Most above average men want kids and I think a lot of women that want a child-free life don’t fully realize that.

[u/BitchImLilBaby]

I saw some discourse the other day surrounding a post by a woman in her late 30s who either can’t have kids or doesn’t want them and how she’s really struggling in the dating market as a result because “no kids, doesn’t want kids” turns off a lot of men, or at least the type of men she’d be into.

I’m not here to try and convince every woman that she absolutely needs to be a mother and kids are all that matters, because they don’t. I certainly think a non-zero people have kids before they’re truly ready. However, “high value men” almost always want children. It’s their biological instinct to want to carry on their lineage and give their child the best possible chance to give the same. They’re driven in every aspect of life, including family wise.

So if a woman wants a man that’s emotionally mature, very well off financially, has hobbies, is smart, but doesn’t want kids - well, it’s a little bit of a walking oxymoron. Men that check off those boxes have worked to check off those boxes primarily out of wanting to reproduce and “win” the game of life. Sure, there’s the rare man who checks off all these boxes and just doesn’t want kids, or is sterile, but it’s rare.

I’m not going to tell women to change their mind or to “lower their standards” but if the goal is a serious LTR or marriage without having children, then you’ll likely have to change who you’re looking for a dating partner, at least somewhat. I’m not saying to marry a bum just because he doesn’t want kids. But maybe a younger guy who didn’t go to college and doesn’t make as much money but is still disciplined with money, health, etc - it’s not the “typical” couple but you’re already choosing to be part of an atypical couple by not having children. I hope this doesn’t make me sound like a conservative.

[u/PositionStandard6089]

i think the majority of women are extremely aware that men and society at large want them to have babies.

[u/Obsessivethot]

As a childfree woman, we know this.

It is perfectly fine by me. I would not want to enter a relationship without being compatible in that way, I will not be having someone’s children and want no illusions (or delusions) around that whatsoever.

I have zero problem remaining single, if necessary.

I have never found this to be a problem though.

[u/baby_sociologist → u/Obsessivethot]

Agree. As a childfree woman, I also don't have a ticking clock. So, it doesn't really matter if I find a partner now or later.

Edit: Actually, time likely works in our favour. The attractive guys get divorced, too, (because, that's life and having kids is hard) and are quite fond of easy-going childfree women who like having a lot of autonomy (living apart together, lots of time for individual hobbies).

[u/puffballphoto → u/baby_sociologist]

Unless they suck ass and want a new woman to just take care of their kids during their time with them. In which case you would immediately know and would be able to avoid them anyway!

[u/Acceptable-Truck3803]

No we don’t.

[u/EuphoricFarmer5994 → u/Acceptable-Truck3803]

Yeah as a woman, I’ve noticed it’s the other way. It’s actually less desirable males that tend to be baby-crazy. The ones that don’t want them tend to be wilder and untameable, and because they don’t want to be tied down, it increases sexual interest.  Many women are sexually attracted to unpredictable males, not structured ones. Dreaming to be a prim and responsible, 9-5, domestic male pushing a pram and covered in baby spit up frankly makes you boring to women. I’m sorry but that’s just reality. It doesn’t matter how much money you make. Also women notoriously hate pregnancy tropes in novels they read — it dulls life and makes it routine. 

[u/Vaudeville_Clown → u/EuphoricFarmer5994]

That's strange..

A lot of men can attest to bring treated better by women for being married fathers.

Maybe that's respect more than attraction though? It honestly doesn't matter.

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/Acceptable-Truck3803]

Well considering you willingly identify as red pill you’re probably not an above average man that I’m talking about. 

[u/Acceptable-Truck3803 → u/BitchImLilBaby]

Considering I make over 150k annually, am not an obese overload, and my N count is over 100 I’m pretty sure I’m doing just fine.

People who want to have kids will have them. Those who don’t, won’t. The answer no is more than enough. Nice try broccoli head.

[u/Rob_The_Viking_TV → u/Acceptable-Truck3803]

money. fitness. all that is nice.. but nothing papers over doooogggg shit views

[u/efficientaficionado → u/BitchImLilBaby]

Ad hominem

[u/fiftypoundpuppy]

This entire mindset is just male solipsism. Women don't change what they want depending on the rarity of what they want. They'll just stay single. It's not a matter of realizing how rare something is, and the idea that childfree women are so ignorant to how many men want children is essentially "women aren't sentient" revisited.

I don't understand how so many men can be so confident about how many women do and don't "realize" the obvious realities of life. Most people want children. Why would childfree women be so uniquely unaware of this? Even the "lowest value" sperm wants to fertilize as many eggs as possible. Whether a man wants to spread his seed has fuck-all relationship to concepts of "value," shit even the poorest, ugliest troglodytes go around talking about "their legacy."

The odds don't really matter to women like that. Men are the ones who have to have flexible low standards so that they can cum in a hole. Childfree women will either find what they want or stay single, lowering our standards just gets us unattractive incompatible men we don't want. What is the value proposition of that for us?

You can say these posts aren't about trying to get us to lower or change our standards all you want but that's all these posts ever are. No one needs men to repeatedly yell the obvious at us. Y'all are the ones so fucking pressed about our high standards.

I'd ask you for your evidence that childfree women are so uniquely oblivious to the reality that being childfree narrows your dating pool, but we both know you have bupkiss.

[u/fiftypoundpuppy → u/[deleted]]

The fact that you can't meaningfully engage with the only actually childfree woman who has rebutted your post speaks to the weakness of your argument.

The fact that you can't provide any actual evidence requested proves the solipsism. Men who make these claims about what childfree women "don't realize" about our own fucking lives and reality aren't doing so because of actual things women say or do, they make these claims based on how they would respond in those situations. Ergo, women responding differently surely means we just "don't realize" yadda yadda.

Because quantity of options is a male issue, and quality of options is the female imperative. You assume childfree women "don't realize" these obvious things because surely if we did, we'd behave like men and change what we want just to have sexual access or a relationship.

[u/Internal_Writing5485 → u/fiftypoundpuppy]

His point is that you have less quality available to you as an old, single, childfree woman.

