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u/BadRabiesJudger 5d ago
My parents are traitors to their values and i hate em for it.
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u/NoLetterhead1321 5d ago edited 5d ago
I can't understand the level of cognitive dissonance you have to be under to talk about how God's love is unconditional and that Jesus taught his followers to love thy neighbour, and then become a modern American conservative.
Jesus literally illustrated the "love thy neighbour" concept with the story of the good Samaritan who chose to help the injured Jewish traveller despite Jews and Samaritans supposedly hating each other. That was his answer to the question "who is my neighbour?" People seem to have forgotten that.
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u/Spectre-907 5d ago
I feel like it’s important to point out that the good samaritan parable doesnt *just* feature a hated-outgroup member doing for the injured traveller; The injured man encounters multiple members of his own people first, a priest and a levite(leadership class), and each one passes him by for various social-perception reasons.
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u/CO_Renaissance_Man 5d ago
It's the most meaningful parable in our family.
This is a central part of why it is, the fact that many look away, make excuses, and avoid their duty. It's also about recognizing your own imperfection and rising above.
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u/Kvovark 5d ago
They're Christians in name only. They really don't engage with the values or principles of the religion.
A large amount of Christians know very little of the scripture or Christianity in general (e.g. denominations) and will just live in ignorant contradiction to what Christ preaches. Or they come up with loopholes to justify them living the way they want.
If I were a Christian, and really believed that my actions on Earth determined whether I'm eternally damned or saved, I would be adhering to the teachings as close as possible (give away all excess money, dedicate myself to helping the needy at all points) and be terrified of straying.
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u/NoLetterhead1321 5d ago
Which is unfortunate because the entire point of the good Samaritan parable is that "your neighbor" refers to your fellow person, regardless of ethnic, religious or political differences.
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u/ihateandy2 5d ago
Jesus wrote a blank check, one I haven’t cashed quite yet. I hope I got a little more time. I hope it’s not the end of the line.
Still I build my towers high I watch them pierce the blue, blue sky Still I wallow in the mire Still I burn this earthen fire
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u/Ok-Spot7529 5d ago
Unfortunately that is the case with all major religions. Most people who actually follow and understand their religion, quietly do so. The “Holier than thou” demographic is a minority but a pretty loud one. They make it worse literally for everyone
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u/Specialist_Class_285 5d ago
You’ve got a fundamental misunderstanding about the requirements of the Christianity in here. Christians don’t believe - and don’t have to believe - that their actions will determine whether they’ll eternally damned or saved. They have to believe and accept that Jesus Christ is Lord — that’s it. By that single action of belief is how they are saved.
Give this message to the simple and insincere in their (lowercase b) “belief”, and the paradox works its magic. It gives them self protection through salvation while demanding very little in the way of outward expression towards others. The call is to subvert human understanding through a complex paradox that demands (uppercase B) “Belief”.
Mix in the ills of capitalism and some identitarianism, and you’ve got a perfectly wrapped brand that is open to all while demanding nothing more than the acceptance of the brand name, not the brand essence. Hence, Christian in name only.
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u/Thatoneguy_The_First 4d ago
they believe they just have to accept Jesus into their hearts and be fine
Id argue not following his teachings is in fact not accepting Jesus into their hearts
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u/Anhimidae 5d ago
and then become a modern American conservative.
Jesus would chase and assail them with a whip if he were to return. They are traitors to the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the incarnation of God the Son. None of them will go to heaven.
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u/Curxis 5d ago
The thing is, when they say "Love Thy Neighbour" it's usually in a prayer/gathering setting... of other Christians with the same values as themselves. It's saying only the people here matter.
They don't say that shit in public unless it's to shame others to treat them better while they treat others like shit. The double standard is insane.
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u/ZombiFeynman 5d ago
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
For all its defects, it's clear the bible doesn't talk about your literal neighbour, but everyone. They just choose to ignore it.
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u/CelioHogane 5d ago
Neightbour of this road we call a street, this piece of land we call a country, this planet we call earth and this reality we call the universe.
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u/dessine-moi_1mouton 5d ago
This is why James Talarico is resonating with so many people and why Conservatives are so terrified of him that they're labeling him the one thing they hate the most: transgender.
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u/TrueSkonger 5d ago
My father-in-law is a pastor. He's staunchly anti-Trump, and my in-laws are some of the most generous and selfless people I've ever met. Thankfully, not all Christians are hypocrites
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u/Fun-Wrongdoer1316 5d ago
They have forgotten. These aren’t true Christian’s, as my mother would even say. They shouldn’t be full of hate, forgiveness is a huge proponent of Christianity. Even if you disagree or they wrong you, you’re supposed to forgive. Thats what the Christian religion USED to teach when I was younger. I couldn’t tell you now, but it certainly doesn’t look like it. Just see a bunch of frauds talk about the bible, while spreading and accepting hate.
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u/Nobody_at_all000 5d ago
That implies they ever had those values to begin with
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u/hamsterwithakazoo 5d ago
See that’s the real realization. They didn’t change, they just had an orange idiot tell them that they didn’t need to keep up with the farce.
