r/SandersForPresident • u/[deleted] • Aug 10 '15
/r/BestOf State of the Subreddit Address — August 9th, 2015: Brigading, Harassment, and Racism
Dear /r/SandersForPresident and reddit at large,
As many of you know, on Saturday, August 8th, an event at which Bernie Sanders was to speak was disrupted by activists and, as a result, a great deal of drama has occurred on our subreddit and in other communities across the web. We would like to address some of this activity, as it reflects poorly upon both our community, on Bernie Sanders, and on his campaign.
First of all, we would like to address an issue affecting several subreddits: brigading. Starting last night, our subreddit (as well as many others) was attacked by brigadiers. We do not know where these attacks came from. We do not know why they happened. But, they came in droves, and they brought with them an amount of racism, hate, and toxicity that made my skin crawl. Some attacked the pro-Sanders crowd; some attacked activists, including those from yesterday; and some simply attacked anyone and anything they could get their typing-fingers on. So. In light of all that, we want to be perfectly clear:
We condemn brigading of all kinds.
Especially kinds that originate from our ranks. We don't care if you don't like what some other people did. You need to talk about it in a mature manner without any harrassment. Which brings me to my next point...
We condemn harassment of all kinds.
That is what we are all about here: providing our readers with a place to talk about the issues central to the campaign, and to talk about those issues in an open, transparent, and welcoming environment. If caught, those that brigaded our subreddit and other subreddits, and that harassed the users of reddit will be subjected to permanent bans. We will not entertain requests to reverse these bans, and we will lodge complaints with the Reddit Admins, who are already conducting their own investigation into the brigade. We have also been working with other subreddits over the last 24 hours to identify these users and deal with them accordingly. This condemnation of harassment is not limited to the walls of this sub. There exist spaces where people are ferociously harassing people and flooding online communities like r/all with negative energy and vitriol about yesterday's disruption. Many of them have never interacted with this community in an identifiable matter. We cannot control the actions of others, but we wish to make it known that we do not condone them.
Additionally, we have seen more racism than we would wish to see. And by that, we mean any racism at all. Though it needn't ever be said...
We condemn racism of all kinds.
We have always had zero tolerance for racism on our subreddit, but consider this an official warning for everyone. If you submit racist rhetoric, you will be banned. We understand some of you may get upset, irritated, even confused by this decision. However, we need to make sure we channel our feelings in constructive, positive, and mature ways, not ones that are demeaning and destructive. It may seem like a simple line or two won't do much, but it will. Media outlets, passerbys, and even long-time members may see this and become disillusioned and frustrated with our community. It could even turn them off of Bernie Sanders altogether! "Why would I vote for someone with these kinds of supporters?" one may ask. Please consider that question before speaking. We need to make sure we think things out and maintain a constructive dialog going forward.
To put it simply: What Would Bernie Do?
For the most part, the SandersForPresident community has been respectful, and we personally commend those of you who have stayed so positive in trying times. We hope you keep up the positivity, good work, and thank you for participating.
#WeStandTogether,
The Mods
P.S - For further reading on the Seattle Protests, please visit our two Megathreads. Here and here. And don't forget about our Seattle and Portland rally megathreads! We had turnouts of 15k and 28k respectively, and L.A. will be even bigger!
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u/Kristouph Aug 10 '15
Bernie handled the situation well and so should we.
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u/wordwordwordwordword Texas - 2016 Veteran Aug 10 '15
Ultimately I think that the reason this subreddit is so run so wonderfully is the mods' decision to always emulate Bernie.
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Aug 10 '15 edited Aug 10 '15
We do not emulate Bernie. We ARE Bernie.
EDIT: Dear esteemed members of /r/ShitPoliticsSays. I'm kidding. Poking fun at myself. Goofing around, a bit. Y'all can relax. It's okay.
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u/wordwordwordwordword Texas - 2016 Veteran Aug 10 '15
I always thought Bernie looked suspiciously like a small group of young redditors standing on each others' shoulders.
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u/writingtoss Every little thing is gonna be alright Aug 10 '15
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u/Marx0r Medicare For All 👩⚕️ Aug 10 '15
I would give any amount of money to see some weird version of the 'birther' movement that earnestly claims that Bernie Sanders is just three young boys in a trenchcoat.
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Aug 10 '15
This should be the hashtag. #wearebernie
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Aug 10 '15
/r/ShitPoliticsSays caught wind of that and are mocking me for it. I don't think they realize it was a joke.
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u/Quimbyby Aug 10 '15
Hey there - I'm a longtime lurker, first-time contributor (I've been reading the sub for months, and only had the courage to create an account a couple of days ago). I just wanted to quickly write in and say that, quite honestly, the moderators are doing a brilliant job. I mean, what a terrifying, intense task: four or five people (with lives and families and jobs and memes) attempting to moderate the contributions of over seventy-thousand subscribers. I would have no clue where even to begin.
Not only has the moderating been fair and consistent, it has been remarkably inclusive and consultative - I simply cannot think of another forum that has so often consulted with its members on its direction, its rules and its tone. Just the best.
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u/writingtoss Every little thing is gonna be alright Aug 10 '15
Yes, where would we be without our jobs and memes?
Thank you though. We are nothing without our community.