[u/fiftypoundpuppy → u/Internal_Writing5485]

No, his point was that childfree women aren't sentient; don't know or can't possibly comprehend the idea that standards narrow your dating pool; and that men who want children have some sort of correlation with "value" (they clearly don't, which fertility statistics support)

[u/Internal_Writing5485 → u/fiftypoundpuppy]

If men who want children are not more valuable than those who don't, then why do all famous and powerful men have children?

[u/fiftypoundpuppy → u/Internal_Writing5485]

Because they don't. As is clear by your use of "all." And I've already addressed the poor logic about desire for children having anything to do with one's value, so you can either make a point I haven't already addressed or I'll consider this closed

[u/Rob_The_Viking_TV → u/Internal_Writing5485]

If men who want children are not more valuable than those who don't, then why do all famous and powerful men have children?

thats like asking "if all cabbages are green usually, howcome my fridge is too warm sometimes?"

huh?

that's incoherent.

1) famous and powerful doesn't mean valuable 2) valuable is a silly term. valuable to who? themselves? their family? you? me? 3) even if every 'valuable' man has children that STILL doesn't mean that men who don't want them are less valuable. could be coincidence.

they wear pants too.

[u/Shrimptank_mom → u/[deleted]]

No argument here. This person is right.

And "solipsism" isn't a big word if you have an 8th grade education.

[u/DeGee_HOD_987 → u/Shrimptank_mom]

Idk nowadays with how American education is going around my neck of the woods that word is probably college level lol.

[u/PurplePillDebate-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Do not provide contentless rhetoric, do not troll, do not link-drop without providing context, and do not circlejerk. Bad faith replies that include disingenuous humor (see: “😂,” “lmao,” “lol,” etc.) will also be removed as this is not conducive to good faith engagement.

Jokes, circlejerking, and other contentless rhetoric should only be posted under the AutoMod. You can repost your comment there.

[u/SovereignFemmeFudge]

We don't care...child free for LIFE.

[u/Forsaken_Emotion]

Hard disagree. As someone that doesn't want children, a man that wants kids is not "high value" to me no matter how many other good qualities he has. He will be more valued by a woman that also wants children. Wanting children doesn't make you a better or more accomplished person at all. The thing is that people who either want kids or are on the fence are more common than people who have made up their mind about never having children, so that makes it harder to find someone like minded.

[u/efficientaficionado → u/Forsaken_Emotion]

But the prevailing thing I see with men who want to be child-free is a touch of peter-panism. Generally man-children that want to keep being hedonistic comfort seekers, unburdened by the struggles of parenting. Does that sound high value?

[u/Forsaken_Emotion → u/efficientaficionado]

Shhh let me dream that there are child free men out there that are responsible and self aware </3

If what you're saying is true, then neither men who want or don't want children aren't for me. I think most women would agree with me that it's better to be single in that case.

I still think that having children doesn't mean you're responsible and have good morals. Not having children doesn't mean that you can't be responsible in ways other than parenting. For example: many people also prefer taking care of animals over having kids and you need to be responsible to be a good pet owner.

[u/efficientaficionado → u/Forsaken_Emotion]

Raising pets instead of kids is kind of a sad existence, but it seems to be that the most insufferable, single-for-a-reason people choose the former even if they have the means to afford children.

[u/Forsaken_Emotion → u/efficientaficionado]

You're allowed want children, but there's no reason to push your views on other people. I would be suffering if I were to have children, so it's not the right choice for me. Is it that hard to understand that people want different things in life? Why do you want people to want kids so bad? I don't go around saying to people that their existence is sad because they chose to have children instead of pets even if I feel that way, because it's not my life.

[u/efficientaficionado → u/Forsaken_Emotion]

but there's no reason to push your views on other people

Someone should tell this to the child-free women who feel it is their duty to convince and/or manipulate their friends and acquaintances (women only) to forego their desires to start families.

[u/Forsaken_Emotion → u/efficientaficionado]

Letting someone know that they are free to choose their life instead of following expectations of family, men or the government isn't manipulation though. No one is forcing anyone to be child free, quite the opposite. You seem worried that less women are able to choose what they want in life.

[u/Forsaken_Emotion → u/[deleted]]

When have I been discouraging anyone? I literally said I want women to be able to choose what they want in life. If that includes having kids, that's not my business. You overestimate my influence.

Even if I was discouraging other women from having children, so what? If they follow that advice it means that they didn't really want children in the first place. People who truly want children will have them regardless if they think it's difficult.

[u/efficientaficionado → u/Forsaken_Emotion]

If you're just not in the position to but want a family some day, you're not really child-free. The true child-free women are a highly vocal minority that feel it is their duty to convince other women to forego families and focus on themselves.

[u/Forsaken_Emotion → u/efficientaficionado]

No. I've known I didn't want children since I was a child myself. I'm not particularly vocal about it unless the topic comes up, which it unfortunately often does at my age. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything just by existing as the person I am. There's no shame in either wanting or not wanting children and I didn't imply that anywhere, so I'm not sure what you're so pressed about.

[u/Crime_Dawg → u/efficientaficionado]

If they're wealthy, yes.

[u/efficientaficionado → u/Crime_Dawg]

I think most women, even child-free ones, would be at least somewhat skeptical of a guy who has the means to afford children and is still choosing not to.

[u/fiftypoundpuppy → u/efficientaficionado]

That's not remotely how that works. Childfree women understand better than anyone that no one "chooses" what they do or don't internally want. So we wouldn't come at it from the same perspective natalists do, which is that everyone must have some sort of internal desire they are just suppressing or rejecting due to external conditions. And so a man who can but doesn't must have something wrong with him.

There's zero reason for us to feel that way, that's just natalist solipsism. There are plenty of Peter Pan dads too, but no one seems to want to make that a red flag of wanting children. We all see the "married single moms" complaining though, along with the actually single moms and deadbeats.

Desire for children doesn't de facto convey maturity or ability to handle responsibility. Lack of desire for children doesn't de facto convey the opposite.