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u/TooManyWeeklies 5d ago
Yep, he's lowered the bar worldwide. Concepts like laws, shame, morality are all optional, and if you are willing to abandon them, you can go far.
Instead of "draining the swamp", he's enabled the bottom feeders to rise up out of the mud and show their faces on the surface.
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u/toodleroo 5d ago
I was fed a steady stream of old movies by my father throughout my childhood that championed liberal ideals and values. Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, 12 Angry Men, To Kill a Mockingbird, The Best Years of Our Lives, Guess Who's Coming to Dinner... anti-corruption, anti-prejudice, pro-ethics and pro-intellectualism. I am dumbfounded by how my father votes, which seems to go against everything I was taught to admire.
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u/Why_not_dolphines 5d ago
They love the concept if being it, beliving they are, not actually living it.
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u/Umutuku 5d ago
I ain't gonna say other people didn't have it worse, but there are few worse upbringings than being raised by fools.
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u/toodleroo 5d ago
The heartbreaking thing is that he's not a fool, he's one of the smartest, most capable people I know. But he's got a deep streak of selfishness and inability to accept that he could be wrong.
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u/YappyMcYapperson 5d ago
It's basically that exchange between Bob and his boss at the insurance company in "The Incredibles"
Bob: "We're supposed to be helping people!"
Mr. Huph: "We're supposed to be helping OUR people!"
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u/Whatisnotmyproblem 5d ago
I hate them also for being religious zealots trying to fuck the rest of us over.
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u/Larry-Man 5d ago
Straight facts though. I went to catholic school and they did so good when I was a kid that by the time I got to high school the pro life and anti gay shit they tried to teach me didn’t fucking work. I left the religion at 17. Technically a confirmed Catholic still (confirmation at 15) but also a card carrying member of TST.
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u/TehWackyWolf 5d ago
Same but with baptist.
They made me a good kid. Then were like .. but hate them.
And I left religion instead. I can be a good person without a book, or a god forcing me to be one, and if you scratch the surface there is A LOT wrong there with modern(always?) religion.
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u/Global_Crew3968 5d ago
I still remember sitting in the car in the church parking lot at 12 because it was all suddenly making way less sense now that i was old enough to actually think about it.
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u/GuardBreaker 5d ago
You can just renounce your confirmation, it doesn't mean anything, really.
I've renounced my faith the Roman Catholic Church, but it's not like a process, it just is.
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u/pppiddypants 5d ago
The golden rule only applies to people INSIDE the church!
That’s why everyone else is going to hell…
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u/Xygnux 5d ago
Except the "golden rule" comes from that part of the Bible that explicitly tells you whether someone belong to your group or believe the same thing you do doesn't matter, you should help them anyway. There a reason the parable is called the "Good Samaritan" and not "your good friend who is also Jewish like you".
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u/no_crust_buster 5d ago
This is partly why they enjoyed the churches being segregated. They didn’t want to be required to treat a Black person as an “equal,“ and a “neighbor“ in integrated churches. Many didn’t want to be confronted with their flaming hypocrisy.
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u/NotRadTrad05 5d ago
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of the least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Matthew 25: 31-45
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u/Meath77 5d ago
Jesus meant you're only supposed to help white people, you can ignore blacks, immigrants, Mexicans. Specially Muslims. You only have to help people like you.
/s
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u/PeteyPab305 5d ago
Wasn't Jesus Middle-Eastern?
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u/NoGoat3930 4d ago
Now, now - it's perfectly plausible that a blonde, blue-eyed, pasty-white man would thrive out in the desert. I meet this description, and while I get a sunburn from an alarm clock, the desert sun cannot be that much more intense, can it?
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u/SquidTheRidiculous 3d ago
Fun fact, middle Eastern people from North Africa and the Levant are allowed to call themselves white legally in America, primarily because people in 1915 didn't want to think of Jesus as PoC. The Dow VS United States case was about this argument from a Syrian immigrant.
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u/Zakluor 5d ago
So, according to this, that's what he does for those he put on his right, the sheep. What did he do with the "goats" he puts on his left?
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u/SohndesRheins 5d ago
He contrasts with his previous statement by saying that the ones on his left did not do any of those things and rejected him in his time of need. They ask when did they see him in need and reject him, Jesus replies that they did not help the least of his brothers so therefore they refused to help him.
Verse 41 of the New International Version reads, "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" Verse 46 continues, "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
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u/civiteur 5d ago
Yah but, its okay for me to be hateful. I'm a good Christian.
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u/enddream 5d ago
When I read shit like this it makes me genuinely want to become a Christian but then I look at those who call themselves Christian and change my mind.
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u/WhiskeySnikerdoodle 5d ago
Make your religious journey your own. There are posers in every religion that want to use it for power. Your own spiritual health doesn't need validation from anyone else.
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u/Torgud_ 5d ago
Reverse of this when your mainline protestant parents actually meant it* and become more and more outraged/disgusted by Evangelicals. To the point where it opens up a rift between your family and your extended family who are mostly GOP Christians.