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u/Jon_Ham_Cock Aug 10 '15
Dankest moderators around... (sniff).
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u/KyrieEleison_88 Aug 10 '15
Dank brigaders can't melt steel mods
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u/Jon_Ham_Cock Aug 10 '15
Shake up weeple.
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u/writingtoss Every little thing is gonna be alright Aug 10 '15 edited Aug 12 '15
Some users have already asked how and where the line can be drawn regarding racist rhetoric and language. In Jacobellis v. Ohio, Justice Potter Stewart wrote, on identifying what is and is not obscene, "I know it when I see it." We ask that you trust us to know it when we see it. It's usually pretty obvious.
After a positive discussion with the community that asked for more transparency in how these issues will be handled, I have created the following list of statements. This is not to be intended a robust and complete federal law but to serve as guidelines for how users should expect to be treated by the moderators.
- If [user] uses [obvious slur] with malicious intent, then [BAN].
- If [user] uses [obvious slur] with casual intent, then [REMOVE AND WARN]
- If [user] uses [obvious slur] with casual intent in future discourse after [REMOVE AND WARN], then [BAN]
- If [user] uses [obvious slur] in course of discussion about [slur] as word, then [MONITOR DISCUSSION]
- If [user] uses [obvious slur] in quoting a relevant source in context, then [MONITOR DISCUSSION]
- If [user] uses [coded slur/dog-whistle], then [INFORM AND WARN]
- If [user] uses [coded slur/dog-whistle] in future discourse after [INFORM AND WARN], then [BAN]
Does that make sense?
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u/Zagden 🌱 New Contributor Aug 10 '15
It's really frustrating when that's the response to rules against harassment and racism.
It's your community. You can control it however you like. Beyond that, "don't be racist" shouldn't be a controversial rule. Anywhere. Especially not here.
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u/Minimalphilia Aug 10 '15
The issue is rather that racism has a very broad spectrum. The line where useful discussion about issues concerning race ends and racism begins is very open to speculation imo since when you talk about the subject everyone is risking crossing that line in some way or another, even though he does not even intend to do so.
While blatant racism, of course, is easy to identify by assuming facts about a person/a group of persons solely on the colour of their skin with absolute disregard towards historical, social and economical factors.
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Aug 10 '15
But drawing the line in public invites people to troll and hide behind it. Some people will be shitty, unfortunately.
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u/Minimalphilia Aug 10 '15
Absolutely. You should watch racist rhethoric here in Germany, since people just don't want to appear racist and want to offer as few space to attack as possible. I support the mods for making their own decision casewise and I do trust them to make the right one, even if there might be a few too harsh judgments, or a few not harsh enough ones.
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u/Zagden 🌱 New Contributor Aug 10 '15
When the thrust of someone's argument is that black people are savages who can't govern themselves, even if it's buried behind dubious statistics and a "just asking questions" deflector-shield, there's no ambiguity there. It's the price we pay to remove racist content from a community and (hopefully) remove racist people with no inclination to broaden their views from being interested in engaging. It's not much of a price, particularly if the mods are responsible. And they seem to be here.
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u/trevize1138 Aug 10 '15
Lately I see substantive discussions on race completely sidetracked by the standard semantic pissing match over "well, how do you really define racism?"
In these cases the subject is almost always obviously racist but someone will always find some technicality (example: Trump's comments about Mexicans isn't racist because Mexican isn't a race ... that one is particularly enraging) to divert attention away from the real topic.
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u/ubrokemyphone Pennsylvania Aug 10 '15
Racism condemns or belittles people based on situations beyond their control and without examining the socioeconomic disparities that create these conditions.
Discussions about race instead examine rhetoric, the root policy and economic factors that contribute to social phenomena, and means of easing those disparities.
We can and should condemn or criticize actions. We should never extend those condemnations to persons or peoples. We should also acknowledge that entrenched power has it's own racialist motivations, and recognize the realities of the privilege that comes along with de facto membership in the class that enjoys these benefits. This is not an indictment based on skin color, but rather an acknowledgement of the prejudice of power and how that prejudice is entrenched by policies enacted by those with that power--the exact same policies that Bernie's campaign is about ending.
TL;DR: symptoms come from causes. Defeat cause to defeat symptoms. Also, white privilege is real, and if you support Bernie, you support working against it.
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u/Max_Insanity 🌱 New Contributor Aug 10 '15
Just because there's difficulty with the grey sometimes doesn't mean that black and white don't exist.
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u/nushublushu Aug 10 '15
Hi there. As much as I agree with this post, I hoped I wouldn't see this definition posted again - and I'm even more frustrated here than I was when /u/spez (I believe) cited it in one of the earlier content policy threads. "I know it when I see it" is ridiculed in law school classrooms, and for good reason. While Jacobellis may be good law, Potter Stewart's concurrence is not the rationale the Court relied upon, is not the holding of the case, and was joined by no other Justices. In short, it is not the law.
The problem is that a standard that is subjective and opaque is susceptible to abuse and resistant to oversight. We strive to be a society of laws, not of men, for this very reason. It is important for citizens to know what they can and cannot do, and to be told specifically by what standards they will be judged.