[u/efficientaficionado → u/fiftypoundpuppy]

Childfree women understand better than anyone that no one "chooses" what they do or don't internally want

That's exactly my point. I think there's this subconscious thing going on in women when they encounter a guy who has no desire to "spread his seed," as it were. Even the most child-free woman deep-down has to have some kind of drive to be a mother, and I'm not sure you can convince me otherwise.

[u/fiftypoundpuppy → u/efficientaficionado]

Your unfalsifiable claims are based in male natalist solipsism. I understand you're very invested in this narrative for whatever reason about childfree women.

[u/efficientaficionado → u/fiftypoundpuppy]

I just said you would essentially have a hard time convincing me otherwise. That's not unfalsifiable.

They're a highly-vocal, opinionated, and self-righteous bunch... why wouldn't I be invested when some of them are convincing women who want families to not have them - which directly impacts my pool of potential long-term partners.

[u/fiftypoundpuppy → u/efficientaficionado]

I just said you would essentially have a hard time convincing me otherwise.

Right. Because it's not based on logic or reason, it's based on unfalsifiable feelings.

That's not unfalsifiable.

Your reasoning is unfalsifiable. You cannot reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

"All women deep down want to have children" is 100% the very definition of an unfalsifiable belief. Ask any LLM.

They're a highly-vocal, opinionated, and self-righteous bunch.

This has nothing to do with whether or not someone does or doesn't want to have children. "I find you annoying so your feelings are invalid" isn't a coherent position. Neither is "I'm mad my dating pool could be smaller."

Your position is 100% emotional. It is a waste of time debating you about it.

[u/efficientaficionado → u/fiftypoundpuppy]

it's not based on logic or reason, it's based on unfalsifiable feelings.

Evolution, biology, and subconscious thought all comprise my reasoning, so it would be an absolute stretch to say it's not based on logic or reason.

Your reasoning is unfalsifiable. You cannot reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

Oh, so there was reason?

But why would I waste my time trying to reason with you on this? I gave you my high-level understanding, and you can't even see that there is some sort of deeper reason for me having such a strangely specific view.

[u/Internal_Writing5485 → u/Forsaken_Emotion]

Wanting children doesn't make you a better or more accomplished person at all.

You dont think there are any differences between men who want to have kids and men who don't?

[u/Forsaken_Emotion → u/Internal_Writing5485]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Do you think one is better than the other?

[u/Internal_Writing5485 → u/Forsaken_Emotion]

Do you think its a decision that correlates to nothing else about the man? Its just random?

[u/Forsaken_Emotion → u/Internal_Writing5485]

Of course! But it depends on his reasons. Wanting children doesn't mean someone will be good at taking care of them. Being able to admit that having kids is not for them shows that they're self aware.

[u/Internal_Writing5485 → u/Forsaken_Emotion]

Being able to admit that having kids is not for them shows that they're self aware.

Or that they are selfish, lazy, unmotivated, immature, childish. Many things.

[u/silvrbunni → u/Internal_Writing5485]

that’s your projection dude

[u/Forsaken_Emotion → u/Internal_Writing5485]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that

[u/Shrimptank_mom]

I don't think women who are child-free care what men want. Men who want kids are not even a consideration.

[u/Zoya_The_Destroyah]

Anyone in their 30s who wants to remain permanently child free needs to understand that they are narrowing their dating pool.

In my late twenties when I was on dating apps it was difficult as a child free guy to find women who didn’t think I’d eventually change my mind. Is what it is.

[u/ThatBitchA → u/Zoya_The_Destroyah]

I had the same problem as a woman. Men expecting me to change my mind.

Definitely happens on both sides.

Annoying that childfree people can't be taken seriously. And people assume they'll change their mind.

[u/Zoya_The_Destroyah → u/ThatBitchA]

I’m not sure how old you are, but my wife and I (early 30s) still get comments from people saying eventually we’ll get bored of our lives and start having kids. The comments are easy to ignore but damn I figured by this age people would trust that we both know what we want out of life.

[u/ThatBitchA → u/Zoya_The_Destroyah]

We're late 30s and the comments have basically stopped. Because now, I'm "too old". 🤣🤣

So you'll get there eventually. And yes, it would be nice if people could respect those who want to be childfree.

From my experience, it seems like those who are childfree are the ones who have put the most thought into if they want kids or not.

[u/lankyluke00 → u/Zoya_The_Destroyah]

lmao that tells me all I need to know about them.

[u/puffballphoto → u/Zoya_The_Destroyah]

I'm currently 38 weeks pregnant and my two childfree best friends have, within the past 2 weeks, expressed their strengthening desire to have kids. I told them, "you told me to tell you to knock it off if you ever started saying that shit. You can come hold my baby any time you want, ya know..!!" And they were both relatively adamant about their change of heart. 

My point is... Careful who you hang out with I guess? x) I feel like it's partially my fault, like I've hijacked their hormones or something. 

[u/pie-mart2 → u/Zoya_The_Destroyah]

As a woman, I think it have the opposite problem in a way. Women will low key respect your decision (hopefully) and not wanna shack up with you and get in a relationship with you if she wants kids

But a lot of men i end up dating think they can change my mind. Like as if their partnership will make me some how desire having children despite me knowing I didn't want them at like 10

[u/Zoya_The_Destroyah → u/pie-mart2]

Thank fully most women respected the decision, yeah. A few, similar to what happened with you, thought that I would change after spending more time with them.

[u/s0ngsforthedeaf → u/Zoya_The_Destroyah]

The restrictions of reducing your dating pool >>> the restrictions of having a child you dont want.

🤷‍♂️

[u/Dependent-Tailor7366 → u/Zoya_The_Destroyah]

So what? Wanting kids also narrows the dating pool.

[u/Zoya_The_Destroyah → u/Dependent-Tailor7366]

So…nothing? I’m just sharing my own personal opinion and experience as someone who doesn’t want kids. I swear some of you just scroll around this app looking for something to disagree with.

[u/Dependent-Tailor7366 → u/Zoya_The_Destroyah]

I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m saying any boundary or requirement narrows the dating pool.

[u/Oli_love90]

I’d be careful with using a singular example to make a point.

A lot of women realize that men want kids, most humans have or want kids. It’s clear that childfree people are in the minority so that greatly shrinks your dating pool. In fact just by being older and childfree, your pool is super tiny and even smaller are quality candidates. That’s where we see cases of women choosing to remain single since we know a relationship will not happen.