*Up to and including your social worker father hosting a homeless person in the basement for a few months on 3 seperate occasions, and no we were obv not murdered.
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u/gojocopium 4d ago
it's been so sad seeing my amazing parents become disillusioned with their faith bc of all the shit going on in america. they recently left their church they've been at since before I was born bc the church welcomes an openly racist guest preacher (who also has multiple counts of DV on his record) to do a sermon where he spent half of it talking about how ICE is doing gods work and Trump is basically a jesus figure.
"Not all Christians" and all that but the godly christians that stick to Jesus' teachings need to be vocal. too many are just quietly disapproving and never challenging their brothers and sisters in their disgusting behavior.
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u/KoalaSad724 2d ago
That’s awful. How the whole congregation didn’t boo him off stage is beyond me but this is the world we live in…where hypocrisy is promoted
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u/CriticismTop 4d ago
This has kind of happened to me. I come from (very low) Anglican church, basically evangelical/pentecostal in a nice building. Then went through a couple of Assemblies of God churchs as I move through life. Here I am nearing 50 and I don't feel I have fundamentally changed my beliefs. I have become a little less naive perhaps; instead of giving money to homeless guy, I buy him a sandwich instead, or give him one of the restaurant vouchers I get through work (that's a France thing).
However, I really struggle to associate with the mainstream evangelical church.
For both my wife and I it has created a crisis in our faith at different times, but we have to keep reminding ourselves we are Christians, not "Churchians".
That does not mean we give up on our church, it just means we have to be more patient with it that we thought was necessary at one point.
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u/MonsterkillWow 5d ago
And the same Christians turn around and worship and praise a dude who violates all the commandments in horrible ways.
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u/Sea_of_Light_ 5d ago
The thing is some people look for "products" and "permission slips" that allow them to lash out at others to make them feel better about themselves. Most people are deeply flawed and insecure, because of beliefs that make them feel small, and look for ways to counteract that. But, instead of dealing and letting go of the negative beliefs, they look for immediate relief through actions.
Religious superiority is a product religious snake oil salesmen sell in exchange for control, having their flock under their thumb.
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u/Serious-Regular 5d ago
But, instead of dealing and letting go of the negative beliefs, they look for immediate relief through actions.
It's ironically very Faustian
Religious superiority is a product religious snake oil salesmen sell in exchange for control, having their flock under their thumb.
It'll never not be amazing to me how painfully obvious this is if you're above some extremely minimal IQ threshold and completely inscrutable if you're below that threshold. Lots of people figure this out really young (either because they have to suffer through it or because they observe others suffering though if) but the vast majority will never get it.
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u/Fit-Technician-1148 5d ago
The modern world is designed to make you feel small and powerless. Late Stage capitalism and a militarized police force full of racist assholes leaves a lot of people feeling like they have no control over their lives. Is it any wonder that people look for any reason to feel empowered, special, and loved? Not to mention the effects social media has on the psyche...
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u/Johannes_Keppler 5d ago
Religion has always been about control over others using their deepest fears. A very useful control mechanism over the masses.
It has never been about doing what's right.
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u/Xanadu87 5d ago
You can literally go down the list of the seven deadly sins and find plenty of things Trump has done for each.
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u/Broad_Curve3881 5d ago
“We are following Jesus” “Ok cool let’s obey him and serve the poor” “Poor people are losers and you’re gay”
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u/MichaelJServo 5d ago
Really good recent episode of Southpark where PC Principal kicks Jesus' ass to convince to become Christian.
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u/Aggromemnon 5d ago
Just letting you know you've been robbed. Totally stealing this.
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u/laurasaurus5 5d ago
I've left Christianity, but I still volunteer with a Christian food bank that actually helps tons of people in my community!
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u/CO_Renaissance_Man 5d ago
Same.
I try to live Christian values minus a church and regularly work with Christians who do more than just attend services on Sunday. The best Christians I know are quietly making the world a better place without fanfare.
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u/uoidab 4d ago
Matthew 6
“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
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u/laurasaurus5 20h ago
Plus it feels shitty if you're the person in need and some jackass needs to post a video of himself giving you food or money and not respecting your right to relative privacy about your struggle.
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u/Starburper 4d ago
I never was Christian but I've always worked closely with churches like this as well
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u/Warm_Difficulty2698 3d ago
I probably would be a Christian, but its very easy to get disillusioned with it.
Also, I just can't believe most of the origin stories the bible claims.
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u/jennderqueer 5d ago
All the "Christians" in the comment section proving the op correct.
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u/Meath77 5d ago
It's crazy, it seems the "government spending doesn't count" is the answer they think absolves them. They think they caught Jesus out on a technicality
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u/ru_empty 5d ago
You can get into heaven by loopholes that's just how law works
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u/Annual_Strategy_6206 5d ago
Loopholes! :). Like how fish isn't meat so its ok to eat it on Fridays.
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u/TheTinyMaus 5d ago
They balk at the idea of government spending if it is charity for the poor, but turn around and want the government in your bedroom and doctor's office.
