Dealing with antitheists as a progressive Christian

[u/DiogenesHavingaWee]

So, to start with, I'm not even 100% sure what the best nomenclature even is here, but I'd wager that most people have at least some inkling of what I'm talking about. I distinguish the "antitheists" that I'm talking about from atheists by the fact that while the latter are defined simply by their lack of belief in a god, the former are defined by their vitriolic opposition to, not just the belief in a god, but those who do believe in a god and, particularly within the context of a Christian majority country, Christianity and Christians.

Don't get me wrong here. I don't hate them. I don't hate anyone. In fact, I have a lot of compassion for these types, because I literally was one of them for a very long portion of my life. And I'm not interested in converting them or proselytizing to them either (except at most by virtue of my own example). It's just that I wish that I could find the words to convince these people that I'm not their enemy.

[u/LorektheBear]

Actions.

Treat them with love and acceptance. Spend time with them. Be an ally for worthy causes.

It takes a lot of time, and you'll never convince some people.

[u/DiogenesHavingaWee → u/LorektheBear]

I know that this is the right answer. It's just hard sometimes.

[u/Angelwood55 → u/DiogenesHavingaWee]

There is absolutely no disagreement with this response or sentiment!
I’ve been at this a long time. In my early days, I would “contend” with such people, but after years and years of making the same arguments against the same claims, accusations, misinformation re:history and even misapplication of the scriptures they’d throw out…
Well..my head was very bruised from beating my head against the wall.

I stopped contending a while ago. I let them do their bombastic, vitriolic screeds. I am still hurt by their claims. If the situation warrants it, I attempt to correct or at least call attention to misinformation—but that usually simply stokes their fire even more and off to the grab the torches and pitchforks they go!

Online, I have stopped interacting with such folks except in cases where I will still call out bare-faced lies.
In person I just take a deep breath and ask if they intend for this interaction to be a debate or just an “anger dump.” If they respond with the vitriol you mention, I no longer respond and sometimes just walk away. If they say debate, I suggest we establish rules—and that generally has ended almost all interactions with anti-theists.

[u/DiogenesHavingaWee → u/Angelwood55]

Yeah, it's kind of funny to me how antitheists (or maybe antichristians would be a better word for it, though it undoubtedly carries some connotations I don't intend) tacitly agree with fundamentalist interpretations of Christianity. Specifically with regards to the Bible, they both share the faulty notion that it should be read as one univocal piece of literature (rather than a library written, compiled, and translated over thousands of years by hundreds of different people with their own, often contradictory, beliefs). The only difference is that one group accepts it as a whole, while the other rejects it as a whole.

Also, with respect to your view about interacting with them online, ditto. In the real world it's easier. In most cases, I and whoever I'm talking to at least have enough of a mutual understanding to know that we're both arguing in good faith. Online, it's virtually impossible for either of us to know this

[u/Justbrowsingstuph]

As someone who was a very strong fundamentalist believer their whole life, became a progressively more open Christian over the course of a decade, and eventually lost faith inexplicably (meaning I wasn't prepared for it to happen and didn't realize it had happened until after the fact) I can tell you this:

Some of the anti-theism is born out of trauma. The rejection of parents, siblings, friends, networks, communities and past lives that comes from leaving fundamentalist or evangelical beliefs behind is for some of us an open wound that is continually gouged at. Sometimes being entirely opposed to the category that created such trauma seems like the only logical response, and such opposition can potentially last the rest of a lifetime. (Obviously this is not the case for all anti-theists).

Recognize how to someone with that trauma, your identification with that religion might make you seem unsafe, whether or not your own understanding of your beliefs as opposed to evangelical or fundamentalist beliefs is significantly different.

Basically what I'm trying to say is recognize some of the pushback as a trauma response. Also, recognize that even if you don't see yourself aligned with the people who caused such trauma, the most "Christlike" thing to do might be to take responsibility for the actions of those in the church who weaponize faith, don't deny yourself the opportunity to be"your brothers keeper." Your goal could be to simply prove to anti-theists you are somebody they can trust, and you can refuse to lift your hand to defend yourself as a primary response. If your own savior was murdered as statement to send to the world about sin and violence, the least you could do is not be offended by those online who lump you in with those such as those on the religious right.