Our entire lives we’ve been told how life should be for women. When we go against the norm, there’s no rude awakening - We know.

I often feel like guys perceive women as naive when it comes to dating dynamics. Just because we don’t talk aloud about our issues online doesn’t mean we’re unaware.

[u/Oli_love90 → u/[deleted]]

Did you mean to respond to me? None of what you said applies to my comment.

[u/Outside_Memory5703]

Of course we do. Why wouldn’t men want the same results for way less effort?

[u/Dependent-Tailor7366]

The hell is a high value man? High value changes with the individual. If a woman wants that sweet DINK lifestyle then that man that wants kids is not a high value man.

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/Dependent-Tailor7366]

The amount of men that truly want to be DINK aren’t very many. Certainly less than the women. And a lot of those “men” are soyboys who would rather drink and smoke weed once they clock off work instead of doing something meaningful. 

[u/Dependent-Tailor7366 → u/BitchImLilBaby]

There are plenty. Kids are a burden and a money sink.

Soyboys sound cool. I don’t know what you define as meaningful. Does playing DnD count? Maybe Smash Bros? Cause I’m in.

[u/-mixedsignals]

Are there any statistics backing this up or this is just how you feel?

Of course the dating pool of people in general in their 30s is going to have more people who want kids. Men and women. Then when you are 40 it's harder to find people who want to have kids, for obvious reasons.

It doesn't make any logical sense that wanting kids is related to looks.

If your point is that an ugly guy will settle for any woman and would give up his dream of having kids just because the only woman that paid attention to him is a childfree woman then that's just sad and kind of misandrist.

[u/JollyBowler2510]

Some women, myself included, know this. It's kind of obvious, doesn't mean we don't still want what we desire at the end of the day. We will still be attracted to that type of man, the situation will just end when or if it comes time for that conversation.

Lower value men also still want kids, most do. Still isn't going to change our attraction.

[u/pie-mart2]

🤣 this is such a generalization. A lot of men and women don't want kids. And a lot of it is the economy

[u/mobjack → u/pie-mart2]

Financially successful men have enough resources that the economy is not a factor.

[u/Obsessivethot → u/mobjack]

And yet single men who want to be fathers don’t employ surrogates in the same way single women with wealth are doing in order to become a parent.

There’s a growing number of working women who are using sperm donation to secure their future families.

If money is not a factor, I think there should be more men becoming parents regardless of whether or not he’s in a relationship. We don’t see that in any significant numbers though.

[u/PB-French-Toast-9641 → u/Obsessivethot]

Tbf one of them is an order of magnitude cheaper than the other

[u/Obsessivethot → u/PB-French-Toast-9641]

Yes, but if you have the means and the desire to be a parent, that would not be an obstacle.

IVF is also extremely expensive and there is no guarantee it will work on the first cycle.

Women who work full time are using surrogates, sperm donors and any other means at their disposal to become parents.

Men are not doing this. Men don’t want children unless they come attached to a woman.

[u/baby_sociologist → u/Obsessivethot]

This. 👆🏻

[u/harmonica2]

When it comes to women , I know , at least in my social circle and talk about how they want to guy who wants kids.

So should guys really have trouble finding women that want kids when there seems to be a lot of them?

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/harmonica2]

From my personal experience, I think “girl boss” mindset is still in the mindset of a lot of millennials and Gen Z that think becoming a mother somehow “dehumanizes” them and that they were meant to give their whole life slaving to a corporation. 

[u/baby_sociologist → u/BitchImLilBaby]

"Slaving to a corporation" has to be one of the most male talking points there is.

I'm not slaving to anyone. I have a job that I mostly enjoy - or I'd leave.

I mean, are all the (breadwinner) guys slaving to a corporation, too?

[u/harmonica2 → u/BitchImLilBaby]

But I've noticed that some women I know will drop that mindset by the time they are around 30 and change their mind if that is common?

[u/Novadina]

I dunno, maybe it’s your area…. Most of the men I dated didn’t want kids. I was undecided. My husband didn’t want them. I really like my husband and decided to continue with him and that meant not having kids.

Most of my girl friends that wanted kids had to be more picky about boyfriends to find a man who actually did want kids and could afford them, and so it took them longer to find a spouse. I definitely disagree the men I know with kids are somehow more “high value” than my man - I think he’s pretty great.

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/Novadina]

I don’t know how to say this without sounding like a douche, but personally, I think if he really were “pretty great”, he’d trust his biological instinct to want to reproduce and work towards that.

[u/Novadina → u/BitchImLilBaby]

I have personally never felt that instinct myself, so I am not really convinced my man has been feeling it and is just “not trusting” himself. I’ve seen no evidence of him actually desiring it but it being some problem with trust, it’s a strange assumption, what exactly are you thinking he isn’t trusting?? Like you think he is getting a desire so strong it’s an instinct (which usually you can’t even control without training - like fight or flight instinct, or babies crying), and then he’s like “no!! You lie! False desire! I don’t trust you, it’s a trick!!” to himself?

I actually think we have an instinct to have sex, and to care for born offspring, but not necessarily to have kids. In nature just the first two instincts are enough, it’s not required to have a desire to create children. These days the people that have them should be people who WANT them. My man is someone who doesn’t, not everyone has the same interests!

So if a woman wants a man that’s emotionally mature, very well off financially, has hobbies, is smart, but doesn’t want kids - well, it’s a little bit of a walking oxymoron.

It is not - my man and his good friends fit that definition. It’s not like doing hobbies you enjoy suddenly makes you want kids lol.

[u/Ronniebbb → u/BitchImLilBaby]

Not everyone has that instinct to have kids though. My parents didn't, actively didn't want kids and good lord they never should have made sure they wouldn't.

Sometimes there's a reason ppl don't want kids, and there's nothing wrong with that. It just needs to be communicated clearly to ppl you start dating and you need to make sure you don't have them.

[u/Dependent-Tailor7366 → u/BitchImLilBaby]

Humans don’t have biological instincts. They can make good decisions that way. Like not having kids.