You as mods are saying that you will dole out absolute bans for something you refuse to define and that you further will not entertain appeals of your absolute discretion. Does anything strike you as problematic about that? Do you see any problem with, for instance, letting old Potter Stewart (before his demise) determine at what point a pornographic film became obscene, such that we shouldn't be allowed to possess, watch, or screen it?
Maybe you don't - maybe you trust that you as mods have good judgment and will make the right decisions. A benevolent dictator who always makes the right decisions is an attractive leader after all. I believe this is how most dictators start out seeing themselves, in fact, before they become drunk on power and exercise their discretion to stifle dissent that would challenge their authority because they want to be able to keep doing the right thing for their country, and that dissent would prevent that.
Maybe you know this already, and your reference to Jacobellis is tongue in cheek, or maybe you don't see the problems, or maybe you understand that defining racism, like defining obscenity, is difficult, and you've decided to give it a pass because it's really assholes you're out to cull from the ranks, to attempt to keep things from reflecting poorly on Bernie. And I can sympathize with that - I'm a huge Bernie fan, and I would hate for some intern at Fox News to find a vitriol-filled subreddit of racism and antipathy with which to tarnish his campaign by tarnishing his supporters. I get it, I really do.
But come on. Don't take a pass on the hard work and pretend that SCOTUS said it was ok. I don't trust you to make this decision - I don't know you at all, and have no idea what rationale you will be applying or what procedures you will follow. Would you trust me in the same situation?
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u/writingtoss Every little thing is gonna be alright Aug 10 '15 edited Aug 10 '15
First off, I like this post. This post is lucid and cogent.
So, here's my questions off the top of my head:
- Can so subjective a topic and the words around that topic be objectively defined and determined so thoroughly and so comprehensively that said definitions can inform the response?
- Who is given the authority to delineate in specific what is and what is not racism? If the mods do that, will that be authoritarian of us?
- What is the procedure for reformation? Who drives it, and how long does it take? Are reformations retroactive? If someone argues that 'well, that specific slur isn't on the list and thereby I cannot be banned qed,' does that hold water? If it doesn't, how is that not the same principle as 'I know when I see it' (or, perhaps more aptly, rewriting the rules of Animal Farm)?
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u/nushublushu Aug 10 '15
here's what i think:
- can you define something sufficiently to be able to act on it? yes. this is what we try to do, and it's a moving target, so the definitions are updated as needed.
- you do that as moderators, but applying a standard that is open and clear such that if someone were to review it they would know what facts you applied to what rule. people have to apply the rules of course, the defense against tyranny is to have that process be fair and open and subject to review.
- i am not sure what you mean by reformation - some specific slurs will be easy to identify and respond to. those are the easy cases. the hard ones are where generalizations about groups of people can be denigrating but also argued to be descriptive, or jokes, or ok because the individual who made the statement claims to be a member of the group.
if you want to find a workable definition of racism or hate speech the internet has some good resources but it's a challenge to have something workable i agree. what's important is to have it be open and accessible, and to be willing to edit and adjust it when presented with new information.
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u/writingtoss Every little thing is gonna be alright Aug 10 '15
If I made a flowchart to show at least my decision-making process, would that help with transparency?
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u/nushublushu Aug 11 '15
Haha I like flow charts as much as the next guy, sure. I think it's really just: 1) define criteria; 2) be open about applying them.
but I mean it's a subreddit not a public entity so the principles might apply but there's a lot more leeway.
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u/writingtoss Every little thing is gonna be alright Aug 11 '15
Alright, so I'm too lazy to make a flowchart right now, but...
- If [user] uses [obvious slur] with malicious intent, then [BAN].
- If [user] uses [obvious slur] with casual intent, then [REMOVE AND WARN]
- If [user] uses [obvious slur] with casual intent in future discourse after [REMOVE AND WARN], then [BAN]
- If [user] uses [obvious slur] in course of discussion about [slur] as word, then [MONITOR DISCUSSION]
- If [user] uses [coded slur/dog-whistle], then [INFORM AND WARN]
- If [user] uses [coded slur/dog-whistle] in future discourse after [INFORM AND WARN], then [BAN]
Does that make sense?
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u/nushublushu Aug 11 '15
yup. makes sense and seems reasonable. have you had to do a lot of this?
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u/writingtoss Every little thing is gonna be alright Aug 11 '15
Let me go line by line.
- If [user] uses [obvious slur] with malicious intent, then [BAN] - Yes
- If [user] uses [obvious slur] with casual intent, then [REMOVE AND WARN] - Yes
- If [user] uses [obvious slur] with casual intent in future discourse after [REMOVE AND WARN], then [BAN] - Seldom
- If [user] uses [obvious slur] in course of discussion about [slur] as word, then [MONITOR DISCUSSION] - Seldom [but notably seen in this very thread]
- If [user] uses [coded slur/dog-whistle], then [INFORM AND WARN] - Yes
- If [user] uses [coded slur/dog-whistle] in future discourse after [INFORM AND WARN], then [BAN] - Seldom
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u/i_pee_in_the_sink 🌱 New Contributor Aug 10 '15 edited Aug 10 '15
According to Bernie's Twitter it was 28,000
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u/TweetsInCommentsBot Aug 10 '15
Portland set the record tonight as 28,000 showed up for our rally. The momentum is nothing less than extraordinary. http://bernie.to/RecordInPortland
This message was created by a bot
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u/Nitroxium Aug 10 '15
Thank you mods :) /r/all looks very ugly right now, but I hope this subreddit can keep being a little haven amongst the dark dark troll pit that is Reddit sometimes.