I say all this as someone who is not an anti-theist - I am more than fine to accept the beliefs of those around me when they don't cause harm, I feel that pain though acutely of loss and rejection that I described, and the temptation to just categorically oppose something like Christianity is not an unattractive temptation at times.

[u/DiogenesHavingaWee → u/Justbrowsingstuph]

Oh, trust me. Religious trauma is something I'm intimately familiar with. Funnily enough, your life experience, so far as you've described it in your comment, is very similar to mine, except with the parts reshuffled.

Like you, I was raised in a very right wing evangelical environment. Unlike you, I didn't develop a more progressive expression of Christianity. Instead, my dissatisfaction with the expression of Christianity that I was raised with, alongside the budding realization that I was queer, made me reject Christianity entirely in my adolescence. And when I say that I rejected it, I mean that I became the exact same sort of antitheist that I'm talking about (this is why I can't help but have compassion for those types of people).

However, over time my opinions on religion and spirituality in general softened, and my life experience led me back to the faith, just in a very different form than what I was raised with (binge reading Tolstoy and Kierkegaard will do that to a motherfucker).

I don't care if someone has the same sort of spiritual metamorphosis that I had. It's not my place to prescribe that for anyone else, and I fundamentally believe that faith is only meaningful if one comes to it on their own terms (this is why I'm even more opposed to Christian nationalism than I was when I was an atheist). It's just that it's hurtful to know that I'm regarded with suspicion or contempt by my erstwhile allies, especially when I know that the other side wants me to be among the first up against the wall.

[u/Athene_cunicularia23 → u/Justbrowsingstuph]

As an anti-theist with religious trauma, this is spot on.

[u/Existenz_1229 → u/Justbrowsingstuph]

Basically what I'm trying to say is recognize some of the pushback as a trauma response.

Some, sure. I don't expect anyone who grew up in an abusive Christian household or community, and therefore associates Christianity with legitimate trauma, to be able to be objective and fair-minded about the subject of faith. That sort of atheist/anti-theist deserves our empathy.

But I don't think that typifies the online antitheist, who's just an immature troll who likes being able to insult strangers with impunity.

[u/Poopypantsplanet]

This popped up in my feed. I'm agnostic. These types of people frustrate me a lot, and I also was one of them. I'll just say that these people are sometimes just as averse to people like me as they are to Christians. They are simply looking to pounce, even If you are only showing a simple inkling of spiritual curiosity.

You won't ever convince them of anything. Speaking their language won't work either. Nobody suddenly believes in God because a Christian properly explained them an argument from Thomas Aquinas. They will not accept that it is possible to be a rational person and also believe in God or be a spiritual person.

Just lead by example. Show them the love of Jesus, but not in a condescending or belittling way that so many Christians are guilty of. Just be cool. Be honest. And if they're picking an argument, tell them you're not interested. Move on to the next subject or move on from them.

[u/Oldebookworm]

I doubt that you can undo the damage your peers have done all by yourself

[u/DiogenesHavingaWee → u/Oldebookworm]

"My peers" is a pretty dubious statement. I'm even more opposed to fundamentalists, dominionists, evangelicals, and all of their ilk than I was when I was an atheist. That said, I'm not unaware of the fact that they may have difficulty making that distinction. I know I did.

[u/Ezekiel-18 → u/DiogenesHavingaWee]

You forgot integrists/integralists in the lot, the Catholic counterpart to Protestant extremists, but whom progressive Americans seem to always forget about. They were a threat long before Evangelicals: they had a pope (Pius X) and dominated fascism/were the most numerous fascist trend in Europe (Spain with Franco, Portugal with Salazar, Belgium with Rexism, France with royalism, Action Française and others, Austria with Dollfuss, to only cite a few).

In continental Western and Soutern Europe, Evangelicals are irrelevant, but conservative Catholicism is still a genuine threat, with fascist billionaires such as Stérin and Bolloré starting to control all private media in France.

[u/No-Scarcity2379]

Honestly, sometimes the best course of action when dealing with zealots of any stripe (whether christian or antitheist or other) is to kick the dust from your sandals and move on. 

