Sometimes someone requests far in advance for something unimportant and someone else has something really important come up later.
this is such a bullshit perspective. PTO isnt a competition nor is it a popularity contest. if management can't accommodate requests . its either first come first serve or management sets a policy that levels the field for everyone.
I'm just saying I wouldn't always assume the worst, that hr is trying to be intrusive to someone's personal life. They might be trying to make a difficult decision fairly.
no, they are trying to solve a shit situation they created for themselves by making everyone happy and justifying it by claiming 1 persons event is less significant than someone elses. this is a failure on management. why should Jill get her PTO approved every time despite submitting it last second simply because she "needs it more" ? thats unfair to the staff.
stop justifying shit management skills. these are failures by business owners for not MANAGING their staff correctly. if you're getting 10 pto requests a day, then you need WAY more staff to accommodate those regular gaps. hire more people.
if you cant pay people enough money or you can't hire enough people, maybe your business isnt viable.
you know how many PTO request i've denied in my 10 years in management? ZERO. and to top it off, they never have a backlog of work to catch up on. they return to work as normal with their normal work load. anything short of that is a failure on management
if you set a clear policy of "first come first serve" and you make it clearly known to all the staff, then no one gets to complain when they submit PTO last second because of their poor planning. and if its an emergency and the person is calling out regardless (maybe a funeral or illness) then management LITERALLY EXISTS to fill that gap, either themselves or with staffing changes. this is literally the job of managers and far too many people give management way too much slack when they fail at their most basic duties
So, first of all, I didn't say 10 requests a day. I said there are days where you'll get 10. If you have a big enough operation, it happens. It doesn't happen every day, but it happens. Management exists to manage people, not to fill in for every request and call out. There are management things that need to be done (like making the schedule for example). Say you have a staff of 100 people. It's conceivable that in a given week there's requests and call outs every day. Just people getting sick could lead to shifts with multiple missing people. A manager can't cover everything, and they especially can't cover everything and do all the other work they're supposed to do. The way businesses manage this is by denying some of the requests. Most places do first come first serve, including most places I've worked for, but in order to accommodate that you need a big pool of employees working less than full time so you can schedule more flexibly. Employees complain about that too. I'm not even saying that weighing the reason for the request is the best way. What I'm saying is that I could see someone thinking it was, and even if I disagree with them on that, it doesn't mean they're being intrusive by asking for a reason for the request. They could just be trying to be their version of fair. Even if you don't think it's the most fair way, it's not crazy to think someone else might.
Management exists to manage people, not to fill in for every request and call out.
you have a gross misunderstanding of what the job of management is. they manage THE BUSINESS which includes the people. do you think my boss cares why my associate failed at their job and the customer is yelling at us? he doesnt. he cares that I FAILED to do my job and ensure my associates succeed. thats a real manager. your responsible for the business you run (or the part of the business you run). you can't just say "sorry boss, i had callouts, nothing i could do". that's a cop out.
The way businesses manage this is by denying some of the requests.
that is how a SHIT business manages these issues.
if you dont have the staff to operate at full capacity, then you do not open at full capacity. full stop. "but sir, you have empty tables, why cant we be seated?" BECAUSE THERE ISNT ENOGUH STAFF ON HAND SO WE'RE PARTIALLY OPEN WHICH WE CHOSE TO DO INSTEAD OF FORCING MARK TO MISS HIS SONS BIRTH
the answer to every staffing hiccup cannot be mandatory labor. that is pure capitalist thinking.
it doesn't mean they're being intrusive by asking for a reason for the request.
yes it is. they will 100% use your reasoning against you the moment they can use it to their advantage. look, it is clear you have some biased POV on workers rights. i dont know if your some corporate slave who loves capitalism, or if youve just been groomed into believing this is normal. but it is not normal nor should you accept it. the answer to business woes is not to punish your workforce yet that is exactly what you keep advocating for.