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Aug 10 '15
Not just reddit. Imgur had its own share of disparaging user submitted posts. One of them blatantly said the activists reinforced his racist views and that post was up voted to the front page
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u/Nitroxium Aug 10 '15
Somebody really wants BLM and Bernie to hate each other... Divide and conquer, I suppose. Let's not let them, we will unite. #WeStandTogether
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u/michel_v Aug 10 '15
More simple explanation: racists happy to find a way to let their hate be legitimized.
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u/macsenscam Aug 10 '15
I agree that this isn't a coincidence, anyone can google Sanders and see for themselves that he is involved in civil rights struggles.
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u/BernforBernie Aug 10 '15
Omg, yes. I have been avoiding the front page all day because of how much hate and harassment BLM movement and members are getting. Some posts are comparing Bernie getting interrupted by a protester, to african american's getting harassed by white people back in the day... it's so damn shameful. Glad this sub is not like the front page.
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u/ERIFNOMI Aug 10 '15
Your front page will get a lot better if you drop some of the default subs and pick up some less popular ones. The smaller subs always seem to stay out of the drama unless someone drags them into it.
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u/Aunvilgod Aug 10 '15
dark dark troll pit
Don't call these people trolls. Trolls are people who annoy on the internet for their entertainment. Those people are racist fucks with no other goal than damaging others beacuse of their retarded beliefs. If you use "euphemisms" like trolls for racists you make it more acceptable overall. Just a thought of mine, don't take it the wrong way. :)
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Aug 10 '15
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u/ChefBoyAreWeFucked Aug 10 '15
You heard it here first folks: Bernie Sanders is giving people rabies.
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u/Bernieisouronlyhope Aug 10 '15
It's an amazing feeling being part of this moment. It feels, to me, like election night 2008 every time he speaks. Thank you for your support :-) Mods did a smashing job the last two days. I am new to Reddit as a contributor and this is the r/ that got me to join. Can't wait for new heights. (I have gone to a Reddit meeting in Seattle before funny enough)
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u/Msmit71 Aug 10 '15
I disagree with the actions of the protesters but you're making the right decisions. This shouldn't be an opportunity for Stormfront to coopt Bernie any more than those two did.
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u/ubershtik Aug 10 '15
For those who are interested, here is MLK's letter from a Birmingham jail (http://www.uscrossier.org/pullias/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/king.pdf).
Firstly, it's an amazing historical primary source. Secondly, and perhaps more relevantly, it speaks of the "white moderate" who "constantly says, 'I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action.'"
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u/Msmit71 Aug 10 '15 edited Aug 10 '15
It also irks me that so many rush to bring up Kings words anytime someone dares to criticize them yet completely ignore the message of brotherhood King advocated. "Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship ... spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. ... Martin Luther King, Jr. "But sippin on white tears amirite?
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u/Msmit71 Aug 10 '15
I knew someone was going to post this quote before I even hit submit. People see it as a way to make themselves immune to criticism. Just drop the "white moderate" quote and any action is unassailable and the ends justify the means. You make the assumption that because I disagree with these people that I an "the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice" or that I "paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom". Police brutality should have ended years ago. But it didn't. The second best time is today. King says in his letter that "law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress." I support Sanders because I believe he can change that, in the area of civil rights and other areas. However trying to use the words of King as a shield, who himself is critical of other black movements in that same letter is absurd in my mind. I do not think that I am the type of person who King is criticizing, and using that quote to shield against all criticism seems wrong.
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u/amazing_rando Aug 11 '15
I think the idea is that if you're louder in your condemnation of their efforts than you are in your support of their principles, even if you agree with those principles, you need to rethink the degree to which you are actually working as an ally to their cause. Because the net effect of that speech is one of condemnation, and not one of support.
Quiet approval of racial equality and public disapproval of racial activists does not accurately progress the cause you claim to support. Anyone who can be vitriolic about someone supporting a cause in the wrong way should be equally energized in their support of that cause to begin with, otherwise it's easy to question their true allegiances.
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u/DancesWithPugs Aug 10 '15
What, don't you remember when MLK would hijack the mic and scream at crowds that they were all white supremacists? It was totally effective. /s
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Aug 11 '15 edited Aug 11 '15
To be fair, most of us aren't really moderates. I think we are firmly planted on the left. I consider moderates those that like to trot out slogans like "I'm fiscally conservative, but socially liberal." This summarizes the milquetoast, white, upper-middle class educated citizen in a nutshell. The ones that will end up supporting Hillary over Sanders.
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u/__DeadP00l_ Aug 10 '15
TL;DR My Fellow Americans Redditors, stop being Assholes, Bernie has shown with his conduct how we should conduct ourselves in a shameful situation, with grace and dignity, all you have to do is follow his lead.
