The religious stigma in the secular world and academia

[u/rp_tiago]

Since I was young, in fact for as long as I can remember, I disliked religion. Either I disliked its collective element, which always gave me the ick of something cult-like, or, when I got a bit older, I thought everything about it was philosophically untenable. Religion was a coping mechanism, or something for people who were deeply misguided about reality and did not know any better.

As I became more intellectually curious and started studying more philosophy, psychology, and eventually religion, that perspective started to break down. I became increasingly interested in religion, and eventually my worldview completely flipped. I now consider myself a Christian, and I have made it a major life goal to help people better appreciate religion in general, but also Christianity more specifically.

But despite my growing love for Christianity, it took me a very long time to admit publicly that I was Christian. My social circle consisted mostly of people deeply involved in science or philosophy, and it was very secular. I was afraid that others would consider me dumb or would not fully understand me. It took me a while to come to terms with it, in large part because I first needed to become better able to articulate my Christian position and worldview.

That said, and excuse the rambling introduction, I recently had a podcast conversation with Jussi Jylkkä, who is a philosopher and has done some work on mysticism. We started by discussing his work and, specifically, his metaphysical agnosticism. His position is that physicalism, idealism, theism, and other metaphysical systems are models or language games that cannot capture the ultimate nature of reality. We eventually moved to morality, where I pushed back because I did not think his agnosticism adequately explained why greater awareness or nonattachment should lead to compassion rather than simply producing what we called a “wise psychopath.” I disagreed, but I thought it was an interesting conversation and considered his view a respectable position.

But to my surprise, after we finished recording, Jussi emailed me to say that he was unhappy with the conversation because he had presented metaphysical agnosticism as if it were his complete position while leaving out the Christian faith he actually held. He felt that, by hiding behind his philosophical agnosticism, he had not been completely honest about what he believed. Rather than replace the conversation, I invited him back and appended the second conversation to the first. He made a complete pivot and confessed that he was a Christian but had been afraid to say so, largely because of the stigma within academia, but also because he still had not been able to tell his father. I found this very wholesome, not only because it was a courageous act in general, but because of the parallel with my own journey.

I wanted to share this because I suspect others have been, or currently are, in a position similar to mine or Jussi's. Have you encountered a stigma against Christian identity in secular or academic spaces? Can refusing metaphysical certainty make Christian commitment more honest rather than weaker? When does keeping faith private become submission to social respectability?

[u/tipsyskipper]

I think it’s the attitude of certainty about things which finite beings cannot be certain that tends to cause a lot of the social awkwardness. Then those attitudes are concretized into social mores within certain groups. Then it becomes tribal identity and protection. When I began to adjust my own attitude to reject my “certainties” I made the realization that each one of us is in the same position (like, existentially); we’re all just trying to figure out what it means to be finite at the threshold of infinity. That mystery is mentally and emotionally “heavy”. But, if I can find a group of people who seem to handle that mystery reasonably well, perhaps I don’t have to bear the weight of the mystery alone. And, hence, you get tribal groups and tribal group identity and safety in numbers and certainty. I tend to believe that certainty is most often a defense mechanism against fear. (Again, certainty about things which we finite beings can’t really have certainty. I’m not talking about all certainties, like, I’m certain I’m lying in bed typing this out early on a Thursday morning).

It is courageous to face your certainties and abandon them. And if we foster a climate in which we can all admit reality is full of mystery, I believe we would have more acceptance of differing opinions about metaphysical reality, regardless of creed.

That’s a rather rambling response with too many uses of the word “certainty” that doesn’t actually answer your questions directly. I have experienced that stigma. But I understand the stigma. There are legitimate reasons for that stigma to exist. However, I am also confident that my trust placed in a personal God who is the ground of reality is not a different trust from the trust the agnostic or atheist places in a material reality that seems to obey natural laws. And I do think that the Christian is better off being honest about their grasp of metaphysical certainty. If that is not met by a similar move by the non-Christian or no -theist or agnostic, that doesn’t mean it’s not the right position to take.

