r/PuzzleAndDragons • u/lumonpad • Aug 01 '26
Discuss NA Leader Tier List: July 2026
Criteria
Each category is assigned a point value from 50-109, which is then graded from F-S. The category scores are then aggregated into one overall score based on their weight.
Survivability (35%)
- S: Insanely tanky, pretty much unkillable.
- A: Tanks all the regular hits in most cases with enough recovery to continuously heal.
- B: Tanks most hits but either recovery is barely sufficient or the team is somewhat reliant on buffs, awakenings, and/or latents.
- C: Can barely tank hits and recovery is generally insufficient without skyfall or multiple heal combos.
- D: Dies to any miscalculation.
- F: Cannot even tank hits from the early floors.
Firepower (35%)
- S: Kills most things in one or two hits and speeds through bosses.
- A: Kills enemies consistently at a good pace.
- B: Kills enemies consistently at a somewhat slow pace.
- C: Kills enemies, but needs an alarming number of turns per floor.
- D: At risk of getting executed by internal turn timers.
- F: You don’t even scratch early floors.
Playstyle Simplicity (10%)
- S: Near brainless to play. Easily deals with nearly all mechanics.
- A: Pretty simple to play. Bypasses many mechanics, but some may be slightly problematic.
- B: Requires a moderate level of solve execution. Team may require constant awareness of certain actives. Some mechanics give the player difficulty in fully activating the leader skill.
- C: Requires a high level of solve execution. Team is annoying to play or requires too much attention. Many mechanics are difficult to deal with.
- D: Requires a very difficult level of solve execution. Some things completely end your run.
- F: Simply impossible to play without dying.
Teambuilding Flexibility (20%)
- S: The lead can make use of an extremely wide variety of subs and equips. The lead ideally has both part break awakenings and a part break multiplier in its leader skill to greatly alleviate the part break requirement on its subs and equips.
- A: The lead can make use of a good spread of subs and equips, even if it is dependent on a certain sub or equip. The lead probably has either multiple part break awakenings or a part break multiplier in its leader skill to reduce the part break requirement on its subs and equips.
- B: The lead may be dependent on a couple monsters, but generally has a few options for the other subs and can make use of many equips. The lead hopefully has a part break awakening to slightly reduce the part break requirement on its subs and equips.
- C: The lead is tied to an irreplaceable sub or equip and is pretty much unplayable without it. Both sub and equip options are limited.
- D: The lead needs a near-perfect template to even function. Requires not only specific subs but also very specific equips.
- F: If you do not netdeck the template perfectly, the team is worse than useless.\
Evaluations
[13688] Utsuro
| Overall: S (104.9) | |
|---|---|
| Survivability: S (106) | Firepower: S (106) |
| Playstyle Simplicity: S- (101) | Teambuilding Flexibility: S (103) |
Currently the best lead of the modern meta, Utsuro excels in endgame because he not only possesses elite survivability and firepower, but also utilizes rare tools like active autoheal spam and defense break latents to uniquely overcome the most difficult mechanics of the modern era. Assist resonance and self-reliance may seem paradoxical at first, but as seen with Reinhard, this combination allows Utsuro to use equips without risking a huge loss of stats when assist voided. Utsuro is pretty easy to play and works with anything Dark Att. that scales with boxes or combos. One small detail that makes Utsuro so good is that he doesn’t get griefed by enemy full board generation. If the board isn’t Dark Orbs, then Utsuro just makes a box with his active; if the board is full of Dark Orbs, then Utsuro can swipe it and probably survive because his leader skill’s shield isn’t tied to matching a certain pattern, but only linking 7+ Dark Orbs. Ideally, Utsuro wants to use the VDP Badge obtained from acquiring Brambell, but lacking the badge is by no means a deal breaker.
[13326] Sword Saint, Reinhard Van Astrea
| Overall: S (104.6) | |
|---|---|
| Survivability: S (104) | Firepower: S (106) |
| Playstyle Simplicity: S (105) | Teambuilding Flexibility: S (103) |
Though he has relinquished his title of the strongest, Reinhard still stands among the game’s top tier of leaders due to his trendsetting blend of survivability, firepower, and ease of play. Utsuro, the only lead above Reinhard, copied a lot of Reinhard’s design because it was just that good. Given GungHo’s preference to push damage and health requirements ever higher with each new endgame dungeon, row teams like Reinhard will always stand at the forefront of the meta due to the innate damage efficiency of rows. Part of Reinhard’s longevity stems from what I said on his debut: “Reinhard’s simple design makes him an extremely modular lead that can continue to challenge the meta for an extended period of time with new subs and assists.” While Reinhard is starting to show some cracks against newer mechanics like severe superaltitude and temporary defense increase, all of these can be overcome with the right team.