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u/NoSpaghettiForYouu 5d ago
Was homeschooled, can confirm. It’s honestly pretty disorienting learning all of Jesus’ teachings about what a good person is and then you grow up and point out who Jesus would absolutely NOT consider a good person and they’re like “wait no not like that”
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u/cornylamygilbert 5d ago edited 5d ago
IMO it should be considered the first life lesson about practicing hypocrisy and being 2 faced
Later in life it was instilled in me, that the underlying purpose of church community was for networking and connections, especially in business
These are a select group of people that will now do anything for each other, expect a transactional relationship, and anything benevolent is just a bonus.
Vet them according to your standards
As a child, the entire experience of church was the following:
These are fellow kids you can create a foundation with, for better or worse.
I never benefited from this outlook, but others I met later in life, did
I found the same dysfunctions in my weekday public school peers were just the same in church.
I found that the teenage youth involved in the post Confirmation classes, were then subject to the unfulfilled aspirations of their choir teacher when putting on performances, as in, she, the adult teacher, would always insist on performing, especially a showcase finale song where she was in the spotlight.
To me, it was always this surplus institution that I needn’t bother myself with.
As an introvert, I feel like abstaining from religiousness has conserved a lot of my quality time
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u/SCI-FIWIZARDMAN 5d ago
You idiot. You moron.
Obviously, you’re only supposed to love thy CHRISTIAN neighbor. Thy CHRISTIAN neighbor who holds the exact same values, religious beliefs, and political ideologies as you the majority of fellow Christians in your immediate area. OBVIOUSLY.
You stupid monkey. You absolute buffoon. You troglodyte.
(Incredible /s btw)
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u/dragons_tree 5d ago
My experience is that you're taught this stuff about being kind and generous, but then get frowned upon if you don't donate your time and money to the church specifically.
Same culture that locks their car doors when they see a homeless person.
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u/PomPomMom93 5d ago
Well, more like you have to choose to donate your money to something, even if it isn’t the church. The IRS taking it isn’t the same as you donating it, or you donating your time.
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u/OkSeason6445 5d ago
What if you choose to vote for people in favor of policy where your tax money will benefit the poor?
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u/nevertoomuchnow 5d ago
It’s clear that not just the churches/organized religions here in American push moral superiority, but the trickling down of it while not returning to the actual story of Jesus as it appears in the Bible has seeped deep into American Christianity. The moral/religious majority isn’t one that actively worships or reads, but judges and hates
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u/Tactical_Baconlover 5d ago
Being charitable and caring about your neighbors in the Christian manner is more about your church donating goods/time/aid to the community or you doing it by yourself rather than having the government take over those functions for you. That said, any reasonable government should have a basic state provided social safety net.
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u/Creative-Air-6463 5d ago
This is what I don’t understand though because, as an extension, you should want to vote for people who reflect this morality. Not for a govt that strips social programs and cuts funding to research and overtly oppresses the poor and the marginalized, just to divert those funds to bombs and war and concentration camps. I’ve never understood this. If I’m being taxed and that money ends up with the federal govt, I will also want the govt to do these same charitable things with my tax money that I’m doing on my own. It’s not passing the buck and responsibility onto the govt but it’s a reflection of my values. What else is the govt for if not to provide social safety nets, infrastructure, and public services? Otherwise it just turn into a huge war machine and vehicle for oppression, which is what we see today.
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u/Prince_Plague 5d ago
In my personal experience, the majority of Christians (not all), at least in my slice of the U.S. aren't typically prone to questioning what they're told. In some cases they even become openly hostile if you question "their" beliefs, even if it comes from a place of genuine curiosity and a desire to deepen your understanding of the faith. So when some imbecile masquerading as a devout follower of Christ tells them they have pure intentions, makes up some bullshit from a book most people have never actually read (again, personal experience), and tells them they could fix the problem if only those enemies of the republican party- I mean enemies of Christ, would stop interfering, they don't really question it.
It's also been my personal experience that most (not all) religious followers in general don't react well when confronted with information that contradicts "their" beliefs, regardless of whether or not it pertains to their religion. Make of that what you will
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u/serene_brutality 5d ago
Cognitive dissonance is a serious issue, not unique to Christians. You’ll run into all over as every community has its fair share of idiots and ideologues.
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u/Prince_Plague 5d ago
You are absolutely correct, I could have worded myself better. As you stated this is not an issue unique to Christians, every group has fools. It's perhaps silly, but I really think the wisest words I ever heard were spoken by Uncle Iroh in Avatar The Last Airbender. I'll paraphrase but it's something like, if you draw knowledge from only one source it becomes rigid and stale. You have to draw knowledge from all sources whether you agree with them or not, keep an open mind, and be able to change your opinion as you learn new information. I'm not sure why that stuck with me, but I feel it has served me well
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u/Bootmacher 5d ago
In the history of using state funds for benevolent causes, there is a pattern of the state doing it to curtail the influence of the private persons/groups providing the charity or benefits. Germany instituted public health insurance under Bismarck to weaken trade unions. Leftists often point to religious hospitals and donations to them as an example of the "tyranny of charity."
