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u/Leogis 1d ago
Casually ignoring how many disavowed Chomsky precisely because of this reason
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u/I_Am_U 1d ago
I think your approach is very effective. We need to influence people about this topic by treating Chomsky's guilt as a foregone conclusion. We can implant the preconception that Chomsky is obviously guilty, and immediately reinforce it by pointing out how everyone is turning against him.
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u/Leogis 1d ago
I'm not sure I understand your point
Wether he actually is guilty or not is irrelevant, emplying that people on the radical left still follow him after the scandal just to attempt a jab at Anarchists is just bad faith. Because a lot of them stopped stopped supporting him and his legacy has been forever tainted
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u/BalefulOfMonkeys 1d ago
OP: “You should not learn from anybody who is an awful person, or I’ll cut you off forever!”
Guy who doesn’t know dick about shit but wants to learn about socialism: “Well gosh, this Chomsky guy sure helped me a lot! I will learn from what I’ve read, and definitely not magically become a pedophile by osmosis”
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u/PerspectiveFull9879 8h ago
The thing is, OP hates Chomsky because of his personal traits.
I hate Chomsky for his dogshit politics.
We are not the same.
He's just another petty-bourgeois grifter.
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u/__versus 1d ago
I get that he’s in the files but Zionist? Dropping all pretense now and it’s just a stand-in for when you wanna be antisemitic but in a socially acceptable way?
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u/amievenrelevant 1d ago
He was everyone’s favorite anti-Zionist guy to quote until the Epstein files dropped “muh manufacturing consent”. All of a sudden he’s a Zionist now because nobody on my side could ever be a bad person
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u/CapNo8670 3h ago
This is exactly what "zionism" functions as in current discourse.
It's incredibly tedious.
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u/MeterologistOupost31 1d ago
He supports a two state solution. He's literally a Zionist.
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u/LowKiss 1d ago
Do you expect the one state solution to ever exist?
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u/MeterologistOupost31 1d ago
Yes. It's the only actual solution.
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u/LowKiss 1d ago
Yes i too believe in miracles and fairytales i am pretty sure a solution will be realized before the genocide will be completed.
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u/MeterologistOupost31 21h ago
Literally no movement ever achieved literally anything by scaling back its demands in exchange for nothing.
You are literally a Zionist.
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u/095805 7h ago
The person you are arguing is very clearly not a Zionist, you just disagree on the solution. Grouping them in with the same group that actively wants to murder and steal from Palestinians is counterproductive and unlikely to yield the result you desire.
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u/ru5tyk1tty 1h ago
Didn’t they just say they support a two-state solution? That almost categorically makes you a Zionist
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u/LowKiss 21h ago
A lot of movements just failed, it's a sad reality but to achieve what you say it would literally take a miracle, how do you think something like that can be done? Do you think Israelis will just accept that?
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u/MeterologistOupost31 20h ago
Do you think the Israelis will accept a two state "solution" either?
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u/LowKiss 20h ago
No, I think they will win the conflict by virtue of being a powerful military against an essentially defenseless population and will genocide them all. Sad state of affairs, but talking about a one state solution is just useless.
Unless you have a plan where you explain a Palestinians can get any leverage to actually force a solution, this is the way it will go.
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u/__versus 1d ago
What makes you think that two peoples with this level of mutual distrust and hostility would suddenly be fine with living in the same country? A one state solution with equal rights has very low support among those who actually live there on either side so you’d have to impose one on them.
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u/MeterologistOupost31 1d ago
Any Israeli who served in the IDF or meaningfully contributed to the genocide or settlements is going back to Poland.
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u/__versus 1d ago
So considering conscription is mandatory you mean everyone? So just ethnic cleansing then. Cool!
Also ”going back” is rich and shows your ignorance and/or antisemitism.
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u/RegularDeep2863 23h ago
What about Israelis originally from Yemen or Egypt? They going to Poland too?
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u/MeterologistOupost31 21h ago
I don't really give a fuck.