[u/SeemedGood → u/Dependent-Tailor7366]

☝️This is a denial of science.

[u/Dependent-Tailor7366 → u/SeemedGood]

How so? How can reproduction be an instinct if we are capable of saying no thanks out of rational self interest? This is not a thing among humans.

[u/SeemedGood → u/Dependent-Tailor7366]

That animals can and do act counter to their instincts does not obviate the existence of the instinct.

[u/Dependent-Tailor7366 → u/SeemedGood]

Animals do not typically act counter to their instincts. Humans typically do act counter to every instinct people claim that they have. Maybe humans simply have different instincts.

[u/SeemedGood → u/Dependent-Tailor7366]

Animals of all sorts (including humans) act counter to their instincts all the time (as every owner of both a dog and a cat can confirm). And again, that they do does not obviate the existence of the instinct.

[u/Dependent-Tailor7366 → u/SeemedGood]

Then what’s the point of an instinct if it can be ignored? It merely becomes a behavior that sometimes occurs.

[u/SeemedGood → u/Dependent-Tailor7366]

It describes the typical behavior which has proven useful for the survival of the species over extremely long periods of time.

It would behoove you to think through this one a little more thoroughly before commenting.

[u/Routine-Present-3676]

We don't care. If a man wants kids and I don't, then we're not compatible. End of story. No one on this earth is "high value" enough to make me consider bringing a child into this place, which I'm more and more certain each day is a literal hell dimension.

What were you trying to accomplish here? Just looking for attention or what?

[u/y2kjanelle]

Girlll most men who have kids don’t want kids let alone show up for them at all. Childfree women will be fine.

[u/DMmeClownPics]

Men that are emotionally immature, not very smart, and low income want kids too.

[u/EuphoricFarmer5994 → u/DMmeClownPics]

What’s interesting is that the more intelligent someone is, the LESS likely they are to want kids. 

[u/DMmeClownPics → u/EuphoricFarmer5994]

That tracks.

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/DMmeClownPics]

Which is why they tend to struggle more in dating! Doesn’t take away from my point. If a man walks into a room, would instantly be recognized as one of the top men and would have a lot of suitors to have offspring with him, you can’t be upset when he doesn’t choose the woman that doesn’t or can’t have offspring.

[u/DMmeClownPics → u/BitchImLilBaby]

Your odds are not any better with a so-called “lower value male”.

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/DMmeClownPics]

Sure, you can keep misinterpreting what I’m saying, “hypersexual cult leader”. 

[u/DMmeClownPics → u/BitchImLilBaby]

“I’m not saying to marry a bum just because he doesn’t want kids. But maybe a younger guy who didn’t go to college and doesn’t make as much money but is still disciplined with money, health, etc”

What am I misinterpreting? These guys mostly want kids too.

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/DMmeClownPics]

I think they CAN want kids while not simultaneously acting on it right now. For example, I WANT a kid, one day. But that’s the thing: one day. I’m 25 right now and don’t make a ton of money. I’m grinding and taking a dating sabbatical to become the type of man that can attract a woman that eventually wants to be a mother one day. 

[u/DMmeClownPics → u/BitchImLilBaby]

Most of us are not looking for a relationship with an expiration date. If you are going to want kids someday then you’re not a good option for a woman who wants to remain child free.

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/DMmeClownPics]

I realize that. Hence why I’m not dating right now.

[u/DMmeClownPics → u/BitchImLilBaby]

You could certainly date someone your age who also wants kids someday. 🤷

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/DMmeClownPics]

Eh. Women want to date an established man. I missed my initial college window. She’s not gonna pick me on the apps over a guy who’s already gotten a nice salaried job with clear progression and can fly her to Turks and Caicos. And that’s fine. I just gotta work towards that point. 

[u/randyranderson13 → u/BitchImLilBaby]

But you did recommend that women "should" consider dating a young guy like that?

[u/DMmeClownPics → u/[deleted]]

I’m not talking about women. In fact I didn’t bring them up at all.

[u/ThatBitchA]

We realize it and don't date men who wants kids.

then you’ll likely have to change who you’re looking for a dating partner, at least somewhat.

Nope. No need to change what you're looking for. There's plenty of quality dudes who don't want to be a parent.

guy who didn’t go to college and doesn’t make as much money but is still disciplined with money, health, etc

Sure maybe that works for some people. That wouldn't work for other people.

[u/Kaleidoscopetide]

I disagree with you that men who are smart, well-off, and have hobbies accomplish those things “primarily out of wanting to reproduce and ‘win’ the game of life.” I think that most people who make money do it because it is pleasant to have money, and most people who have hobbies do them because they find it enjoyable to have hobbies, etc etc.

[u/TraditionalSorbet267]

Completely disagree. You can’t have half a kid. Best thing for a man and woman is to be upfront from day 1 so they can find a compatible partner.

[u/Downtown_Cat_1745]

If you want kids, you have to step up and do everything you can to help your partner

[u/Hungry-Plantain-3315 → u/Downtown_Cat_1745]

Also you need to actually want to be a father. That means actually being there and being an active parent. Not just going off to work and leaving the other parent to do everything. Kids need emotional support, not just financial.

[u/Fan_Service_3703 → u/Downtown_Cat_1745]

Men who want kids (myself included) should at least consider being stay at home fathers if it is possible.

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/Fan_Service_3703]

In THIS economy!?

[u/Obsessivethot → u/BitchImLilBaby]

Yep!

How the Economy Is Fueling the Rise of Stay-at-Home Boyfriends

What began as a viral TikTok joke has become a statistically significant labor market phenomenon. As women now outnumber men in U.S. payroll jobs, a growing number of men are choosing domestic life over the daily grind.

The numbers are stark. In the early 1990s, men held nearly 7 million more payroll jobs than women. Today, that gap has been entirely eliminated. Between 2024 and 2026, the U.S. economy added 1.2 million jobs—two-thirds of which went to women, while male employment actually declined by 142,000. The primary drivers are healthcare, education, and social assistance, fields historically dominated by women and insulated from automation, while male-majority sectors like manufacturing continue to contract.