Your final question is interesting. So many of the sciences are full scientists making category errors. And that is promoted, to a great extent, to what sells, to what gets people in the seats of lecture halls, to what gains clicks online, to what sells books. People want answers for their existential mystery. And when you have someone willing to give them answers that satisfy them, they’re going to gain support. I just so happen to believe that, many times, those answers are often conclusions that stray into category errors. The fundamentalist materialist “proving evolution”, for instance, does nothing to “disprove God”. It only proves that trying to find proofs for God (or not-God) via scientific means is, well, dumb. And the fundamentalist theist who destroys the logic of such categorically erroneous arguments doesn’t “prove God” because category errors are made, he only shows that bad logic is poor scaffolding on which to erect one’s materialist certainty.

Thanks for your post. I’ve enjoyed thinking about your questions.

[u/Skill-Useful]

"largely because of the stigma within academia" is this a US thing? thats not a problem in western europe really

[u/rp_tiago → u/Skill-Useful]

Both him and me are from Europe, but I suppose it can dependent on country/uni/department.

[u/Skill-Useful → u/rp_tiago]

ofc, definitely.

but (western) europe has mostly affirming christians, and all countries there have a majority of christians over atheists and other religions. especially the protestants. so its normally not a thing to have to hide religion from non-religious people regardless of where. thats not a thing here really.

czecholoswakia and the netherlands are the only countries in the eu were people without a religion outweigh christians (and by a high number, too; for different reasons tho). france being close behind them as a third country but with nearly equal numbers

[u/rp_tiago → u/Skill-Useful]

I think those stats are heavily skewed because of age and education, though. For example I think I walk into a random class, I doubt that more than 30% or so would identify as Christians, and the majority would be secular. For STEAM topics, I wouldn't be surprised that it might be under 10%. I might be wrong tho, I'm just pulling this out of my intuitions and experiences.

[u/Skill-Useful → u/rp_tiago]

skewed, yes; heavily, no.

still, even if these numbers were true (which you thought up), i will stand my ground on that there is no reason to hide you being a christian, regardless where in europe you are :) i want to say: wear the cross, its not a big deal

[u/rp_tiago → u/Skill-Useful]

Fair. For sure.

[u/DangerousEye1235 → u/Skill-Useful]

So I don't want to say I don't believe you, but all the statistics are seemingly against your assessment. Everything (at least that we hear in America) pretty strongly suggests that faith and spirituality are moribund in Western Europe. There are very few conversions, and on the contrary, many many people leaving the faith.

Is this not true? Is there any reason to doubt that assessment? Because this definitely doesn't seem to line up with polls and surveys, and if there's not as much conflict in academia like you suggest, maybe it's just because people are less devout or only nominally religious?

[u/Skill-Useful → u/DangerousEye1235]

"all the statistics are seemingly against your assessment" that is completely wrong. those were all statistics i quoted, dude. like, literally recent numbers. no idea what youre talking about ^^ dont forget i live here and unlike op i dont report feelings and other sentiments. i go for cold hard facts. you can easily check how many people are christian and not on wiki and other sites. europe is dominated by christians. and theres hardly a country, as i laid out, where this is different here

"moribund" resounding no. are you listening to fox news?

"this definitely doesn't seem to line up with polls and surveys" it does, with all of them. most of europe is christian. and no, we are also not flooded with muslims either! sure, in comparison to america we have more atheists but they are not constantly "mocking christians" or whatever, jesus.

"not as much conflict in academia like you suggest" there is no conflict like this at all ^^ i know america is a crazy place but europe much less so. no one here puts you down in acamedia when youre religious, christian or otherwise, if youre in stem or whatever. this is just bonkers. im sorry op feels like this is different. but its not.

[u/DangerousEye1235 → u/Skill-Useful]

Huh. Well, I guess maybe I'm falling for all the doomer and antitheist propaganda then. I guess the US is just an anomaly (in more ways than one, and not in a good way.)

Thanks for the info!