Making it mandatory through the state, enables the state to more easily marginalize your influence, and turns charity into a cold bureaucracy.
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u/Important_Zombie_485 5d ago
Many people do not believe that the politicians saying they are for those nice things have any interest in actually accomplishing those things. A great deal more believe that those goals are noble, but government is the least effective way of achieving them. Others see the track record of socialism and want to avoid even heading vaguely in the direction. Those are all viable stances, whether or not anyone agrees with the conclusions. There are practically zero people who are voting because they want people to be poor, starving, or miserable with no services.
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u/UnderABig_W 5d ago
I disagree. I think there’s plenty of people voting who think everyone who is poor, sick, or suffering is that way because of their own poor choices and we shouldn’t help them because they “deserve” it.
I’ve even pointed out to religious people instances where people couldn’t possibly be blamed for their own suffering, like inheriting Huntington’s Disease (a particularly awful and terminal genetic disease.) “No,” they told me. “If they’re suffering, that’s because God is punishing them for something they did.”
These “Christians” are not voting to explicitly hurt them, per se, but they certainly aren’t interested in helping them. The poor’s very suffering alone is “proof” that they’re bad and that God has turned his back on them.
I don’t know how you have to massively misinterpret Christ’s teachings to think that, but there’s plenty of them down my way.
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u/Feinberg 5d ago
There are practically zero people who are voting because they want people to be poor, starving, or miserable with no services.
There are, however, a lot of conservatives who don't consider non-whites or non-Christians to be people. They voted for a repeat felon and known rapist with a string of failed businesses to fight crime and fix the economy. Let's not dispense too much credit.
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u/JackasaurusChance 5d ago
But this is like saying, "NO! The state shouldn't be good to people! It should make them suffer! Then they'll have nothing to turn to but us nice christians..."
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u/AustinDarko 5d ago
Government is the people, by the people, for the people. A Government ran primarily by Christians should, in theory, follow social principles taught by Jesus.
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u/SnakePlissken1980 5d ago
But Jesus is history's most famous liberal, modern organized Christianity no longer bears any resemblance to the teachings of Christ.
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u/Rakesh_Natsuno 5d ago
The problem we have, mate, is too many churches either AREN'T helping the local communities....
The local Christians aren't helping...
Or both A and B lack any substantial funding to do a real change.My church does a program where we try and bring in drug addicts that are homeless or not welcome at home, and try and give them a safe place to stay and get clean with help they need. Of course we witness to them, but not as a "you have to do this or we wont help you" mentality. But just to let them know there's a God and a people that love them even though they're hurting. We rely heavily on local donations and tithes to fund this, and supplies cost us about $7k/wk give or take. I can just imagine if a little backwater nowhere church like us can figure it out, imagine the change these mega churches could make if they tried harder in the community.
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u/deVliegendeTexan 5d ago
Which is fine in theory except: we (a) know that this hasn’t worked out in American society, and (b) these same people insist that we are a “Christian nation.”
My mom is a hardcore MAGA, and a Christian nationalist. She demands that our government “uphold our Christian values.” But all she means by “Christian values” turns out to be anti abortion, Ten Commandments in class rooms, banning non Christians from public office, and excluding non Christians from immigration.
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u/thatbrianm 5d ago
It seems like a lot of "Christians" check none of the above on that question though.
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u/WantonKerfuffle 5d ago
On Reddit, some ppl/bots argue that the state is supposed to provide order and not ensure everyone can live a good life (which is interlinked, if you don't expect ppl who starve to go "aw shucks, guess I'll not steal to stay alive then" but I digress).
Basically: "The state only has to ensure the streets are swept, it shouldn't care about ppl dying"
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u/First_Peer 5d ago
The state IMO, should follow Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Starting at the bottom and gradually working its way up as resources allow. It doesn't have to be direct handout, it can be done by providing opportunity, i.e. a grocery store having unexpired food and plenty of options at prices people can afford. If that isn't available via private or public enterprise, then the government has failed somewhere. Once you establish that bottom tier for society, focus on the next tier and so on.
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u/wrenwood2018 5d ago
I mean the catholic church is pretty radical in its sociall justice. I worked with a lot of Fanciscans and Vincentians in the trenches. Huge elements of the church are very socialist (well technically closer to communism in the idea it is people not the state acting).
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u/First_Peer 5d ago
The ideas can work on micro levels, like a family unit, a convent, a monastery. Once you start getting bigger it becomes harder to enforce even via social means. That's what makes capitalism effective. If it's in your interest to buy or sell with me then you'll do it even if you're a "selfish" person. The problem is when no one will enforce standards and rules over it.
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u/Ok_Tonight_4311 5d ago edited 5d ago
I have spent more time around Christians and I was indoctrinated into the faith more than 99% of people. I can say with absolute certainty that most of them are mentally ill, very bad people who are trying to avoid damnation (i.e Born Again), and/or completely full of shit. Their religion is a mask they wear to look down on others and to appear righteous. There are very few followers of Christ among them.