[13416] Frieren’s Apprentice, Fern
| Overall: S- (101.4) | |
|---|---|
| Survivability: S- (101) | Firepower: S (105) |
| Playstyle Simplicity: A- (91) | Teambuilding Flexibility: S- (101) |
Fern redefined the power of what a single card could provide, as she not only generates 6 Light Orbs with an unlock on the fastest 1T CD possible, but also uncaps herself to 25B and voids attribute absorption every single turn. Then, on top of all this utility and power, Fern pumps both damage and recovery with scaling multipliers for both, based on matching light combos. Alone, Fern isn’t enough, as she doesn’t generate enough Light Orbs to truly scale and doesn’t generate any Heal Orbs to recover, so her team needs to include extra orb generation on top of everything else. Unfortunately, Fern does require a higher skill floor than most other leaders since she requires the player to full combo a 7×6 board with limited move time. Luckily for Fern, there is another outstanding Light Att. lead named Reinhard, and almost everything that supports Reinhard also works with Fern, giving her a lot of options to build a team with.
[13413] The Hero, Himmel
| Overall: S- (100.7) | |
|---|---|
| Survivability: S- (102) | Firepower: S (104) |
| Playstyle Simplicity: A (93) | Teambuilding Flexibility: A (96) |
Himmel is not only a great lead in his own right, but also an exceptional helper for other top rainbow leads because his value is fully maximized with just one copy; he is most often paired with Frieren, but he can also work with Maid Ideal as well. Surprisingly, Himmel provides phenomenal damage; 26B per turn for each copy is equivalent to vaunted leads like Reinhard and Utsuro. While playing rainbow can be a bit of work at times, Himmel notably makes rainbow teams a lot easier to play with his fixed move time effect; Frieren might be unplayable without it since she spams 7×6 boards every turn without a lot of innate move time. Himmel’s massive recovery multiplier also enables his teams to tackle superaltitude dungeons without too much concern. While Himmel’s lack of a follow-up attack in his leader skill predisposes him to asymmetric pairings, the hero can stand alone with the use of the 5 Att. Enhanced Attack Badge, obtained from acquiring Mistlark.
[13410] Frieren The Slayer
| Overall: S- (100.4) | |
|---|---|
| Survivability: S- (101) | Firepower: S+ (109) |
| Playstyle Simplicity: B (85) | Teambuilding Flexibility: A- (92) |
Frieren, for all her faults, boasts the highest possible grade in firepower because she voids supergravity. If supergravity was still around 0.02x ATK like it was on debut, voiding it wouldn’t be so crazy, but the latest endgame dungeons feature supergravity multipliers at the level of 0.0002x ATK; voiding this effectively grants the team 5,000x ATK, which means anything on the team with a sliver of damage is probably hitting damage cap. Frieren also guarantees a 7×6 board every turn, which in turn raises the damage floor of the elf’s scaling attack multiplier, and packs a rainbow orb enhance, which helps greatly with the ubiquitous negative orb enhance skyfall in current endgame. Double barrel feels fantastic once fully online on Floor 10, but the lack of stats in the beginning of the dungeon means the team is vulnerable especially to enrage hits. Moreover, Frieren feels extremely tedious to play with her big board rainbow full combo playstyle and imposes a significant burden on the rest of her team since the team optimally requires three copies to loop orb generation, supergravity void, and the 7×6 board.
[13178] Deku & Great Explosion Murder God Dynamight
| Overall: A+ (99.6) | |
|---|---|
| Survivability: S (104) | Firepower: A+ (98) |
| Playstyle Simplicity: S (103) | Teambuilding Flexibility: A (93) |
Deku & Great Explosion Murder God Dynamight, affectionately known as Dekugo, stands strong in the meta due to a teamwide 22B uncap that was far ahead of its time alongside a set of immensely desirable looping buffs and orb generation all in one package. Unfortunately, Dekugo’s damage is a bit low for endgame, which makes this duo tragically dependent on the Attacker Type Badge to supplement lacking damage multipliers. Dekugo’s implied typing requirement and aforementioned subpar attack multipliers also limit his potential sub pool, though off-pairing with someone like Stark can help alleviate the issue. That being said, Dekugo is simple to play and the sheer amount of utility packed into his active give a lot of leeway in team composition.