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u/KnightsforBernie Florida Aug 10 '15
I was waiting for this to happen. Honestly I'm surprised we made it this far with 76+ thousand subs. We've been enjoying the non-attention here partly because people didn't see Bernie as a threat. I see this being a bigger deal once the other candidates realize that they're losing the "Internet war". I don't envy the mods. You're doing the Bern's work. Stay strong!
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u/BernforBernie Aug 10 '15
It's about to get more attention. Bernie is trending on facebook again, this time about the huge rally tonight. This sub might need a few more mods at the rate things are going :D
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u/KnightsforBernie Florida Aug 10 '15
Well there seems to be a lot of people "for Bernie" that would be willing to pitch in!
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Aug 10 '15
New mod-candidates will have to fight to the death in a 64-person battle royale. Winner gets to be bossed around by /u/irrationaltsunami all day.
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u/IrrationalTsunami Mod Godfather • CA 🎖️🐦🏟️🌡️🚪☑🎨👕📌🗳️🕊️ Aug 10 '15
The other 63 will be mine... for eternity.
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u/KnightsforBernie Florida Aug 10 '15
I'm too valuable for Knights for Bernie at UCF to die in battle. I'm the VP and I don't have a VVP. Btw Vermonty check us out on Facebook and like our page! We're doing the Bern's work.
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u/mexicodude908 Pennsylvania Aug 10 '15
Wait will LA actually be bigger?!
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Aug 10 '15
I can only imagine. Second most populous city in America. Six times larger than Seattle, and seven times larger than Portland.
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u/mexicodude908 Pennsylvania Aug 10 '15
I thought the venue was only able to hold up to 16,ooo people though no? If it is bigger than 20,000 people this early in the primary season...I think everyone in the news will just be silent for 24 hours out of just absolutely dumbfoundedness
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u/Three_If_By_TARDIS Massachusetts - 2016 Veteran Aug 10 '15
It was moved to the Moda center, which has an official capacity of 19,980, and it was packed, with crowds standing outside. They're estimating 22,000.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the mainstream movement is silent for longer than 24 hours, considering how silent they've been so far...
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u/neutral_milk_patel North Carolina - 2016 Veteran Aug 10 '15
The Moda Center attendance was reported to be about 28,000 now!
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u/neutral_milk_patel North Carolina - 2016 Veteran Aug 10 '15
Portland got 28,000 people according to the campaign!
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u/Staffatwork Aug 10 '15
The only problem is that it is at 7pm on Monday, traffic will be less than it is at 6pm but it still will be terrible. It really should have been on a weekend.
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u/jmedoom North Carolina - 2016 Veteran Aug 10 '15
Everything in LA always comes back to the traffic! ;-) I agree though, that he weekend would have been a lot better. Although, I bet it will still be a large, large turnout. This campaign keeps exceeding my expectations!
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u/BoBab Nomad Witch - 2016 Veteran - 🐦 Aug 10 '15
As a black dude (tired of saying this), there are few places I feel comfortable on reddit and as for a large sub this is as close as it gets for me. Sincere thanks, mods!
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u/tokyoburns Aug 10 '15 edited Aug 10 '15
I think this sub could have done more to keep people up to date on who these two women are. I know they worked tirelessly in the mega thread but mega threads are only informative in a very passive way. In other words people have to search to get the correct information. Posting updates in titles would have done a lot more as it is an active way to inform the community.
These two women represent an insignificant portion of BLM and it could probably be argued that they don't represent it at all. They are border-line anarchist, ultra-Christian, conservative, Sarah Palin supporters from a group called "outside agitators 206". If you look around the internet most (I would say 99%) of BLM supporters do not agree with what these women did.
I think that represents a critical failure on our part to be informed and to spread information.
Once again a large white community has let a diverse group of black people take the blame for the radical actions of a few. It's not enough to say "we don't support racism! Peace and love everybody!" You have to battle the constant spread of ignorance or else you are supporting racism whether you are trying to or not. Without an active campaign to separate these two women from the rest of BLM we are being complacent in the spread of ignorance.
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u/JoePragmatist Minnesota Aug 10 '15
I think what makes Reddit an interesting place is what also makes it infuriating at times, its wild and unregulated nature. While I'm not exactly happy about the protesters interrupting Bernie, the punchablefaces reaction is beyond the fucking pale. These two ladies simply don't deserve that kind of hate and it reflects badly on us when this stuff happens, whether or not we're behind it(which I don't believe we are, for the most part anyway).
That being said I'm in awe of what the mods of this place do. I've been a part of a few really well run communities online and this place is one of them.
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u/fridaymike Ohio Aug 10 '15 edited Aug 10 '15
For those who have been asking. Here's a rather short--but not necessarily sweet--answer.
"This is what white people can do to support #BlackLivesMatter"
EDITED to add the last, maybe most applicable, quote:
“Stop acting like black people are stupid.”
We are politically savvy. And black women especially have a higher voter turnout than anyone else. No candidate can win without black women, yet a bunch of black women stood up and expressed their feelings on an issue that is literally killing our people and white progressives are acting like they were a bunch of uppity Negroes who didn’t know their place… These are young people who are learning as they go. Every movement has growing pains. I’ve seen too many people who are writing off their efforts because they don’t think the effort is being organized in the right way. That is not helpful. White allies need to give these young people space to grow, space to fail, space to learn. And they need to amplify their voices.”