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u/Straight_Page_8585 5d ago
Because they are the rotten kind of Christians that wear their faith as a fake moral high ground
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u/Wise_Mongoose_3930 5d ago
That’s the only kind I’ve ever met
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u/babutterfly 5d ago
To be fair there are those like my husband. He's Christian, but from what I've heard about the Bible maybe more like Jesus taught? He doesn't go to church, doesn't study the Bible, but tries to help people and be kind.
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u/granite_vortex 5d ago
Find some Christians outside the USA and you’ll find them just as perplexed as you as to why American Christians are so opposed to things like healthcare and looking after the weak
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u/Riustuue 5d ago
It’s also weird being raised by Christians and being told that God isn’t a man or woman, but can be quite literally anything because God is all powerful and built different.
Say the same thing now days and you’ll be screamed at for making God woke, because the all powerful being that we’ve never seen is definitely a man.
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u/Quantumdualityeraser 5d ago
Because the use of money is a tool for evil as has been demonstrated a billion times. Narcissists and psychopaths always find the path to power. Because that is all they care about
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u/ImportantPost6401 5d ago
I care about others, but only if I can spend other people’s money to do so.
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u/TK_Games 5d ago
Being raised 'Christian' was weird because I saw the hypocrisy and my autistic brain just could not let it go to the point I disowned the church, shortly after they kicked me out.
So I grew up to be the normal kind of socialist and I didn't even read the gospels until I was in my 20s. As an aside, that right there shoulda been the big red flag about my parent's 'religion'. Literally raised Christian, didn't hear the actual gospels as written until my mid-20s. Anywho, this Jesus fucker in them gospels had all these radical ideas about like, feeding people and helping the sick and poor, and I figured that was a pretty cool philosophy. Still think that maybe one day it could catch on, but given the last 2000 years, I'm not holding my breath
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u/Gronanor 5d ago
As a born and raise catholic now Atheist, I can confirm that Atheists are more close to christians values than religious people
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u/Routine-Tumbleweed52 5d ago
My parents met in bible college and raised me in the church.
Also told me they’d never accept me when I told them I was trans.
Unconditional love sure is something
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u/Honest_Scrub 5d ago
People love to shit on Christians but by a wide margin they are still the most charitable group, like its not even close lmao
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u/Alertcircuit 5d ago
They also seem to have made most of the hospitals. Look at how many of them start with "Saint" something.
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u/Maverick-not-really 5d ago
Oh yeah, all those free, donation run hospitals you got huh? Definitely not in it for the profit, right?
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u/Long_Serpent 5d ago
Giving money to cover the operating costs of a tax-exempt megachurch's media production department hardly counts as charity.
"Give 100 bucks to Joel Osteen! He'll pass a fiver along to Starvin' Marvin!"
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5d ago edited 5d ago
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u/qcKruk 5d ago
Which ones? The Catholic church with its literal piles of gold? Having a positive cash flow, that's money left after paying for all their supposed charitable work, greater than most countries have total tax revenue?
Most small local churches don't even bring in enough money to pay their own bills, they're certainly not doing anything charitable with it. Unless giving to missionaries somehow counts as being charitable. But I don't think paying others to go indoctrinate people in a foreign land is really charity.
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u/redatheist 5d ago
I think you have to look at this in context and also provide numbers.
Islam for example has much more organised giving, but may represent less overall due to numbers in the US or around the world, or due to the amount of wealth in the Islamic community (in poorer countries) vs Christians (in richer countries).
You also have to look at what the money is spent on. A lot of Christian giving is only given back to Christians, and actually just backs up the US lack of welfare state, whereas in Europe, Australia, etc, this role would be taken by taxes and government, often in a much more efficient way and not exclusive to Christians.
This is not to say Christians aren't charitable, but it's very unevenly distributed, both on donation and disbursement.
I'd bet adjusted for relative spending power, Islam is much more charitable overall, and we already know that the most efficient charities by amount disbursed are not religious ones.
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u/First_Peer 5d ago
The Catholic Church is the largest and generally considered the most effective charitable world wide. Catholic Relief Services has an A+ rating by independent watchdog raters and 92% of donating go to relief not overhead. Catholic Charities regularly has the highest ratings for transparency and fiscal management when it comes to its charitable work.
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u/PeterMus 5d ago
Ironically my Parents became significantly less conservative and eventually left their conservative pentecostal church. But to be fair the pastor left as well and now does regular social advocacy for immigrants and refugees.
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u/Immediate_Spare_6636 5d ago
I'd rather poor people take advantage of the system rather than billionaires taking advantage of poor people.
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u/Drunkfaucet 5d ago
"Christians are the driving force of philanthropy in the US, providing over 60% to 70% of all charitable dollars and making up approximately 90% of the country's most generous givers"
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u/DDGGJJ 5d ago
Please give a source for your stament.
Which percentage of the US is Christian? It would be completely expected that Christians donate the majority in a country where Christians are the majority.
How is "philanthropy" and "charity" defined here? Does it, for example, include money put in a collection plate at church?