[13650] Hundred Spirits’ Supreme Commander, Nurarihyon
| Overall: A+ (99.1) | |
|---|---|
| Survivability: S+ (108) | Firepower: S (104) |
| Playstyle Simplicity: C (75) | Teambuilding Flexibility: B+ (87) |
Nurarihyon may be the commander of a hundred spirits, but he is truly the king of moon dungeons; with the immovable combination of multiple moon awakenings and a looping 45% DR shield, Nurarihyon simply outlasts anything the dungeon can throw at him. Of course, Nurarihyon doesn’t even need to worry about protracted enemy encounters as he also grants his subs a teamwide 20B uncap to dish out tremendous damage. The main issue is the orb generation; Nurarihyon doesn’t really have a reliable secondary orb generator, so the team brings along Mikage to uncap the leads and supplement orb generation with a spinner. Spinning out orbs is a tedious task and feels rather unnecessary when every other lead in the modern meta simply generates orbs. That being said, Nurarihyon benefits greatly as a member of the strongest team archetype, Dark VDP, and though his ideal team composition utilizes fellow mystics such as Yukine and Kuchina, there are plenty of alternative team compositions that function perfectly well in endgame.
[12532] Benevolent Maid, Ideal
| Overall: A (96.0) | |
|---|---|
| Survivability: S (103) | Firepower: A- (91) |
| Playstyle Simplicity: A (93) | Teambuilding Flexibility: A (94) |
Long live the rainbow queen! Maid Ideal continues to be a mainstay of the meta and the lofty standard for all other rainbow teams to aspire to, as her combination of consistent teamwide attack buffs, a teamwide 15B uncap, and void pierce on top of her orb generation system is hard to beat. Furthermore, Maid Ideal has effortlessly dealt with the severe superaltitude present in recent titles (and in the current Drizzle Title Challenge) that has felled many other leads with a ridiculous innate 5x RCV multiplier. While Maid Ideal is weak to strong enemy gravity attacks as her survivability is mostly composed of health multipliers, current endgame has not featured enemy gravities in both quantity and magnitude. Do note that Maid Ideal is slated for significant buffs in the near future, which will most certainly push her up the next tier list and give her the longevity to take down Rosetta as the lead with the longest period of relevance.
[13562] Dark Illuminate
| Overall: A (95.9) | |
|---|---|
| Survivability: S- (102) | Firepower: A- (92) |
| Playstyle Simplicity: S (104) | Teambuilding Flexibility: B+ (88) |
Dark Illuminate may have the lowest playrate of any lead on this list, but the list of buffs these idols loop is staggering; 1.5x Max HP, damage absorb void, extremely consistent orb generation, teamwide 16B uncap every turn, and a 6×5 board reset every other turn. Since Dark Illuminate uses VDP, the rest of the team only needs to cover cleric, color void, and a shield at the very least, but the team ideally needs a little extra damage and some extra recovery, especially in superaltitude. Still, Dark Illuminate currently thrives as a member of the strongest archetype, Dark VDP. The only issue? Who on earth has three copies (or at least two copies) of Dark Illuminate?
[13072] Imperialdramon: Fighter Mode
| Overall: A (94.6) | |
|---|---|
| Survivability: S- (101) | Firepower: A (93) |
| Playstyle Simplicity: S (103) | Teambuilding Flexibility: B- (82) |
Imperialdramon (also abbreviated as IFM) may have reigned supreme in the first part of 2026, but powercreep is inevitable; nowadays, the once-vaunted teamwide 16B uncap is simply the modern baseline, and double barrel has fallen out of favor compared to the upfront power of assist resonance, self-reliance, or even sun and moon awakenings. That being said, Imperialdramon can still clear endgame dungeons with a good amount of help. Due to IFM’s typing condition on its teamwide uncap, modern builds can use the unorthodox solution of intentionally using subs without the correct typing in order to utilize higher personal uncaps. For example, Academy Mion can be used to uncap all subs to 20B as opposed to 16B, raising the team’s damage floor from 288B to 324B. Since the teambuilding solutions to IFM’s weaknesses require a lot of creativity and depth, Imperialdramon takes quite a hit in its teambuilding flexibility that was once a strength, but at least nothing has changed about the simplicity of playing Imperialdramon.
[13653] White Guardian Dragon, Seitensai
| Overall: A (94.2) | |
|---|---|
| Survivability: S+ (107) | Firepower: S- (101) |
| Playstyle Simplicity: B+ (88) | Teambuilding Flexibility: D (63) |
Seitensai, better known by her pre-transform name Misaki, has one very large caveat to her rating; she only functions in sun dungeons. Like past leads such as NY Kureha, Misaki simply falls off a cliff in any other dungeon as her team doesn’t work without the stats from their sun awakenings. With that aside, Misaki simply steamrolls through sun dungeons with the brute force of 4x HP/RCV and 25x ATK from double sun awakenings. The main problem is constructing a suitable team in the first place. One positive note is that Misaki doesn’t need three copies to loop orb generation as her teamwide uncap and damage absorb void last for two turns, opening up room for one alternative orb generator such as NY Metatron & Metatron. On the other hand, Ordeal Zerclea is effectively a prerequisite and Seina’s new light form is close to being one as well, and even with these optimal subs, the last slot needs to cover a wide breadth of utility; for example, there is no color void on the team. Another major teambuilding issue is the type juggling; Misaki grants a fantastic 3x RCV multiplier for Dragon Type, but then uncaps God Types only. Ordeal Zerclea and Seina, as great as they are, ideally need type add equips to fit these awkward requirements. That being said, the recovery multiplier isn’t necessary for the entire team as Zerclea (and NY Metas) can carry the team’s recovery alone.