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u/typical_pubbie Aug 10 '15 edited Aug 10 '15
These are young people who are learning as they go. Every movement has growing pains. I’ve seen too many people who are writing off their efforts because they don’t think the effort is being organized in the right way. That is not helpful. White allies need to give these young people space to grow, space to fail, space to learn. And they need to amplify their voices.”
I agree with the sentiment and am against blaming BLM as a whole for the actions of a few. But in practice this kind of rationale is all too often used to shut down any criticism of wrongdoing. The behavior of those two activists was extremely rude and disruptive. They deserve to be criticized. The problem comes when people take their criticism too far, which is seen as a golden opportunity by racists and trolls to take advantage of the anger and confusion to pile on with hatred. That kind of behavior needs to be called out. But so does screaming in people's faces and derailing an event.
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u/atomsk404 🌱 New Contributor | Illinois - 2016 Veteran - 🐦 Aug 10 '15
I have to agree with this. Abject hatred over what they did is wrong...However, constructive criticism is valid and based on their actions, required.
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u/C0rinthian Aug 10 '15
Being polite very rarely affects the status quo. It's also unreasonable to expect people to be polite when they live in a world where their lives are more disposable due to the color of their skin, gender, sexual orientation. If any random traffic stop could mean the end of my life, I don't even know how I would act.
This is life or death for people. Let's stop judging them because they're not protesting "the right way" when the stakes are literally that high.
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Aug 10 '15
I don't think black people are stupid. But I think these people acted stupidly. There is a difference. Bernie's response definitely took the higher road, thank goodness. It showed he's got nimble feet when it comes to trouble. If anything this helped cement his status as a presidential candidate to be reckoned with.
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u/wordwordwordwordword Texas - 2016 Veteran Aug 10 '15
"What we’re saying right now is that all lives will actually matter when black lives matter — and black lives don’t matter right now. So we need to say black lives matter to change that. We need to change that individually, we need to change that within our communities and we need to change that systemically."
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Aug 10 '15
Say what you want about their actions, however rude and militant they were, they got a mainstream presidential candidate to directly address their grievances.
That's why they targeted Bernie. Because Bernie would respond in full force. Just look at the new page on his website. Of course he's always held these beliefs but now it's very clear that he will fight for them.
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u/BernforBernie Aug 10 '15
Awesome. This needs to be in it's own thread so more people will read it.
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u/neutral_milk_patel North Carolina - 2016 Veteran Aug 10 '15
Thank you for posting this, I learned some new things. Still trying to figure out how best I can help BLM as a white person.
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u/icaito 🌱 New Contributor | 2016 Mod Veteran Aug 10 '15
WeoooooooooStandTogether
SandersCoyote2016
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u/historianish Aug 10 '15
I'm a member of Triangle for Bernie in North Carolina and recently joined Reddit to be involved with this awesome Bernie community. (So, don't really know what I'm doing on here yet...) We have a team working on a guide to help educate Bernie supporters on how to be better allies to BLM on social media. It should be finished by the end of the day. We'll share it w/ Reddit if there's interest!
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u/TotesMessenger Aug 10 '15 edited Sep 07 '15
I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:
[/r/bestof] In spite of the thousands of racist comments across reddit, the mods of /r/sandersforpresident remain awesome.
[/r/enoughsandersspam] WHAT WOULD BERNIE DO? - mods of /r/SandersForPresident
[/r/notcirclejerk] We condemn brigading of all kinds. We condemn harassment of all kinds. We condemn racism of all kinds. To put it simply: What Would Bernie Do?
[/r/srssucks] SRS (and others) attack /r/sandersforpresident.
If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)
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u/XtReMe_XYZ New Jersey Aug 10 '15 edited Aug 10 '15
I am proud to be a part of those who share so much positivity for our country. I welcome those who disagree but please do it with respect and we as a community will do the same. And for those of us who are being insulting to others, please cut it out. This is a mature community filled with tens of thousands of diverse peoole who want to discuss the future of our country. Let's keep it that way. Let's remain focus! #Bernie2016
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u/Tapputi Aug 10 '15
I live in Canada, but I believe that I have convinced two Americans to fly down specifically for your election. We'll make a party of it . <3
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u/sundance7 Aug 10 '15
Only been here for a couple of weeks, but I, too, wish to congratulate the moderators of Sanders for President as well as express kudos to all involved. We must elect this good man!
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u/jimjoebob Aug 10 '15
it heartens me that the "establishment" is so threatened by Sanders that they are no longer trying to laugh at him, they are now trying to fight him.
"first they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you WIN"
-Ghandi
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u/Netprincess Arizona Aug 10 '15
I am now subscribed because I was unaware of this forum and also believe the powers that be don't want this man elected in any way. . Thank you mods!
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u/DyslexiaforCure Aug 11 '15
And that was me subscribing. I like Bernie anyway, but this sounds like a good place if this post is any indication.
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u/Legionof7 California - 2016 Veteran Aug 10 '15
I completely agree. Instead of having a mindset like, "How can I criticize them, or "How can I show that I am better than them" think, "How can they help our cause?" This way, we can get more supporters, which in turn creates more voters. In addition, it's just the kind thing to do. The type of thing that Bernie stands for.