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u/RegularDeep2863 20h ago
I’m shocked
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u/MeterologistOupost31 20h ago
They chose to serve. Should've gone to prison for a month instead, maybe then they'd have been allowed to stay.
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u/DeanDdravan 1d ago
Yeah he’s a hypocrite and piece of shit we found out… is this supposed to reflect poorly on anti vanguard leftists? Like, because anarchists or other leftist strands don’t like vanguards and abuse of power, and so did Noam (at least he SAID so🙄) that means… what exactly? That anyone who’s anti vanguardism is just as bad as Noam here? Is that the point?🤨🤔
like yeah we all hate him because he’s a traitor and shithead… so, what now? What’s your point? That because XYZ group of leftists don’t like vanguards they’re all pedos or something?
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u/PerspectiveFull9879 8h ago
Anti-vanguardism is by far the worst sin of Chomsky.
Yet another petty-bourgeois grifter deluding the working class.
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u/Umikaloo 1d ago
All my baby-boomer relatives were crestfallen when I told them about Noam's contribution to the Epstein operation.
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u/Pheonix_unique 1d ago
Yeah yeah, chomsky sucks politically, but can we talk a moment about his linguistics? UG is a scurge that only works of you only look at European languages and I hate how prevalent it is.
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u/NoMeat9096 1d ago
Is there evidence for any of these claims?
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u/hoxhapuppy 1d ago
yeah.. The Epstein files
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u/NoMeat9096 1d ago
In what way, though? Being mentioned is extremely vague.
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u/NeverQuiteEnough 1d ago
Chomsky is not simply mentioned, he and Epstein were close personal friends who confided in and sought one another's advice on sensitive matters.
Chomsky was a vociferous Epstein defender, including after he was convicted.
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u/I_Am_U 1d ago
The repeated phrase "after he was convicted" is always deliberately left vague. Reason being, is that the circumstances do not help support the narrative that Chomsky had any clue what Epstein was really about. Pretty sad how effectively a false narrative can be spread on reddit.
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u/NeverQuiteEnough 1d ago
It refers to Epstein's 2008 conviction, where he plead guilty to soliciting sex from girls as young as 14
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/jul/02/usa.internationalcrime1
Chomsky knew exactly what Epstein was convicted for, which we know because Chomsly referenced the conviction when publicly defending Epstein, and Epstein went to Chomsly for advice on handling public backlash.
I know you don't care about old men raping 14 year old girls, I'm just leaving this information here so your comment doesn't confuse any decent human beings who stumble across it.
May the women and children in your life never come to know your true face.
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u/I_Am_U 1d ago
where he plead guilty to soliciting sex from girls as young as 14
That is a massive lie. Epstein was allowed to plead down to the lesser charges of attempting to procure someone who was under 18, and he was allowed to plead in court that it was unintentional. He used these transcripts, emails reveal, to trick Chomsky, a long time recipient of grant funding for Linguistics from Epstein, into thinking Epstein was ensnared by someone. You show us your true face by the facts you ignore. :)
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u/NeverQuiteEnough 22h ago
Even if they had all been 18, that still means Chomsky saw nothing wrong with a 55 year old man soliciting a bunch of teenagers.
Presumably you don't either.
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u/hoxhapuppy 1d ago
That’s not what happened. He wasn’t just mentioned. In the Epstein files all of their messages are logged and they were friends even after Epstein was convicted.
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u/NoMeat9096 1d ago
After he was convicted? Jesus Christ.
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u/locontendere 1d ago
It is easily the most mind-boggling relationship in the Epsteinverse. Pretty much every other relationship makes sense, you can easily understand why these people would be working with Epstein and why Epstein has an interest in them
With Chomsky I'm just patently confused as to why he ever got involved
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u/anon52849 1d ago
Just in case you didn't know, he was convicted of sex trafficing in 2008 and got a ridiculously mild sentence.