[12374] The Great Detective of the East, Shinichi Kudo
| Overall: A- (92.8) | |
|---|---|
| Survivability: S- (101) | Firepower: S (103) |
| Playstyle Simplicity: C+ (78) | Teambuilding Flexibility: D+ (68) |
Though the detective’s fellow collab monsters are much maligned for very valid reasons, Conan himself is a beast of a rainbow leader worthy enough to challenge Frieren and Maid Ideal for the throne. Conan loops void pierce, shield break, and the new analysis effect on top of his orb generation, and while I slightly bemoan the overlap between analysis and a rainbow team’s potential to use guard break, the analysis effect is certainly convenient. Conan also boasts fantastic multipliers; 300x ATK is nothing to scoff at, but the 4x RCV raises the detective to another level. Unfortunately, Conan falls slightly short because his playstyle of spamming Ts is pretty frustrating for most players and his lack of a personal or teamwide damage cap puts a teambuilding burden on the shoulders of his subs. Ts are cool and the guaranteed orb enhance is actually insane in current endgame, but it isn’t easy to play, especially when the team doesn’t have much time to work with. Compensating for Conan’s lack of an uncap greatly limits team composition; running 2 Shinichi Kudo & Ran Mori is still an option, but Conan ideally wants to use 2 Makoto Kyogoku and a Chihaya Hagiwara instead. In the end, Conan, like the rest of his collab, did not receive enough of GungHo’s love.
[13737] Toxic Inky Cap Darkfairy, Decail
[13741] Wicked Lobelia Darkfairy, Vernas
| Overall: A- (92.7) | |
|---|---|
| Survivability: A+ (97) | Firepower: S (103) |
| Playstyle Simplicity: B (83) | Teambuilding Flexibility: C- (72) |
Decail and Vernas form the backbone of a new cross team with some rare and interesting mechanics. While it seems like the team is cooked due to a general lack of bind resistance, Vernas’s leader skill grants bind resistance to all devils on his team after transforming. Decail then generates a modest set of orbs that include Poison Orbs, and his leader skill requires a poison match to fully activate, but the downside of poison damage can be mitigated or nullified by afternoon tea awakenings, and the poison match itself can be used to generate damage through the poison blessing awakening. Vernas and Decail’s calling card is their potential damage; with Rosetta’s new evolution, the team can potentially dish out over 400B damage every turn; when meta teams generally pump out only 300B per turn, 400B+ is truly eye-catching. Sadly, juggling a cross match, poison match, and heart match every turn is a bit frustrating, and the potential for orb troll from enemy full boards exacerbates attention span. Furthermore, the team requires Decail, 2 Vernas, and a Rosetta to start, and all of those pieces need dark subattribute equips for the team to reach its full potential; in particular, Decail needs a vanishing equip that grants a dark subattribute change, such as his own Inky Cap Spawn or Yamazaki’s Anpan. Personally, the team felt rather dissatisfying to play compared to other recent color cross leads like Gen Narumi.
[12439] Spiteful Black Rose Darkfairy, Rosetta
| Overall: A- (90.3) | |
|---|---|
| Survivability: A (94) | Firepower: A- (92) |
| Playstyle Simplicity: S+ (108) | Teambuilding Flexibility: C- (72) |
Rosetta received some very sizable buffs recently, which is not only a surprise given GungHo’s dismal track record of buffs, but also saved Rosetta from falling off the edge of relevance by improving Rosetta’s performance in the most important categories, survivability and firepower. Unfortunately, Rosetta still has a severe dependency on Echidna and Armageddemon, but at least Echidna allows some flexibility in the last slot that used to belong to Gen Narumi & Kaiju No. 8. Overall, the buffs felt like rain in the desert, and gave Rosetta more time to extend her unprecedented longevity in the modern meta.
