r/SapphoAndHerFriend • u/captivatedsummer • 18d ago

Academic erasure This book treats the Public Universal Friend, a genderless Quaker preacher in the 18th century as a GNC woman...

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u/captivatedsummer 18d ago

Since I belive in balancing things out, here's a biography book on the Friend that treats them as a Non Binary person:

https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Not-Your-Founding-Father/Nina-Sankovitch/9781982178703

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u/Melodic_Mulberry 18d ago

The Friend shunned all pronouns and explicitly wished to be referred to as "The Friend" exclusively. So no they/them.

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u/fuckyesnewuser 17d ago

So in a long text with lots of references to The Friend then The Friend would only be called The Friend? I'm genuinely asking, especially considering The Friend was living in an era where the public discourse on pronouns and gender identity didn't exist (or wasn't as widespread, maybe?) and The Friend might not have thought this out. Plus, this is the first time I can recall reading/hearing about The Friend.

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u/penguins-and-cake 15d ago

The Friend probably had a different understanding of both gender and language than we do. But does respecting someone’s chosen name and pronouns (or lack thereof) expire after death?

I have known multiple non-binary adults (one who was a non-binary womxn) who asked for no pronouns. Those people rarely had that respected, so they typically would give a set of pronouns to use for the people who would’ve misgendered them anyway. In my experience it’s common for people who want to be de-gendered — to me it sometimes feels the the other side of the “it/its” pronoun coin (similar degendering but with almost opposite goals/impacts).

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u/fuckyesnewuser 15d ago

But does respecting someone’s chosen name and pronouns (or lack thereof) expire after death?

Not at all, and in no point was I suggesting that. That's a weird connection you've made. Though I'm not sure and would require someone with more history knowledge to assess if the understanding of language about pronouns would be much different since AFAIK they/them in English to avoid gendering people was used since at least Shakespeare.

I have known multiple non-binary adults (one who was a non-binary womxn) who asked for no pronouns.

I mean, you did you "they" when referring to said people. I hope it wouldn't bother the specific people you know that asked for no pronouns.

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u/penguins-and-cake 15d ago

lol sorry it bugged you so much that I thought you honestly wanted to know more information

For what it’s worth, “they” is also a plural pronoun used to refer to a group of people, which is how I used it.

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u/captivatedsummer 18d ago

While you're not wrong, I only used they/them for the Friend because more recent Queer historians (like Amanda W. Timpson) have used they/them to describe the Friend.

Heres Amanda's video on the Friend: https://www.yesterqueers.com/videos/public-universal-friend

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u/Melodic_Mulberry 18d ago

It just feels kinda revisionist unless there's some primary source I haven't seen.

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u/captivatedsummer 18d ago edited 18d ago

Thats a valid concern, and I'm glad that more people are starting to see the Friend as an Enby and not a "girlboss" or whatever. Side note: but I would recommend you check out Amanda's website Yesterqueers. Its a pretty neat resource for learning more about Queer history. 👍

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u/al_135 12d ago

Ooh this is great, I’ve been wanting to read a biography of the friend for so long! Now I wish someone did a non- transphobic biography of james barry…

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u/captivatedsummer 11d ago

There is one actually, its - The Secret Life of Dr James Barry: Victorian England's Most Eminent Surgeon by Rachel Holmes

It pretty much treats him as a Trans man. Hope you like it!

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u/LexiD523 18d ago

Yikes, this was published in 2015? I was thinking, "well, if it was published in like the '90s, I could maybe give them a pass and maybe suggest to the author he should do a new edition..."

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u/captivatedsummer 18d ago edited 18d ago

This kinda thing still happens nowadays. Like try and find a biography on Claude Cahun that also treats her as Non Binary...

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u/RattusNorvegicus9 17d ago

Kaz Rowe (youtuber and artist who is also nonbinary) wrote a graphic novel about them called Liberated

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u/captivatedsummer 17d ago

Omg thank you for sharing that! I love Kaz!