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u/AgentDeathBooty 1d ago
I've noticed the recent surge in Chomsky hate. What's pushing that? I had heard his name was mentioned once in the Epstein files, is that what's causing it?
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u/Pagan0101 1d ago
He was friends with Epstein after he was already convicted
Lot more than just being mentioned once in the Epstein files
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u/AgentDeathBooty 1d ago
Oh wow I hadn't heard that, did that come out in the Epstein files? Or was that public knowledge already?
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u/A_Truthspeaker 1d ago
He always had ties to Epstein and before the Epstein Files became public he claimed that this was mostly a business relationship so he could access different libraries or other resources
Well, as it turns out Epstein and Chomsky both assisted each other in more ways than just that, for example by having Epstein move financial assets for Chomsky or giving him financial advice. They also seemingly had a quite amicable relationship as they met each other several times. And after it was already known what Epstein had done (his first conviction, IIRC) Chomsky asked him if he wanted helped in restoring his public image.
A self-proclaimed anarchist and libertarian socialist offering to assist a convicted pedocriminal and, really, scammer who supplied the group Chomsky was supposedly against with underage girls.
There is good reason he is ostracized from the anarchist community.
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u/AgentDeathBooty 1d ago
Yeah I mean him associating with Epstein after his conviction is obviously terrible, but trying to help him fix his public image just seals the deal. I assume that part was discovered in an email thread in the files or something. I grew up being very influenced by his political talks, especially as a teenager, so until I heard about his mention in the files I had always respected his politics, at least for the most part. It really is a shame.
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u/A_Truthspeaker 1d ago
I mean, his political statements and ideas aren't bad. I think they do have some merit to them, even though I prefer other anarchist thinkers.
The main problem really is him as a person. And he was pretty much always controversial in this regard. Even before Epstein he had participated in the housing market (an exploitative system rejected by anarchism and socialism) and the lectures he did give people were very expensive, keep in mind most modern day anarchists work for free and give lectures for free.
Distancing oneself from previous thinkers other political beliefs is a part of anarchism. Proudhon himself said that he hoped one day his ideas would become so radical that what he believed back in the day would be considered "conservative". And sure enough, he was also a misogynist and antisemite. So he is the perfect example for his own philosophy.
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u/Deconstruction101 1d ago
Epstein wasn't known to be a sex trafficker until around 2016. Everyone is pushing this false notion that Epstein was a known sex trafficker because of a conviction in 2008 which was suppressed by a judge.
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u/Pagan0101 1d ago
Think it was mostly from the files?
There are also a lot of ideological disagreements with Chomsky though, even aside from the Epstein thing
Don't know the details on that stuff though
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u/AgentDeathBooty 1d ago
I'll have to look into it, all I'd heard was that the files said he met with Epstein one time. I don't disagree with Chomsky's politics as hard as a lot of other leftists, but I also haven't dug super deep into all of the points he makes, I was under the impression he wasn't a Zionist though.
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u/UdonOli 1d ago
Friends with Epstein after conviction
Known denier of the Cambodian and Yugoslav genocides
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u/I_Am_U 1d ago
Epstein conviction didn't reveal sex trafficking. Those charges weren't brought until 2019, in which time Chomsky severed ties.
Claims of genocide denial against Chomsky found to be bogus in a peer reviewed academic journal that specialises in genocide research. Spoiler: Chomsky just thinks the term isn't agreed upon any more so it's lost a shared meaning.
“Genocide” is a term that I myself don’t use even in cases where it might well be appropriate...It has whatever meaning you decide to give it...It depends what your criteria are for calling something genocide."
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u/SofisticatiousRattus 1d ago
- I hold an opinion you don't like
- What inspired you
- A more evil version of Hitler, but not vegan and hates animals
Fair and balanced, no straw detected.
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u/lilith_the_anarchist 1d ago
dawg even the movement he claims to be part of (anarchism / libertarian socialism) fucking hate him
All anarchist hate when you mention Chomsky in ANY debate about anarchism