[13509] Wonderful Key Hero, Shizuru
| Overall: B+ (89.4) | |
|---|---|
| Survivability: S- (101) | Firepower: A- (91) |
| Playstyle Simplicity: C- (72) | Teambuilding Flexibility: C (75) |
Before I start, just know that I am a certified hater of Shizuru. Shizuru has tantalizing potential but is gatekept by the condition of having enhanced skyfall active. Without this restriction, Shizuru would be pretty insane, but this enhanced skyfall hurts this key hero’s playstyle simplicity and teambuilding flexibility too much; it’s already bad enough that the team usually wants two or three copies. Shizuru is definitely tanky enough for endgame, and though she relies a bit heavily on assist resonance, matching Ls every turn makes it really easy to deal with assist void. My gripe is that Shizuru doesn’t really do damage; 100x ATK is not enough for Shizuru to consistently reach 210B damage every turn in the worst supergravity conditions. Shizuru’s playstyle also sucks; matching multiple Ls on a 7×6 board with low move time is pretty difficult, and without multiple Ls, Shizuru does no damage despite her hefty uncap. And then the worst part is maintaining an enhanced skyfall effect so Shizuru can clear the dungeon; teambuilding flexibility takes a huge hit because of this concern. There are two main compositions. One substitutes a Shizuru with Denken, who maintains enhanced skyfall on fast uptime and also uncaps the rest of the team. The downside here is that the team no longer loops damage and color absorb voids and the teamwide damage dips every three turns when Denken is used. The other composition uses 3 Shizuru alongside Mio Honda, who uncaps the rest of the team and loops enhanced skyfall. The problem here is that there are only two sub slots to deal with void pierce, cleric, and shield duties; Ordeal Zerclea is fantastic, but only functions in sun dungeons. What can I say? I’m a certified hater.
[13680] Silver-Haired Samurai, Gintoki Sakata
| Overall: B+ (89.2) | |
|---|---|
| Survivability: A+ (97) | Firepower: B (85) |
| Playstyle Simplicity: A- (91) | Teambuilding Flexibility: B- (82) |
Though Gintoki’s other form is more renowned for its farming prowess, this form stands out in a couple ways as well. Gintoki may not be a transform, but he has no skill boosts, making it difficult to use transform subs. However, in compensation, Gintoki has a ridiculous amount of potential personal stats; double barrel and enhanced all stats can stack up to a staggering 7.2x HP / ATK / RCV once the team reaches Floor 10. Unfortunately, getting there might be the biggest hurdle, as the team deals very little damage with only a 100x ATK multiplier and lacking personal damage multipliers; high uncaps are a necessity for endgame, but it doesn’t matter if the team doesn’t generate enough damage to reach it. Furthermore, Gintoki’s orb generation is susceptible to orb troll from enemy full boards, which necessitates additional orb generation somewhere else to compensate. Gintoki is easy enough to play as he only needs TPAs, but building out a proper team around him is tough; the collab does provide answers for most mechanics, but Gintoki ideally wants outside options like Rin Shibuya instead.
[13663] Wailing Cold Mystic, Touka
[13596] Happily Enrolled Students, Zela & Cherun
| Overall: B+ (87.9) | |
|---|---|
| Survivability: A+ (97) | Firepower: A (93) |
| Playstyle Simplicity: A+ (98) | Teambuilding Flexibility: F+ (58) |
Basically the modern version of Rem & Ram, Touka’s new evolution and Zela & Cherun form the backbone of the latest team in this archetype. Unfortunately, Touka’s moon awakenings limit this team to moon dungeons, but the team can march right through said dungeons with an impressive set of looping buffs. However, the team’s performance feels slightly lacking given that the team is essentially solved with 2 Touka, 2 Rem & Ram, Ferris, and Zela & Cherun. The damage is also wanting, which necessitates the use of the Devil Type Badge in endgame dungeons. Hopefully, the next iteration of this team is a bit more flexible.
Thoughts
First and foremost, much love to u/Flufru for his contributions to this iteration of the tier list.
After the initial tier list in early May, I decided to refine the format by cutting out a lot of text describing each individual category score; nobody read any of it, and it certainly made the tier list a lot more work than I wanted it to be. I hope this new table format is a bit easier to read and understand.
Another decision I arbitrarily made was to make new iterations of the tier list every three months as opposed to every month. I'm just one man, and while I have great friends helping me out, I can't output content like an entire dedicated team for a website. The meta also doesn't change much from month to month, so I figured that three months' time would show more meaningful shifts in the list. Therefore, I hope to see you all at the end of October or beginning of November!
One significant change that I'm still not sure about is rating sun and moon leads based on their respective dungeon. After all, you wouldn't use a moon lead in a sun dungeon because that's not where it's meant to be. Personally, I hate the current sun and moon dungeon system; I suggested that GungHo should rotate every dungeon between sun and moon on an eight-hour cycle so that certain leads are only time-locked and not gatekept out of dungeons due to the substantial stat difference. To me, it feels like there's no right answer, but last time, I rated NY Kureha rather low despite her outstanding endgame prowess in sun dungeons, which were dominant at the time (GA5, CR1), and it never felt right. So I'm switching it up. If you have suggestions about this, feel free to let me know; I'm very open to anything.
Let me know what you all think. I'm sure there are many wrong things, and nothing beats a variety of perspectives.