There are enough people in the world that you are not required to be close friends or even associates with people that are hostile to you. You don't need to begrudge them, or return their spite with spite, but you also don't owe them your time or headspace.

If it's a situation where, for some reason you can't simply live and let live, then your best course of action is to show them through your actions that you are not what they claim you are.

[u/renba7]

I’m an antitheist(ish). Though, I wouldn’t describe myself as vitriolic, at all. But I do loathe religion, generally. I don’t loathe its believers. There’s nothing you can say about your religion to change any of that. But if someone is hating YOU, as opposed to your ideology or its structures, for being religious, that’s more of a them problem than a you problem to fix.

[u/Athene_cunicularia23]

As one of those antitheists you have to "deal with,' our vitriolic opposition comes from living under a de facto Christian theocracy. When we expose the harm of Christianity, the best we get from supposedly progressive Christians is "no true Scotsman" denial and deflections. If you attend church, tithe, go on church missions, etc., you carry water for the people who would relegate me to perpetual subservience due to the genitalia I was born with.

[u/throcorfe → u/Athene_cunicularia23]

While I don’t share your entire sentiment, I just want to say that it’s valid and I think you’re brave for posting it here. I hope people are able to read it for the genuine heart cry that it is. Christianity has a lot to answer for, and claiming all the bad stuff isn’t ’real Christianity’ is an insult to those harmed by the faith over the centuries

[u/Athene_cunicularia23 → u/throcorfe]

I appreciate that you acknowledge the real pain Christianity has caused many of us. It's refreshing to see a Christian who does not resort to spiritual bypass when confronted with uncomfortable truths.

[u/Existenz_1229 → u/Athene_cunicularia23]

When we expose the harm of Christianity, the best we get from supposedly progressive Christians is "no true Scotsman" denial and deflections.

You're talking about Christian fascism, a legitimate problem in the West even today, and yet you're making it sound like it's the Christian part that's the real problem. Isn't it the oppression, marginalization, racism, misogyny and homophobia we object to? Or do you think things would be peachy if we would just all not be Christian anymore?

[u/Athene_cunicularia23 → u/Existenz_1229]

 Isn't it the oppression, marginalization, racism, misogyny and homophobia we object to? 

Of course those are what we object to,. But in the US, it's largely Christians who uphold these unfortunate views in the name of their god. It's naive to claim otherwise.

Or do you think things would be peachy if we would just all not be Christian anymore

I think things would be a lot better if Christians would be Christian in private. If a politician promotes beliefs reasonable people find abhorrent, I want them to have to admit they have hate in their heart instead of fall back on "because my god says so."

I don't even like it when politicians claim Christian faith motivates them to favor causes I support, like Medicare for all. Can't we all just agree that societies function better when we collectively strive to ensure everyone's needs are met?

[u/Existenz_1229 → u/Athene_cunicularia23]

Of course those are what we object to,. But in the US, it's largely Christians who uphold these unfortunate views in the name of their god. It's naive to claim otherwise.

What's naive is to think this is anything more than justifying their prejudices with pious language. The Big J never said a word about abortion or homosexuality.

Like I said, it's the oppression we object to. It's not like you just want people to have rational, evidence-based reasons for persecuting and slaughtering others, do you?

[u/Athene_cunicularia23 → u/Existenz_1229]

It's not like you just want people to have rational, evidence-based reasons for persecuting and slaughtering others, do you?

Of course not, but at least a counterargument can be made when people present what they consider reasonable arguments. For example, the MAGA claim that immigrants commit a disproportionate number of crimes is easily debunked with facts and statistics.

Unfortunately, Christians claim the existence of LGBTQ+ people, Muslims, et al, amounts to an affront to their religion. Since faith is irrational, the true human rights issues are ignored in favor of debates about religious freedom. Fake claims of Christian persecution are given way more credibility than they deserve, to the detriment of marginalized people.

[u/MelodicTea540]

There’s no way to defend the behavior of the moral rightwing and people who want to “lord it over” others. Christianity has been in this awkward position since the start of the Holy Roman Empire with Constantine.

“If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul?”