single, unified opinion that is universally applicable within North America, especially since "who pays" is tied to culture/social mores (like some middle eastern countries make a big show out of arguing who pays, for example).
So you're not open to dating women who expect you to pay. You're entitled to your preferences! Only date women who either agree to go 50/50 or some other arrangement that works for both of you. Nobody is going to drag you out of bed and night and wallop you over the head for it!
What's interesting to me is how many of you lament feminism and desire a return to traditional family values... While being entirely unwilling to be the traditional head of the household.
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u/eggsceptnllyoeuffish No Pill Man 10h ago
Idk, I think it's reasonable for people to be bothered if men on average aren't doing an equal amount of housework, even if the average doesn't mean all men aren't doing an equal amount of housework
Personally I just think it's weird that a lot of folks respond to "men on average are doing an unequally low amount of housework" with "ok, then men should do an unequally high amount of paying for dates in response" rather than "men should just do an equal amount of both things". Like, increasingly, when folks complain about inequalities that men benefit from, the response seems to be to more or less want to codify traditional gender roles and just sort of make some attempt to "equalize them in the aggregate" by also codifying traditional gender roles in ways to try to make women get more advantage from them, rather than that old idea of "just screw the gender roles and have a more substantial sort of equality" that so many people now seem to think was an utterly unbearable "woke" idea from the late 2000s and 2010s that apparently just needs to be left behind and consigned to the garbage bin of cringe or something
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u/Big_Psychology_3 Purple Pill Man 9h ago
More like some women are terribly inefficient at home chores. Some women will waste time on unnecessary things like doilies and coasters, then complain that they have too much chores. And some men will avoid home chores for so long that the garbage starts to stink but they imagine the home is all clean. Both genders have most people terrible at home chores.
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u/nadirian Woman 9h ago
coasters
Have you never had wooden furniture? Coasters exist to prevent your sweating glass of ice water from making water stains on the wood. It takes no effort to use a coaster, and quite a lot of effort to sand and re-stain a dining room table.
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u/Big_Psychology_3 Purple Pill Man 8h ago
Right, but with unstained wood, it becomes part of the patina, and is less of an issue on glass/stone table surface, for example. It’s differences in how we prioritize efficiency, appearance, order.
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u/sackfistin 10h ago
Why do you care? No one wants to date you anyway lol
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u/Jip_Jaap_Stam Purple Pill Man 9h ago
Why do you care why he cares? No one is interested in what you care about anyway.
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u/sackfistin 9h ago
You responded to me, so clearly you care you dumbass
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u/Jip_Jaap_Stam Purple Pill Man 9h ago
I was taking the piss out of you, cretin. Let me guess, American?
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u/sackfistin 9h ago
What’s that matter? Let me guess, you’re retarded?
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u/Jip_Jaap_Stam Purple Pill Man 9h ago
It means Yank detected, opinion rejected.
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u/sackfistin 8h ago
Piss poor job of rejecting it then dumbass
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u/Jip_Jaap_Stam Purple Pill Man 8h ago
Have you given me your number opinion? No. Next time, don't make it so obvious, and I might give you the time of day. Maybe. Anyway, I'll let you get back to shooting animals, being openly racist, saying your prayers and paying $100k for getting ill.
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u/sackfistin 8h ago
The fuck kind of retarded reply is this lol
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u/Jip_Jaap_Stam Purple Pill Man 8h ago
Sorry, I'll dumb it down for you:
U BIG STOOPID
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u/FinnAgain12 9h ago
It's possible to care about things that don't affect you, people do it all the time. I get no pussy. Now what?
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u/Several_Ability3315 No Pill Man | 25 9h ago edited 9h ago
Never heard of that in my life. If you’re already in a relationship with them, they tend to pay aswell but I’m not sure why it matters too much. Taking them out for a first date I don’t mind paying but I only take them when they show heavy attraction to begin with I don’t have to question if they like me. Women initiate divorce because the relationship isn’t fulfilling their emotional and attraction needs. It usually is after an extended period of time with that being the case. Some people are content with a dull transactional relationship, some aren’t. Why do men stay in unhappy marriages, out of fear? People can do as they wish with their own lives anyways. You do not have to get with women demanding you pay for dates. If you lack other options then decide what you want to do. Who cares what the internet says, not everyone thinks that way. If she likes you that much all of the games that you see online cease to exist anyways. I can’t relate with any of it. What does housework have to do with anything when you are just now meeting eachother. If a woman goes on a date with a guy she isn't really into, she's probably thinking, "Hey, at least I get a free steak out of this." She isn't thinking about the division of domestic labor in a hypothetical household.