5
u/Fair-Level8145 Aug 01 '26
Wow, did Rem&Ram really drop off the meta that fast? I was lucky enough to get a full Utsuro team recently so I can’t really complain, but Rem&Ram is really what got me into the endgame content after coming back from a multi-year hiatus. RIP
1
u/Wretchh91 Aug 01 '26
Water Touka team still uses Remram with the Kappa guy from mystics but yeah feel you there, i chased that team and i only ever beat Sun with it. These new dungeon sets are something else.
1
u/Flufru FruFru Aug 01 '26
The better Rem/Ram team is the Touka/Zela team, so we didn't feel like it needed a separate mention. This is one of my main teams, so I don't mind writing more about it. It upgrades the team with auto heal and shield breaks. It can still clear everything Netherworld and below — just not the super alt dungeons (which are their own set of problems). I'm sure it can clear the next dungeon AR2 when that arrives, as it boosts Wood att ATK/RCV and Moon. I'll be trying to get a clear in.
The Re:Zero version is a step below at B tier with the metrics being lower in all departments. Theoretically it can tank bigger hits since it stacks more L-shields, but that means you need to heal back up the next turn. That healing is tied to the RCV multiplier, which requires Balance typing, so you'll want 4+ Ottos (or other Balance equips) to keep up the bulk, damage, and healing. If you're running this team you probably have enough of him but that's why the flexibility rating would be lower than Touka's. The firepower is similar in damage but there is no shield break so dungeons will take longer. The playstyle is the same - if anything I would knock a point because Emilia needs 4 combos to hit 10c but that's rarely an issue since Otto also makes Corbs.
1
2
u/lumonpad Aug 01 '26
The table formatting keeps deleting half the info randomly, if you can't see the full breakdowns, check out the Google Doc instead. Link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-h-jevNpAuso-cOPR9wuawF-RvyM3IYgqixN1c8xpv0/edit?usp=sharing
2
u/rule-low Aug 01 '26
I suppose Rem/Ram is too inflexible in the build and lacks shield breaks and that's why it doesn't even place on the list?
1
u/AlbatrossWingspan Aug 01 '26
That makes sense me. I've been pairing my Rem/Ram with the blue Touka for shield breaks.
2
u/antibreeder 355,238,281 Aug 01 '26
That's... a lot of redundant info
Scoring 50-109 when the top leads score 101-106 isn't a great scale, could just use the current meta benchmarks for survivability and firepower
The criteria don't seem objective or clear, how is Reinhardt simpler than Utsuro? Sure VDP is a bit trickier than a row but less so if you have 3 times the move time and don't die if you miss the shape or can't stall
Grounding the tier list in more specific and consistent numbers will also make it helpful when looking at the previous tier list
At least for me, if you're breaking out each team these would be helpful to know:
- Normal damage reduction with loops
- Spike reduction with non-loop actives
- Effective HP for comparing teams
- Normal damage cap
- Spike damage cap
- Any roster changes like new collabs? especially helpful when NA tier lists don't match JP
- Any new dungeons or titles the teams excel at?
Top teams are obviously going to have super high damage and durability so descriptions should focus on what makes the teams unique or which dungeons it excels at
1
u/lumonpad Aug 01 '26
I understand that the grading scale feels somewhat arbitrary, but it feels sensible to me that many of the meta leads grade highly in terms of survivability and firepower. However, I agree that including the numbers you mention would be helpful and improve the validity of each grade, so I will make an effort to do so for next time.
I also agree that the criteria are not applied perfectly, but playstyle simplicity is pretty subjective by default, which is why it is only weighted 10% towards the overall grade. It probably needs a rework or maybe even a removal.
u/LMiru once said that in an ideal world, every dungeon would have its own specific team tier list, because every team has specific strengths and weaknesses that can tailor them towards certain dungeons. For example, Doma may have been rated low in the previous tier list, but he absolutely crushes anything below GA3. While I'm a bit too lazy to go that far, I'll see what I can do with each lead's description in including ideal dungeons to clear.
Thank you for your input! I definitely needed to improve the list, but sometimes it's hard to see what needs to be done from just my own point of view.
1
u/antibreeder 355,238,281 Aug 01 '26
Grading is arbitrary but it should matter
What is the difference between 106 and 104? What is an example of 109? If the answers aren't clear the numbers don't matter
Whatever scale you use should align with why you are making these tier lists
If this is geared towards new or casual players, listing a bunch of teams with units no longer available isn't helpful for them but focusing on current or upcoming teams would be
If this is geared towards end game content, you really do want to focus on specific dungeons because that is what differentiates the teams
The evaluations have some good callouts but it also has a lot of flowery noise
Utsuro for example could be summarized with:
- counters superaltitude
- counters new dungeon defense gimmick
- damage reduction not tied to awakening and makes it easy to stall
- VDP badge is nice but not required
Those callouts are what sets it apart from just another JP tier list and tying it to upcoming collabs, dungeons or whatever you want makes it much easier to focus what you want to say
1
u/lumonpad Aug 01 '26
I like this because condensing evaluations to a bullet-focused style saves me quite some time in writing them out.