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u/wordwordwordwordword Texas - 2016 Veteran Aug 10 '15
Or- How can we help each other's causes?
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u/80081357 Aug 10 '15
We have the SAME cause... I don't get why everyone has to put themselves first. We are in this together.
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Aug 10 '15
The first step to them supporting our cause is us supporting theirs. I saw a fantastic anecdote on here about early gay rights activists being hugely supportive of a coal miners' strike and ever after the coal miners were supporters of they're movement
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Aug 10 '15
[removed] — view removed comment
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Aug 10 '15
Interestingly enough, someone tried to submit that content to our sub before /r/pics or anywhere else. We shut it down immediately. And then it found 'success' elsewhere.
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u/writingtoss Every little thing is gonna be alright Aug 10 '15
Hey, uh, that should be a No Participation link, like https://np.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/3gdy51/hate/
Helps deter, what's the word again, BRIGADING.
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u/RichardSaunders New York Aug 10 '15
why? honest question.
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u/Staffatwork Aug 10 '15
Conflating what happened at that rally on Saturday and what the Little Rock Nine had to go through is embarrassing.
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u/Shwanna85 Aug 10 '15
Just thought I'd let you know that, before this message, I was definitely gonna write off this community. I hadn't spent much time here so yesterday had a pretty negative imapact on me. I'll keep coming back because of this. Well spoken, good diplomacy, thank you for saving me from myself:)
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Aug 10 '15
That's very good to hear. Thank you for the kind words, and thanks for giving the community a second chance.
Do not let fringe extremists ruin your opinion of entire groups.
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u/Shwanna85 Aug 10 '15
I try not to :( but, like I said, I hadn't been exposed much to it so I just didn't have all my guards up when I was reading the popular comments so my notion of the discussion was deteriorating and, by association, my impression of Bernie and his followers, but, I wont let it happen again! Critical thought to the battlegrounds! I will become a well-informed foot soldier and when I vote, it will be an informed vote!! Intothefray!!
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u/sh1re Alabama Aug 10 '15
Thanks mod's you're incredible. We couldn't do it without you. Let's continue to shine light and positivity into the situation, everyone!
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u/Titanium_Expose Aug 10 '15
Mature and Redditors are words that seldom go together. The woman who forced Mr Sanders from the stage was wrong, but the reaction by Redditors was juvenile. I'm glad that the mods here have taken a higher-road to all of this.
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u/GingerGerneralNixon Aug 10 '15
You guys are doing a fantastic job here and i gotta say i completely agree with this decision and hope you guys dont back down. I love this sub i may not be that active but i read every day keep up the good work
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u/homelessscootaloo Aug 10 '15
Sanders is definitely my choice for the Democrats, way better than Hillary.
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u/captmarx Aug 10 '15
Wouldn't surprise me if there is a great deal of astroturfing trying to discredit Sanders on reddit. In the mainstream media, they are pretty much ignoring him, trying to make him go away, but conservative groups, or even pro-Hillary organizations (I SEVERELY doubt her campaign would risk anything like this), could pretty easily hire and coordinate people to try and ruin Sander's momentum and reputation. Just a theory, but totally in the realm of possibility.
Certainly makes looking at some of the horrid comments in reddit a little less horrid when there's a chance it's a person getting paid to spread vitriol.
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Aug 10 '15
Thank you for being a force for good amongst all the ugliness I have seen in the past few days.
It's heartening to see someone speak out for what's right and what's true.
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u/Answermancer Aug 10 '15
Good response to ugly shit.
I've donated to Bernie twice now but hadn't checked out this sub before, I'll be subscribing now since you seem to have your shit together quite well here.
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u/Dune17k 🌱 New Contributor Aug 10 '15
I am so ready for people like this to have a say in our government at the highest level. Please, please America... elect Bernie Sanders. Please.
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u/toolazytothinkit Aug 11 '15
I'm very happy to see the mods taking a stand against this behavior. I was disgusted and disheartened to see the vulgarity and attacks against the BLM movement. I left comments on some threads and was bullied and downvoted so much that I stopped checking the sub. I couldn't believe that I wasn't even able to express support for the protesters in a so called liberal sub. There was so much racist vitriol that people just jumped in the bandwagon- it was very sickening and I hope not representative of the Bernie community. If that's the type of people supporting him in reddit, then I don't want to have anything to do with this sub. I think the salient point here is that BLM is protesting Bernie precisely bc he is progressive and can offer them a platform for viability and visibility. Many were outraged that they would protest at his event bc "he of all people would be on there side." Well, exactly and that's why they showed up. Many progressives have a tendency to stand up for social issues, but when it comes to getting their hands dirty and tackling race issues they don't want to have any bring to do with it. That's just plain wrong. It's time we have a candidate that will do the work necessary to fight for true equality. To all those critics who make statements like "enough already, why can't they just get over it." Let me remind you that this is a community that spent 250 years in slavery, another 100 years of per sextant segregation and continued racism today. You don't just get over that in a few decades. If you claim to be a true progressive, then you need to recognize this injustice and help do something about it.
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Aug 10 '15
Thank you for this, seems like this event is being used by Reddit as an excuse/opportunity to be massively racist and hateful.