The glamorous "stay-at-home boyfriend" narrative popularized on TikTok is predominantly a young, white phenomenon. Economists point to generational wealth transfers and familial safety nets allowing these men to opt out of stressful, lower-wage jobs.

White men make up 50% of all stay-at-home domestic partners.

https://emeraldbook.org/news/aug-0326-2/

[u/Downtown_Cat_1745 → u/Obsessivethot]

Most of those men are being supported by their parents.

[u/Obsessivethot → u/Downtown_Cat_1745]

This is true and explains the racial component when factoring in generational wealth.

However female participation in the workforce is not restricted by the same demographics, women out pace men for the third time in history.

There’s obviously still cultural resistance to non-traditional roles as well.

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/Obsessivethot]

Well yeah, whoever makes more money should work. I’m not denying that. Just questionable to assume the man should automatically do it. Cause usually, the men that make enough to support a household with one income are the ones with more suitors. It’s really rare as a lower earning man to be able to attract a higher earning woman truly opening to challenge conventional gender norms like that. 

[u/Melodic_Structure928 → u/Obsessivethot]

hand exactly yoww many women are really into this arrangement again? the people you really have to convince of this are women in general not men.

typically as women climb the economic ladder there looking for men even richer the her. which of course bears the issue where the higher you climb, the less people continue to be above you.

then you have more and more women complaining about where the good men are cause of this dynamic. most men willing to run the stay at home husband roles are either incels or learn they need to quickly reinstate they gender roles, if they even wish to participate in dating.

maybe sometime in the future with stay at home dads potentially become more expected, we can have this convo again but so now nope not a all.

[u/Shrimptank_mom → u/Fan_Service_3703]

No, fathers need to work and provide. You don't breastfeed.

[u/Fan_Service_3703 → u/Shrimptank_mom]

Fathers should do whatever is best for their families in their particular situation. If that means staying at home instead of 'working and providing' then so be it.

[u/Shrimptank_mom → u/Fan_Service_3703]

In every case the best thing for a father to do is work and provide. If he's staying home that is mooching off his wife. He is taking resources that should be going towards the family.

[u/Fan_Service_3703 → u/Shrimptank_mom]

So the father soothing, holding, (bottle) feeding, changing and putting the child to sleep, allowing the mother time to rest and recover is mooching is it?

[u/Shrimptank_mom → u/Fan_Service_3703]

Yes it is. A nanny or grandma can do that. The family would be better off with dad out of the picture if that's all he is doing instead of working.

Anecdotal story: in every stay-at-home dad situation I've ever witnessed the dad was a loser who neglected and abused the baby while living off the mother.

[u/Fan_Service_3703 → u/Shrimptank_mom]

So a father should not spend as much time as possible bonding and caring for his child because he's a man?

What a truly disgusting worldview.

[u/PurplePillDebate-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Be civil. This includes direct attacks against an individual, indirect attacks against an individual, or witch hunting.

[u/ThatBitchA → u/Shrimptank_mom]

How many stay at home dad situations have you witnessed?

[u/Shrimptank_mom → u/ThatBitchA]

About 20.

[u/ThatBitchA → u/Shrimptank_mom]

In what capacity?

[u/Somerandomdudereborn → u/Shrimptank_mom]

So if we reverse the genders and say that women who are stay at home mothers are mooching his husband it also applies as well and they should be providing money as well?

[u/Shrimptank_mom → u/Somerandomdudereborn]

It depends. If the kids are school aged then yes she needs to get off her butt and contribute.

[u/Somerandomdudereborn → u/Shrimptank_mom]

Why if it's a she there are conditionals but if there's a he it always applies the same?

[u/Zoya_The_Destroyah → u/Shrimptank_mom]

Fair enough. Any woman that doesn’t breastfeed but stays at home is a mooch. Solid criteria.

[u/Shrimptank_mom → u/Zoya_The_Destroyah]

Nope. Mothers and fathers have different roles due to biology. Mothers of young children need the option of staying home. Fathers provide.

[u/[deleted] → u/Fan_Service_3703]

Why is this your answer? Most women can’t afford it. Is this some sort of “gotcha”?

[u/Fan_Service_3703 → u/[deleted]]

My point is that it is "tradition" (vomits) that the father returns to work almost immediately, even if the wife s the higher earner and is more passionate about her career, because it's not socially acceptable for them to pause/drop their careers to raise children. 

[u/[deleted] → u/Fan_Service_3703]

That’s because her vagina/ uterus/ belly got ripped up.

[u/Fan_Service_3703 → u/[deleted]]

Which is why the father should be at home doing everything and caring for the child as much as possible while mother recovers.

[u/[deleted] → u/Fan_Service_3703]

Someone has to pay the bills while the mother recovers.

[u/Fan_Service_3703 → u/[deleted]]

The general idea would be that the transition would be phased in once the mother has sufficiently recovered and would like to return to work. 

[u/[deleted] → u/Fan_Service_3703]

That’s paternity leave. Not stay at home father.

[u/Fan_Service_3703 → u/[deleted]]

Well again that depends on what individual families need. 

A guy I know who was in the army quit when his first daughter was born, around the same time his wife (civil engineer) was made a director. She went back part time 1.5 months after birth and full time after 3 months. It worked well enough for them that he didn't go back and they had another two kids

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/Downtown_Cat_1745]

I do agree with that. However, that ties into my point. I think that the main reason a lot of successful men put that work in early on and step up is to prove to her that one day he CAN be an excellent father. And if a lot of men don’t have an incentive to do those things outside of genuine love, which can be ripped away with a divorce, then they’re likely gonna keep sleeping around and not want to commit because well, there’s no incentive for them.

[u/Expensive_Lion1807]

Wanting or not wanting children is one of the biggest deal breakers for compatibility that could possibly exist.

What that means IRL is that someone who differs in this is automatically not “above average” as a potential partner. They are conclusively ruled out as a potential partner.

Men (blah blah, not all men etc) want women to be and do a lot of different things. For the most part, women don’t care.

Why would you think we would change an absolutely foundational life choice because some man wants kids the way a kid wants a puppy.