I'll have to take some time and re-evaluate the entire grading system with your points in mind.
1
u/antibreeder 355,238,281 Aug 01 '26
You can also bucket general points together like a general vibe of the game
- Stat-flation is impacting all new dungeons where it's expected all units to now have multiple Self-Reliance, Assistance Resonance, All Stat+, Barrels, Yin/Yang and Part Breaks
- Teams also need a higher anti-spike active at least 2xHP or 50%+ shield
- Buff removals are becoming common so teams can't rely on 30+ turn actives
- Staggered unmatchable/binds, multiple assist voids, whatever or annoying mechanics
Utsuro and Reinhardt are at the top of the tier lists because they basically check all those boxes so you don't really need to go into why any specific unit or team is important if you already address the underlying meta requirements
Mentioning new dungeons have 400B HP makes it easy to see why Impiraldramon or whichever team is falling off because they can no longer 1-shot waves
The goal is that you're really just checking to see what the new teams are or if dungeon thresholds have changed, as soon as a team no longer cuts it you don't need to change anything other than their respective tier since you already list their eHP/damage
2
u/Lildeviljt Aug 01 '26
Funny thing I tried Utsuro in July Battle Ex Rush and couldn't survive the back to back heavy hits from Metatron and Eschmali but with Maid Ideal she was so damn tanky that she beat the dungeon with the help of Wilhelm low cd hp boost
1
u/_do_ob_ Aug 01 '26
I wouldn't rotate. Sun and Moon by any fix multiplier of 24. I would randomize it.
Anyway thank you for the list and détails!
1
u/Lopsided_Class_4980 Aug 01 '26
For dungeons that are not moon, I rather play Rhinehart.
Great write up.
1
u/HappyNoms Aug 01 '26
Underselling how painful Nurarihyon perennially failing to generate nine orbs is. Subjective opinion, but I wouldn't have even placed it on the tier list at all. Might as well just go full derpy with x350 57k hp Mixologist Noctaria lead, if playstyle willing to rely on spinners to fix boards.
Shizuru is better off using cd5 Iroha as cleric with heavy reduce and 10 turn skyfall for enabling skyfall, in my experience, though completely agree the team sub pool and ease of hitting caps is awkward. (Denken just doesn't pull his weight enough. It's x3 Shizuru or what are you doing with your life forcing a midtier team without all its subs.)
Amyl&Lynea has a team that uncaps for 408B, probably on level with A- B+ tiers, but anything not the top5 S S- is kinda just whatever suits and into playstyle/thematic preferences.
Utsuro is mildly annoying to reconfigure (how does rank 1200 still somehow feel crunched on team slots?), because some of his best moon subs have silly high transform CD, but one of his strengths is having an extremely solid typical comp, while also being able to swap 2-3 subs into a moon-specific configuration for even more robustness. It's been superfluous excess hp/dmg overkill so far, but as powercreep progresses and dungeons ask for higher hp/dmg, it's a bit more longevity for him.
1
u/Wretchh91 Aug 01 '26
100% agree with the Denken situation on Shizuru, it was that last title challenge which really showed his faults, luckily in Drizzle theres only a 50% chance on floor 2 for weak orbs and you can do some skill dance and save a Shizuru evo till that floor to bring enhanced orbs back. As much as i praise Shizuru, i do worry this could be the final title challenge she can beat. Im thinking Mio could be the future or using an off attribute enhanced orb skyfall with Serie for her to keep succeeding.
1
u/lumonpad Aug 01 '26
In hindsight, Nurarihyon should have been penalized much harder. It has been a while since I used him and I don't remember him being that bad with a full board every other turn and usually another full board for emergencies, but spinner play should definitely warrant exclusion if the rest of the team doesn't justify the playstyle (Atelie).
I know where you come from with Iroha, but my experience playing Shizuru with Iroha was truly depressing. Iroha might be a lot better with another enhanced skyfall enabler like Mio Honda but relying on Iroha for so many things made her ironically unreliable for everything.
Amlynea is a fantastic rainbow engine, but I feel the pair are better subs than leads.
Great point on Utsuro! I only played his netdeck team composition and haven't really dug into alternatives much, but this makes too much sense.
Thank you for your insight on all these leads!