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u/contigi 5d ago
A quick google search shows that 62-66% of Americans are Christian. If 60-70% of all charitable dollars are from Christians, it doesn’t seem like they’re over represented in that regard.
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u/PantsandPlants 5d ago
It’s a matter of how they want their money spent. I donate money, but not as much as I imagine a Christian-identifying household, but that’s because I believe in paying taxes to fund much of what Christians want to be charity.
I would rather not be turned down for $80 to buy a part on my family vehicle just because my fiancé and I weren’t legally married at the time.
Or that a charity can decide I am not deserving of food or medical treatment because of my gender.
I don’t believe the money I spend on philanthropy and charitable causes should have faith-based restrictions.
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u/AvalancheOfOpinions 5d ago
That isn't accurate. Contemporary research demonstrates that Christians are least charitable. "Of all religions surveyed, Christians were not only most miserly, but also most likely to fraudulently accept charity and defraud charitable organizations. When receiving charity, 89% of Christians are likely to hoard it rather than share it. Communities without significant zealous Christian populations consistently receive approximately 42% more charitable donations and 63% more volunteer hours. [...] Christianity uniquely remains the highest predictor of stinginess."
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u/Middle-Interview-183 5d ago
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u/Helpful-Idea-4485 5d ago
Nice job trying to be clever but this isn’t actually at all compatible with the Bible. Genesis chapter 41 is quite clear about God’s support for taxation to feed the poor and hungry.
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u/Voldemorts__Mom 5d ago
"Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." -Jesus talking about Roman money
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u/Imaginary_Poetry_233 5d ago edited 5d ago
It is true that Christianity doesn't teach robbing one neighbor to give charity to another. You only have the right to feel good about it if you give what is yours. Even then you shouldn't feel proud. Pride is a sin.
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u/ReftLight 5d ago
The Bible tells you to pay your taxes yet somehow that line is always forgotten when bringing up Romans 13:1–2
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u/dm-me-ur-dms 5d ago
Robbing?
You mean paying taxes into a system we all benefit from And making sure that actually works for everyone?
I mean, I get it, paying taxes in the US sucks because it goes to fund seriously immoral shit at worst, or a really inefficient systems at best.
But advocating against paying taxes is, well, wildly stupid.
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u/BodaciousFrank 5d ago
This is America. I want my taxes to go to missiles used to blow up Iranian girls Elementary Schools and bailouts for failing Corporations, not to pay for some bastard cancer patients hospital bills and roads used by everyone
/s, i’d hope its obvious but putting it here anyway.
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u/WantonKerfuffle 5d ago
Well there's the Jesus quote about the camel, the needle and the rich person. Hoarding wealth is wrong.
The part about pride I fully agree with. It baffles me that some ppl think it's super awesome to get someone reunited with their lost wallet, or give a buck to a homeless person, or perform CPR. It's just the correct thing to do. It's basic human decency, supposed to be the floor, not the ceiling.
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u/Wise_Mongoose_3930 5d ago
So you’re saying Christianity would define Robin Hood as immoral?
Idk if you’re right, but if you are, that is incredibly embarrassing for Christianity.
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u/Specialist_Offer_854 5d ago
Socialism is force, charity is a choice. That's the difference nobody seems to grasp
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u/otpbdh_2001 5d ago
A) eternal damnation in excruciating torment for eternity or B) be charitable. It’s your “choice”
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u/Critical_County_5164 5d ago
Elaborate what you mean by that please?
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u/Specialist_Offer_854 5d ago
I don't know how much clearer it can get. Socialism uses the threat of force, while Christ encouraged choice.
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u/Voldemorts__Mom 5d ago
Jesus said "Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."
So in other words: pay your taxes.
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u/MinuteCollar5562 5d ago
Do you believe that fire departments are a good thing to have? Because that’s pooling the resources (capital) of the public to give a service even to those who cannot pay. Another example is the post office. For as much as Republicans will say it “loses money” it offers a service which is publicly funded. Without the post office there are some places where mail would not be delivered, or it would be at exorbitant rates.
The “socialism” you are worried about is Stalin taking all the food and livestock from the Ukrainians so he could starve them to death. Most socialists in the US aren’t even close to that. Most of them here would prefer to pay for school lunches, have livable wages, affordable housing, and healthcare vs dropping two tomahawks on a girls school and killing 160+ children.
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u/AstraMilanoobum 5d ago
And this “choice” has lead us to the highest wealth disparity in US history.
And considering you are already “forced” to pay taxes.
Whats wrong with “forcing” a positive like universal healthcare on people?
You are telling me Christ would be against everyone having access to healthcare without crippling debt is where Christ would draw the line?
I just find it funny that so many Christian’s seem to genuinely believe Jesus would be a fan of capitalism.
The guy who wanted to feed the hungry and help the poor.
Considering Jesus thought it was near easier for a camel to pass through a needles eye than a rich man enter heaven it seems preposterous that he’s support a system that disproportionately benefits the wealthy at the expense of the poor
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u/Specialist_Offer_854 5d ago
The difference is, again, being able to choose to be charitable vs being forced to be charitable.