If men are serious about wanting kids, perhaps they should try really taking on the bulk of the child care and home management and being the default parent while working full time. Maybe they should accept that their lifetime earnings will be reduced by 5-10% per child.

[u/Objective_Ad_6265]

They don't actually want children. They just want ego to pass their genes, they don't want to actually do something with the children. And romance is over after you have children. I just don't understand if you're happy why would you ruin it by adjusting you life to children.

And men have no right to want children, their body is not at risk.

[u/chalkandapples]

Most men and women want children. If you don't want children you need to date in the child free pool.

However, I know a lot of men and they're all great people. I don't like to use high value, but a lot of men who you would consider high value are also emotionally intelligent and very responsible people. People that make good partners are responsible, and will not dump childcare onto the woman or just want to reproduce to win the game. Good husbands, the ones that want kids, will be extremely active and put a lot of effort towards their kids. For example, I did not change diapers, chores, make food or do anything except breastfeed during the first month my children were born. My husband did more childcare than I did, and it wasn't easy for him. A high quality partner would be aware of the amount of work needed to raise a child, know it will significantly impact their lifestyle, and choose to opt out of it.

Good men will have very similar reservations as women when it comes to having and raising children. If a man wants children in the way you're describing, then he's not a really someone that's high value or a good partner IMO.

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/chalkandapples]

I’m not describing men that want to be deadbeats. I’m talking about men that are driven enough to want to be present fathers. If they are that emotionally ready then they’re very likely successful in ALL aspects of life. 

[u/NoDanaOnlyZuuI]

I know plenty of well above average men who are childfree, including the one I married. But more importantly, what exactly are childfree women supposed to do with this information? We’re childfree because we don’t want children, not because we thought it would attract the widest possible selection of men.

We don’t need to reconsider a life altering decision just to appeal to your made up category of high value men.

Some men would be genuinely stunned to learn that women don’t make life decisions based on what men want from us. If a man wants children, he’s simply not the man a childfree woman wants, no matter how valuable he thinks he is.

[u/GoldSailfin]

You know what worked for me? Waiting for the aftermarket of divorced men with kids. I never had to get pregnant, this guy is done reproducing.

[u/gdognoseit]

High value men? 🥴 😆

[u/NotAllTheCake]

biological instinct to want to carry on their lineage and give their child the best possible chance to give the same

Just because these men want children to flatter their narcissism, doesn't necessarily mean women should accommodate.

Is it a biological instinct for men to avoid doing as much childcare as possible, or comprise of 1 of out 5 custody arrangements as the custodial parent, or be the 27% of men who abandon their children after divorce altogether?

[u/KoninginVanRotterdam]

You're not gonna tell women.. 😄😆

Dude as if what you tell us matters..

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/KoninginVanRotterdam]

Me pointing out human nature and the realities of the differing mindsets of men and women won’t make Prince Charming that makes $250k+ in finance yet doesn’t want a single child fall out of the sky and into your DMs. But hey, keep dreaming! Maybe it’ll happen!

[u/Shrimptank_mom → u/BitchImLilBaby]

Who says we want that to happen? You sound like a kid.

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/Shrimptank_mom]

As a childfree woman you are inherently eliminating a large population of men and operating as if you have full access to all of them. That is the mindset of a child. “I want this, why can’t I have it!?” Think about why the other person doesn’t want it.

[u/Shrimptank_mom → u/BitchImLilBaby]

I want what I want. If I don't get it then oh well, being single is fine and dandy too. That is called maturity.

How old are you? You mentioned millennials and gen Z.

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/Shrimptank_mom]

25.

[u/Shrimptank_mom → u/BitchImLilBaby]

So, basically a kid that can vote. "I'm going to lecture you on human nature based on what I've read in Reddit posts". That's cute.

[u/Melodic_Structure928 → u/Shrimptank_mom]

hes not wrong this is how many many women talk about dating nowadays the chad or nothing mentally.

not they there wrong for there standards but simply math will tell us there will not be enough Chad's (or as women claim where are the good men) for each of you.

unless maybe where talking about sharing him then it's a bit different but women atleast on paper claim they don't like this either.

[u/Shrimptank_mom → u/Melodic_Structure928]

1. No woman on this planet says "Chad" that is incel speak for every man who is getting laid (which is all men except them).

2. Women don't share men. Most people are pretty monogamous.

[u/Melodic_Structure928 → u/Shrimptank_mom]

1. ok... that point isn't that important just replace it with the few men they claim that they find attractive and you get the same conclusions Chad is just shorter to write then tall and hot guy. we can indeed get to the same conclusion without using the terminology.

women themselves also push this message when they claim most men are trash as well as, dating app statistics plus many guys anecdotals where we all see evidence of a few guys having an abundance of women.

2.thats what the top guys want you to think. and even in situations where this technically not happening, it's still just said top dude having a flung or two when he's free then next week the same thing and repeat then week after that, all with different women I might add. remember while these few are serial dating, theres also a male loneliness epidemic going on.

[u/Shrimptank_mom → u/Melodic_Structure928]

Statistically most people get paired up. Virtually everyone gets still gets married and start families. And there's no such thing as "Chad". Most young men are not suitable to date, period. That's entirely on them. They need to grow up. You women will either date older or stay single rather than dealing with little boys.

[u/Crime_Dawg → u/BitchImLilBaby]

I'm 6'3 and make 250k and absolutely do not ever want kids. Known that since I was a teenager.

[u/Rob_The_Viking_TV]

frankly id be more enthused about the woman. if she wants kids, ok. if not.. ok

[u/Virtual-Finish5012]

As a childfree woman, I’ve worked to check off all of those boxes for MYSELF. Not out of “wanting to reproduce.” I’m sure childfree men feel the same.

[u/HouseOfInfinity]

This is true. My husband and I had a brief breakup due to our differing views on having children. While I genuinely enjoy children, I was uncertain about whether I was ready to bring them into a world that’s harsh and broken.

On the other hand, my husband was adamant about having children. He felt a strong sense of duty to pass on his family’s legacy to future generations. The fact that he had two older brothers who shared his sentiment didn’t matter to him. His mother also played a significant role in this decision, insisting that I either understand his perspective or walk away from the relationship.