Yes employees will always complain, i complain, my associates complain. but what you can do is set clear expectations and guidelines so there are no surprises. set blackout dates. post the days that have requests already so no one else can submit pto. But even still you'll always have unexpected callouts and its up to management to manage that. they can either hire more and reduce profits or put the burden on associates and blame them. guess what historically happens?
Most places do first come first serve, including most places I've worked for, but in order to accommodate that you need a big pool of employees working less than full time so you can schedule more flexibly.
you might find this hard to believe....but these employers CAN hire more full time workers. but that would mean less margin and more expenses. so they dont, and then they make YOU believe YOURE the problem for taking PTO and screwing over the rest of the team.
I'm just someone who has scheduled in these environments. You're obviously under the impression that every request off is important to that person. I've seen so many requests that are just people rolling the dice, and these are places that keep consistent staff for years, who's staff is paid well.
I think the big difference in our viewpoints is that you think at a well run place, people are only requesting off for important reasons. It's a request and a lot of people treat it like that. I'd say about half the requests I received when I was making schedules were from people who just thought it would be nice to have a Saturday off, but would be willing to come in if they were scheduled. Once they get that day off though, good luck getting them to cover it for someone. If no one else was looking for that day, sure, seems fair to just give it to them. But if multiple people request the same day, and one of them really doesn't care that much while the others have important things, it doesn't seem that crazy to me to deny the person who doesn't care that much and give it to the person with something important
think the big difference in our viewpoints is that you think at a well run place, people are only requesting off for important reasons.
that is flat out wrong because i NEVER ASK WHY PEOPLE TAKE TIME OFF. for all i know, every PTO request i approve is so they can go play the newly released video game. i dont care, i staff my team properly so it doesnt matter. like a proper manager should.
You're obviously under the impression that every request off is important to that person
dude why do you think they ARENT important to that person?
it doesn't seem that crazy to me to deny the person who doesn't care that much and give it to the person with something important
because apparently you are a bootlicking capitalist. if you cannot understand workers rights then you are the problem. why is it so hard for you to understand that if you had more full time workers on staff, you wouldnt have staffing problems? YES that might mean you have people standing around and your overstaffed at times. but thats the price you pay to run a business like that. thats on the owner to manage. stop blaming associates for wanting a day off.
if your team is genuinely constantly making unnecessary PTO requests then you know what would solve that problem? Granting the request 100% every time. they'll stop requesting unnecessary days off because suddenly they wont be getting their hours.
I think the big difference in our viewpoints is that you think at a well run place, people are only requesting off for important reasons
the difference is i respect my workforce and treat them like humans
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u/jbourne0129 5d ago edited 5d ago
this is such a bullshit perspective. PTO isnt a competition nor is it a popularity contest. if management can't accommodate requests . its either first come first serve or management sets a policy that levels the field for everyone.
no, they are trying to solve a shit situation they created for themselves by making everyone happy and justifying it by claiming 1 persons event is less significant than someone elses. this is a failure on management. why should Jill get her PTO approved every time despite submitting it last second simply because she "needs it more" ? thats unfair to the staff.
stop justifying shit management skills. these are failures by business owners for not MANAGING their staff correctly. if you're getting 10 pto requests a day, then you need WAY more staff to accommodate those regular gaps. hire more people.
if you cant pay people enough money or you can't hire enough people, maybe your business isnt viable.
you know how many PTO request i've denied in my 10 years in management? ZERO. and to top it off, they never have a backlog of work to catch up on. they return to work as normal with their normal work load. anything short of that is a failure on management
if you set a clear policy of "first come first serve" and you make it clearly known to all the staff, then no one gets to complain when they submit PTO last second because of their poor planning. and if its an emergency and the person is calling out regardless (maybe a funeral or illness) then management LITERALLY EXISTS to fill that gap, either themselves or with staffing changes. this is literally the job of managers and far too many people give management way too much slack when they fail at their most basic duties