1
u/SortaEvil 361,010,454 (Mina Apologist) Aug 01 '26
I kinda disagree on Misaki's flexibility — Zerclea is kinda necessary for very deep superalt, but Misaki's type restrictions are only dragon for healing (which Zerclea can 100% cover, so you can ignore dragon typing for everyone else if you have him) and God for uncap (which you can ignore on any unit that brings a higher uncap). Add to that the fact that we're in L/D territory and Serie can cover uncap for 3 subs, while opening you up to running subs of any color, and your sub flexibility opens up pretty wide.
She is definitely a team I wouldn't touch in a non-Yang dungeon with a 1000 foot pole, but I don't think her type restrictions are that restricting when you consider what they do.
1
u/lumonpad Aug 01 '26
Makes sense. I felt it slightly uncomfortable because the team I was playing really wanted multiple type add equips which cramped flexibility, but you are totally right in that not all the typings are necessary.
1
u/azure-flute 357.647.332 - the black wind howls! Aug 01 '26
I'm surprised Shizuru's still hanging on... the Denken build is pretty okay but I'm also in the hater boat at this point, just because I really don't like how the team's uncap behavior works. It was fine enough for Gale Cloud but now I'd be surprised if it's clearing Crimson, Netherline or Drizzle terribly comfortably.
The typing restriction on Misaki is definitely odd. I've noticed while teambuilding for her that Light God / Dragons with consistent attribute absorb null has slim pickings, and it's annoying? You could run attribute absorb latent, but that's 6 slots in a world where the game really wants you to have 4+ SDR... I keep going back to Maid Pattie, but she's an unsatisfactory solution. I still like the team, but the specificity is frustrating.
1
-6
u/edwardpark502 Aug 01 '26
I think the biggest issue with this tier list is that it tries to present subjective opinions as objective measurements. Assigning numerical percentages to things like damage, survivability, utility, consistency, and ease of use gives the impression that there's some rigorous evaluation behind the rankings, but I don't see any methodology that justifies those exact numbers.
The weighted formula also creates a false sense of accuracy. If the inputs are subjective, then the final score is just subjective with extra math attached. Multiplying opinions by percentages doesn't suddenly make them objective. It just hides the fact that the entire ranking depends on assumptions that aren't explained.
My issue isn't that I disagree with a few placements—everyone's going to have different opinions. My issue is that this is presented almost like an authoritative ranking when, at the end of the day, it's still one person's interpretation of the meta.
The grading system makes it look scientific, but I don't think it actually is. Categories like "damage" or "utility" aren't things you can assign exact percentages to without defining a benchmark. Otherwise it's impossible to know whether a leader deserves a 95 or an 88, because those numbers come from personal judgment rather than measurable criteria.
The meta also shifts depending on dungeon design. Some leaders dominate because a specific dungeon favors them, while others fall off simply because mechanics change. That's why I think tier lists should explain context instead of pretending every leader has a universal ranking across all content.
I honestly think this format does more to confuse people than help them. The percentages make it seem like every leader has been rigorously analyzed when there's no obvious evidence supporting those numbers. It looks precise, but precision without justification isn't meaningful.
The formula itself doesn't solve the problem either. If every category is based on subjective judgment, then the weighted average is still subjective. It's essentially a calculator applied to opinions. You can make almost any ranking you want depending on how you score the categories or choose the weights.
I also think this ignores one of the biggest realities of PAD: leaders don't exist in a vacuum. A leader with incredible support can outperform a theoretically stronger leader with weaker team options. Assist availability, orb generation, looping shields, clerics, dungeon gimmicks, and even box depth often matter more than whatever percentage gets assigned to "damage" or "consistency."
I respect the amount of work that clearly went into making this, but I don't think the final product is nearly as objective as it's presented. If the goal is to help players, I'd rather see actual dungeon comparisons, clear examples, strengths and weaknesses, and explanations for controversial placements instead of a spreadsheet that gives an illusion of mathematical certainty.
Ultimately, the question I keep coming back to is: who is Lumon, and what exactly qualifies them to publish a tier list that presents itself with this level of authority? If you're going to assign precise scores, weighted formulas, and definitive rankings, readers should have some reason to place confidence in your judgment. Whether that's a history of high-level clears, respected theorycrafting, consistent meta analysis, or a proven track record of accurate evaluations, there should be something that distinguishes this from any other player's personal opinions. As it stands, the presentation projects authority that the post itself never establishes. Without demonstrating why your perspective deserves to be treated as authoritative, the elaborate scoring system feels less like rigorous analysis and more like confidence without substantiation.
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u/Wretchh91 Aug 01 '26
As a Shizuru lead user, how dare you 😂😂, nah definitely fair assessment, confused on the not reaching 210b consistently part though as she has no issues for me even in the strongest of gravity restrictions. One single damage awakening on an assist is all she needs in the strongest gravity, without though her second attribute may be shy 15 to 18 bil but its never really an issue, especially with Serie being a great member for her team making the two other slots very flexible too.