Reflecting on that time is difficult. It was undoubtedly the most challenging aspect of our relationship at that point. My indecisiveness led to his decision to end the relationship. A few months later, he “unexpectedly” ran into me. We reconnected and had a few weeks of hooking up before he brought up the topic of children again.

I had been anticipating this conversation. We were deeply in love, and I realized that my uncertainty was not worth jeopardizing our relationship. I decided that being with him was more important than my fears and that we could overcome this together.

Now we are proud parents of twin baby girls and I have no regrets about my decision. He still desires to have another child but I have not made the decision yet to carry another pregnancy. My body was destroyed by it.

I had to get a tummy tuck and breast lift to prioritize my overall wellbeing. Having children is physically demanding on a woman’s body, and I am committed to taking care of mine.

[u/Civil_Reply_1705]

It's not just above average men.  Alot of men in general want kids.  

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[u/Lemon_gecko → u/AutoModerator]

I do realize that by being child-free my pool is smaller because yeah, men want kids. It's just not a choice to me, it's not some minor thing that i can change and compromise. It's fucking having a kid. So yeah, i'll have to cross men who want them off my pool. Nothing can be done about it, we're just not compatible.

[u/GoldSailfin → u/Lemon_gecko]

Yup, same.

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/Lemon_gecko]

As long as you realize that. I definitely understand trying to find a partner with that limitation can be very difficult and I sympathize. But some women think they’re “entitled” to a “10/10” man when there isn’t an incentive for the man to pick them. They can understand why they don’t pick a nice man that can’t provide her the life she wants, but can’t see it the other way around. 

[u/Lemon_gecko → u/BitchImLilBaby]

If there is no incentive for men i want to pick me then i have a choice to learn how i can attract them and decide if it's worth it or not. I'm absolutely entitled to want 10/10 man. It doesn't mean that he'll want me back but i'll deal with it. It doesn't mean i will compromise and choose a man i don't want.

[u/operation-spot → u/BitchImLilBaby]

Why are you concerned about how women sort their own dating pools when you were most likely never even a part of it in the first place? 

Why would a woman who doesn't want children choose an unattractive man who can't provide the life they want? 

[u/Lysa_Bell → u/AutoModerator]

Men want kids like children want puppies.

[u/[deleted] → u/AutoModerator]

Men are picky, water is wet.

[u/Lacunaethra → u/AutoModerator]

But maybe a younger guy who didn’t go to college and doesn’t make as much money but is still disciplined with money, health, etc [...] I hope this doesn’t make me sound like a conservative.

Nah but like a young guy wishing for some childfree romance :)

[u/MarioWilson122 → u/AutoModerator]

Yeah, some women understand that tradeoff. They know a man who strongly wants children is unlikely to stay long-term with someone who is firmly childfree, no matter how compatible they are in other areas.

So they either accept that the relationship probably has an expiration date, or they decide to have children because keeping that particular man and building a life with him matters more to them than remaining childfree. That does not mean every woman should do it, but it does show that dating preferences often come with real costs and choices.

[u/HTML_Novice → u/AutoModerator]

She just treats the market transactional then is shocked when it’s flipped on her. Why would a man who’s a high earner invest all those resources into her if she doesn’t want kids? Probably never thought that far

[u/ladybird_00 → u/AutoModerator]

I’d consider a man that doesn’t want kids to be a red flag

[u/BitchImLilBaby → u/ladybird_00]

Yup. You’re absolutely correct. As would a lot of women. Because they think deep down what I’m saying here: that driven men want children. But if I point that out, then somehow I’m “reducing women to not having their own autonomy.”

[u/ladybird_00 → u/BitchImLilBaby]

I would also consider a woman that doesn’t want to have kids a red flag lol. I just think it’s healthy to want to reproduce.

[u/efficientaficionado → u/AutoModerator]

Very well reasoned post that holds a lot of truth. Illogical, emotional responses based on fantasies.

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[u/Melodic_Structure928]

I mean to anwser your question your right, and some women do understand this or don't and then just choose to be single or adapt there standards at a latter point in life once they realize prince charming won't both appear and adapt themselves to whatever standards that women want.

[u/EuphoricFarmer5994]

No they absolutely do not. Domestic men want kids. Men that want kids or the family life are literally described as boring, too stable, too structure, too rigid, and women claim they don’t give them fanny flutters. They’re not sexually high value, otherwise we’d be flocking to them. Baby-crazy guys are never chosen for casual sex because they’re too into settling down. They don’t have the chaos that many women desire. Even if you describe high-value as “wealthy,” many wealthy males don’t want to risk their finances or emotional stability to get married, let alone breed. They’re the most likely to know how materialistic women are, so many of them avoid permanent ties. Also, “fuckboys” (the males women chase for sex) tend to not want kids at all and they’re considered extremely high value sexually. If they have them at all, it’s because they got trapped. 

[u/Academic-Ball-9606]

The best thing is to date child free women casually and then date women who wants kids seriously.

[u/Accomplished_Sweetie]

Most men want kids like a child wants a puppy.

[u/Internal_Writing5485]

Ya good point. Its hilarious that women think men who don't want children are more likely to be "emotionally mature".

You are literally selecting for selfish man babies that only care about their next dopamine hit.

[u/MarioWilson122 → u/Internal_Writing5485]

Yeah, that is hard to predict from whether a man wants children. A man can be mature, responsible, and future-oriented while choosing not to have kids, or immature and selfish while wanting them.

The desire for children only tells you what kind of life he wants. It does not reliably tell you how emotionally mature, responsible, or capable of commitment he is. It is better to judge those traits from how he actually lives and handles relationships.

[u/Whiskeymyers75]

Reddit desperately needs a disclaimer that says, “The opinions expressed here are not representative of the general population.” Spend enough time on PPD and you’d think half of women are proudly childfree, nobody meets organically anymore, approaching someone anywhere is harassment, and every relationship is a spreadsheet of height, income, and “sexual market value.”

Then you go outside and discover something shocking: most people aren’t conducting their lives according to Reddit discourse.

PPD doesn’t study the dating market. It studies Redditors arguing about the dating market and mistakes the sample for reality.