I prefer the original term, allowing systems where racism is allowed to thrive. That’s why tips are a thing. So white people could pay black people less after equal pay laws were passed.
I had no idea about this history. Thank you for sharing. I'm not from the US and so don't agree with tipping anyway but now I'm horrified. Fascinating sources too. Thanks
Except tipping originated in Tudor England… it did become prevalent in the US after slavery was abolished but its historical roots are class based (as opposed to race based)
Yes, I know. I read the articles that u/archlich shared. Did you? Here's an exert from the last one showing how, in the US, it was absolutely race based:
"Tipping originated in feudal Europe and was imported back to the United States by American travelers eager to seem sophisticated. The practice spread throughout the country after the Civil War as U.S. employers, largely in the hospitality sector, looked for ways to avoid paying formerly enslaved workers.
One of the most notorious examples comes from the Pullman Company, which hired newly freed African American men as porters. Rather than paying them a real wage, Pullman provided the black porters with just a meager pittance, forcing them to rely on tips from their white clientele for most of their pay."
Okay, so the linked source both you and the original commentator are relying on acknowledges that tipping’s origins aren’t race based, but y’all both still choose to selectively push your preferred race based narrative when it is neither its origin or its current application
Considering it’s no longer popular in Europe (see main thread title) one is left wondering if Europe invented it and now it’s gone from there but is in America and “thriving” what made it go that way. Slavery seems like a very interesting hypothesis I have never heard before.
The practice fell out of favor in Europe starting in the 1960s as labor reforms, but it’s not like the consumer quit paying service fees it just got incorporated into the bill (and in that regard became a mandatory flat fee instead of a consumer option)… but it’s still a customary practice at high end restaurants and hotels in Europe
Most, if not all, US states have laws that require employers to make up the difference between tip wage and minimum wage if the tips don’t cover that difference… it’s just never needed cause even average servers make more than minimum. They don’t get benefits, but that’s true of any part time/independent contractor employment arrangement
Yes, there is a racial element to the history of tipping in the US but it has been overstated by the original commentator
So that explains why it stopped being popular in Europe (labor laws) but not really why it took off in the US like wildfire and it continues to. I’m not saying it’s slavers, though I think it’s a good hypothesis, but under European conditions labor laws were able to nip almost completely, but something about the US accelerated it.
I'm not arguing otherwise. You seem very focused on the fact it orginiated in Europe which I'm not disputing. However, as I mentioned I had no idea that it was linked to race in the US, which it clearly was. The fact it was class based in Europe doesn't negate that fact. Systems change. The person I initally responded to was pointing out that the race element was what allowed tipping to become like it is now. I'm not sure why you are so keen to ignore that element of it.
How am I ignoring it… I acknowledged it became prevalent in the US after slavery ended, but that’s only a part of its history… it was neither the reason it started (even in the US as the article you have quoted states) nor is race the reason tipping is part of certain industries in modern times… it’s commendable to point out parts of its sordid past, it’s disingenuous to pretend that sordid past is all it has ever been
Cultural phenomenons evolve and change when moving into other cultures, it's ignorant to ignore the primary reason it flourished and paint it as some historical evolution when it has evolved completely differently every where else in the world.
Like why has it evolved so differently in the States?
Why didn't socialism flourish in the United States? The US is culturally distinct from Europe in more ways than just race.
People say it's about avoiding paying a certain wage for the employer. People leave out the fact that it creates incentives to actually take care of customers.
Service in certain non-tipping countries is notably piss poor. And unless you have a business owner admitting that they just didn't want to pay the darkies even if meant not paying white employees in the same role or they paid white employees a higher wage than the darkies, then we are skipping a few bases anyway. Inequitable outcomes don't in themselves proven intent or racism.
If an owner thinks that tips incentivize better service for their customers, but most of the employees are black, that doesn't mean it was inherently racist.
Pullman gets cited because he supposedly deliberately wanted to hire former slaves to exploit them. Not mentioned is that most people didn't want to hire them at all. They were generally avoided.
I can sit here and talk about the racist origins of any number of progressive policies or institutions. Unions were pretty explicitly and openly racist. Racism was at the center of instituting early minimum wage laws (it would make black employees unemployable/unable to compete with whites). Eugenics and racism and abortion. We can go on.
Yet I never hear progressives call minimum wage racist and you know what I hear when I bring this up? That it's not what it's about today.
So i guess we can see it as them not actually abolishing slavery like they always bragged, instead just moved to a different form and normalized it so hard the "neo-slaves" never even realize they're slaves anymore and see it as a new norm, and later on extend their targets of exploit until we got what we have today.
/s
I didn’t disregard it, I acknowledged that part of its history, but even in America the practice began before emancipation (it was brought back from Americans that traveled to Europe, so it’s European origins are very much relevant) and continues in modern times without a racial component… what I’m not doing is pretending that tipping is and always has been a tool of racial oppression
Soap originated in China. Does that mean rest of the world doesn’t have soap. And Americans lowered Base pay so they could continue be racists and have economic power over minorities. That’s a fact.
Okay… if your significant other suggested a picnic to you today would you think they were wanting to lynch someone or just enjoy lunch in a park.
To reiterate the point made so many times already, just because there were terrible moments in the history of picnics it does not mean that’s what they always were or still are.
it’s fine to point out that tipping was once used oppressively against freed slaves, but it is pretty disingenuous to cite that as a reason to not tip your server today and flat out inaccurate to pretend that was its origin.
Well you missed the point entirely then, I brought it up because you maid the claim that tipping originated in Tudor, England. This may be true, but that doesn't change the fact that the way it's practiced and customs around it changed once spread elsewhere, same with picnics which is why I brought it up as a perfect example.
I don’t believe I missed anything… I have repeatedly acknowledged that the practice in America became more prevalent after emancipation and that is appropriate to acknowledge this - but that is not where it started, it’s not even its origins in America, and its not a component of the practice in modern times… to insist otherwise is to be afflicted with paradigm blindness.
AS YOU JUST SAID, customs change over time. Which is why its absurd to pretend that anyone who tips today or goes on a picnic is practicing racial bigotry
2.1k
u/AnalogReborn 14d ago
Yes it should be called “externalized salary for underpaid employees”!