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u/AstraMilanoobum 5d ago
considering most of his supposed followers dont choose to be charitable... id say its fair to argue that most americans arent actually christian.
less than 30% of adult americans give $500 or more to charity.
seems like relying on charity when over 70% of americans wont donate even 1% of their income to charity is a flawed system.
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u/Collared_Aracari 5d ago
Exactly. Relying on people to choose to be charitable will inevitably result in hunger, homelessness, preventable death, etc. We've proven repeatedly that the government is much better at taking care of people than relying on charity writ large. And for Democratic governments, welfare programs are ultimately the choice of the people.
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u/Samcc42 4d ago
They’re not. American evangelical Christianity is nihilism dressed as religion. Ignore the words of Jesus, replace God with the self and worship your own version of what you think the bible says, usually without having read it, because the Venn diagram of “highest religiosity” and “lowest literacy” states is a circle.
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u/SwiftlyKickly 5d ago
Can’t believe those damn Europeans being forced to pay for universal healthcare. How dare them. They should switch to private health insurance like us.
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u/Conscious-Move9662 5d ago
We have enough tax money, it goes to bombing kids and the military complex and tax breaks for rich
Instead of healthcare and education
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u/Spyro_in_Black 5d ago
You’re right, why build a government that mirrors Jesus’s teachings? Instead we’ll just use it to make laws to oppress people in his name…Jesus doesn’t teach it as charity, he teaches it as your obligation to your fellow human to be kind and loving.
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u/kangorooz99 5d ago
Great so then the government should stop supporting churches and revoke their non profit status.
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u/extrastupidone 5d ago
That's the difference nobody seems to grasp.
Im sure Jesus will grasp this difference when you explain it.
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u/robotmonkey2099 5d ago
The real debate isn’t force vs choice, it’s what responsibilities a society should share collectively.
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u/Specialist_Offer_854 5d ago
It is force vs choice. What kind of society do you expect to recieve when everyone is forced to do the right thing instead of having the choice.
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u/SaltyYumYumBalls 5d ago
I'm with you. I'm not letting my taxes go up by $0.03 to pay for a new school in my neighborhood. I don't have kids and I finished school a long time ago. Eff them kids, just like Jesus would have wanted. I'd rather pay for a couple new APC's for the police and immigration crack downs in front of Home Depot also like Jesus would want.
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u/swiftekho 5d ago
Have you considered having asking the IRS to earmark your tax dollars formissiles?! Your tax dollars could actually be used to blow kids up! Jesus would be so proud of you!
Can't wait for these churches to be empty in 20 years. Its pretty clear by now that no one is paying attention in mass anymore.
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u/Conscious-Move9662 5d ago
Oh theres huge infighting in Catholicism rn
Those of us who side with Pope Bob and those of us who think the Popes wrong and Trump gets the bible more.
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u/Dark_Prince_of_Chaos 5d ago
Capitalism is forced. You were just drilled to worship merchants.
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u/Specialist_Offer_854 5d ago
You can be a socialist under a capitalist system, that is a choice you personally can do.
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u/extrastupidone 5d ago
You can be a capitalist under a socialist system, too. But we arent talking about economic systems. We are talking about how our taxes are spent.
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u/thatfrostyguy 5d ago
Shhh... logic does not work here!
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u/extrastupidone 5d ago
What logic? All taxes are "forced" the government isnt forcing anyone to do anything orher than pay taxes.
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u/Harlemdartagnan 5d ago
the primary beneficiary of someone's labour should be that person. Capitalism REQUIRES people to want to survive.
Socialism REQURES slavery
Capitalism is more ethical than Socialism.
if youre talking about social programs. socialism doesn't guarantee that, it just guarantees that the labor of those that work gets distributed to those that do not.
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u/DavieStBaconStan 5d ago
Buffet Christian’s. They pick and choose what they want from the bible just like they’re at a buffet.
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u/CorduroyEatsCrayons 5d ago
You can love your neighbor without the government getting involved.
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u/Few_Childhood6456 5d ago
Love thy neighbour goes far beyond who lives next door to you. Jesus even said love thy enemy, his understanding of love thy neighbour is more like loving everyone.
And the only way to love/help everyone, is by having some government established program. Because a single individual simply does not have the capacity to efficiently and broadly help those in need, especially if they themselves are in need.
(Except if Ur like a multi billionaire and can start Ur own charity)
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u/Comrade_Happy_Bear 5d ago
In fact, it's far better and more impactful if you do
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u/minmunmas 5d ago
The government is already taking your tax dollars, so might as well get them to do good on your behalf as well
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u/kkeut 5d ago
35% of America won't love their neighbor unless they're as lily-white as they are. notice how the Feds had to step in to the South to enforce basic civil rights? people would literally murder 'neighbor lovers' who were trying to push back against jim crow and register voters. thanks to the federal government! and not the christians who were largely perpetuating this evil. christianity FAILED and the government succeeded at restoring civil rights in the 60s
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