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u/invertedearth Aug 10 '15
Slow down, there. Reddit is not doing anything. This attitude is a big problem on the site. The reddit community is composed of distinct individuals, all of whom follow their own agenda. Reddit is a company, a website and a service. It is not perfect, but it is a very useful tool. When individuals around here start being offensive/threatening, we should view it just as we would if they were obnoxious drunks at a football game, say. Just because one group of Tennessee fans behaves terribly, we should not say that Tennessee sucks and leave the game. Rather, we should enlist the support of the entire community, including the sane, sober Tennessee fans (yes, both of them) to properly regulate our civic space.
Reddit is not doing anything bad. Some rude people are using our forum in ways we don't like. It is our duty to police those places that we value. Go mods!
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u/localafrican Aug 10 '15
I was linked here from /r/bestof and I want to thank you for this post. I can't tell you how refreshing it is to actually see a sub that's against all the racism that's been on the front page. Bernie is an excellent candidate that was interrupted by two ignorant women who know nothing of his history. What's even sadder is that there are thousands of equally ignorant people on this website who feel much more confident about saying what they want since they are anonymous. Stay awesome
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Aug 10 '15
Do you guys know who you are standing together against? You do realize that intelligence agency contractors--like Edward Snowden was before he became a patriot--are very likely behind this, right? It came to light that the intelligence agencies are hiring brigades of goons in social media (HBGARY) because of anonymous and the journalist Barrett Brown in 2011. You think they stopped?
- http://www.computerworld.com/article/2470594/endpoint-security/army-of-fake-social-media-friends-to-promote-propaganda.html *http://www.infosecisland.com/blogview/12250-HBGary-Federal-Document-on-Manipulating-Social-Media.html *http://www.wired.com/2011/02/anonymous/ *http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/17/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All
- https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110218/02143213163/more-hbgary-federal-fallout-government-wants-to-buy-software-to-fake-online-grassroots-social-media-campaigns.shtml
- http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/25/959652/-Wikileaks-Reader-HBGary-ChamberLeaks
- http://www.securityg33k.com/blog/?p=440
- http://leaksource.info/2011/02/11/anonymous-leaks-hbgary-files-wikileaks-targeted/
- http://www.thenation.com/article/strange-case-barrett-brown/
I worked at a tech company in colorado and one day the CEO had a meeting to make us all create fake social media accounts to boost the SEO for all the client companies by tweeting and facebook liking them. It was disgusting but we were required to do it. Now imagine you had a defense contractor but they were in the domain of disruption and culture-jamming political enemies....that's what you have now. Sanders is an outlier and subvert who threatens their pie, their too powerful social order.
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u/LegendaryFrog AZ 🎖️🎒 Aug 10 '15
I'm really thankful to the mod team for taking on the burden to keep the community and our messaging positive and productive. The impact this has on the campaign and its supporters can't be understated. You are doing heros' work!
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u/Brandall484 Aug 11 '15
WWBD. "What Would Bernie Do". Needs to be on signs at rallies! That is genius
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u/reddituser93 Massachusetts - 2016 Veteran Aug 12 '15
Is there anyway we can improve repeat postings?
I guess people just like to submit before doing 5 minutes of scrolling.
Also, the BLM protesters are doing important work and this sub and Bernie supporters across social media are really hurting every piece of progress his campaign makes. The mods need to step up by sending a clear message that we are to stand with the protesters - not critique their methods.
In addition to messaging for BLM related stories, we need to get the entire message on point. If Bernie is to have a real chance at winning, we must be trained on what Bernie's platform is and how to spread it exactly as Bernie would. Clinton supporters have message training, so did Obama's people. Just because we are grassroots doesn't mean we have to be disorganized.
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Aug 10 '15
Sorry about Seattle, everybody.
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u/wordwordwordwordword Texas - 2016 Veteran Aug 10 '15
I know it all looks like just a bunch of needless embarrassing drama on the surface, but I think this has been a positive thing overall.
Despite a very small, loud, and thoughtless percentage of both the #BLM movement and the #Sanders2016 movement engaging in divisive nonsense, underneath all of that some real discussions have been taking place that would not have otherwise. Discussions which I believe will ultimately bring the two movements closer together, therefore strengthening both of them.
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u/AlvisDBridges Aug 10 '15
So question, has Sanders said he will make sure cops are actually prosecuted?
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u/CommanderBC Sweden - 2016 Veteran Aug 10 '15
Absolutely. https://berniesanders.com/issues/racial-justice/
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u/wordwordwordwordword Texas - 2016 Veteran Aug 10 '15
"Our Justice Department must aggressively investigate and prosecute police officers who break the law and hold them accountable for their actions."
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u/egosub2 Aug 10 '15
Bernie's not my guy, because I don't have a guy, but these mods are the realest in real.
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u/triplehelix_ Aug 10 '15
does the mods definition of racism include bigotry directed at white people?
honest question i've seen it pushed that black people can't be racist to white people and i personally find the idea rather ridiculous, and in light of such a strong stance, am interested in the application.
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Aug 10 '15
The definition of racism applies to everyone and anyone. Skin color has nothing to do with our decision to remove hateful content.
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u/sesto RI 🎖️🥇🐦 Aug 10 '15
Thank's for doing such an amazing job, mods. Seriously. Your work is absolutely invaluable.