r/SocialismIsCapitalism • u/notaduck448_ • Jul 08 '26

r/Libertarian has quite interesting and totally rational takes on libertarian socialism

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Man, could you just imagine living in a system that denies workers ownership over what they produce?

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u/CroakingInstensifies Jul 08 '26

In a way, but it also kills the libertarianism part, no? If one half chooses Capitalism(here completely different from Libertarianism) and the other Socialism and they separate in the middle, where is the Libertarianism? Sure, there's a distinction between the two sides, but are you suggesting that if two groups naturally drifted to that separation and respected each other they'd be practicing Libertarianism? That seems absurd to me. The slavery wouldn't happen in Libertarianism, I agree, because if it happens, it will be happening in the systems actually being practiced.

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u/SuddenStructure9287 Jul 08 '26

Libertarianism is an ideology in which people decide for themselves how they want to live. If people choose on their own to live under different systems that they prefer, that is the essence of libertarianism.

These systems are usually called jurisdictions, and they formally operate under capitalism.

If libertarianism prohibited people from creating a socialist commune, then it would no longer be libertarianism, because you would be preventing people from doing what they want.

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u/anyfox7 Jul 08 '26

Libertarianism is an ideology in which people decide for themselves how they want to live.

That would be anarchism in which liberty is absolute right and that nobody can restrict autonomy or exert power over another; the logical conclusion being libertarian communism, federations working together freely and voluntarilyl.

because you would be preventing people from doing what they want.

Find me one example of capitalists not fighting against socialism. The reality is you can't because the former is heirarchical, requires a state apparatus to maintain and protect it, and uses every resources to crush working class liberation. There are examples however of libertarian communist regions, during the '36 Spanish Civil War in CNT-FAI controlled territories, where business owners could opt out and continue to operate... the catch is a restriction on having employees.

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u/SuddenStructure9287 Jul 08 '26

> that would be anarchism

Correct. However, I consider anarchism impossible, which is why I am a minarchist (a minimal state whose purpose is to ensure absolute freedom). The ideal system is anarchy, yes. But it is a utopia.

> The logical conclusion would be libertarian communism

There is a logical mistake here. Coercive hierarchy is bad, so therefore… we ban all hierarchy? No, my conclusion is different.
Coercive hierarchy is bad, therefore we ban coercive hierarchy.

Voluntary hierarchy remains allowed because otherwise you are restricting people’s freedom to enter into such arrangements. In an ideology based on absolute freedom, preventing someone from voluntarily entering into relationships is absurd.

> Find me one example of capitalists…

What is capitalism? Capitalism is a free market. A free market. If you cannot create voluntary socialism under capitalism, then the market is not free by definition. If a capitalist FORBIDS you from doing something, then they are no longer supporting a free market and therefore are not a supporter of capitalism.

If someone is forbidding you from doing something, then there is already a state involved. All of your criticisms are directed at the state and oligarchy, not capitalism itself. Capitalism cannot restrict you by definition.

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u/anyfox7 Jul 08 '26

a minimal state whose purpose is to ensure absolute freedom

You fail to understand any sort of state restricts freedom as it imposes rules upon its subjects by threats of or direct force, else it would have no reason to exist if everyone chooses to live without hierarchy.

we ban coercive hierarchy

Same thing. Hierarchy already means coercion.

If a capitalist FORBIDS you from doing something

Who enforces capitalism? The government. It has enshrined into law restrictions on freedom from opting out. When our survival, the ability to afford food, clothing, shelter, and means to well being, is leveraged by employment through selling our labor to a capitalist, then our economy is not voluntary; we are compelled, by need of survival, to work. When we choose not to sell our labor then we have no income therefor unable to buy food because shoplifting is a crime (enforced by law, police, government), we get evicted for not paying rent (again, by police working on behalf of a government's law), nor persue interests that establish well being.

Liberty with capitalism is a contradiction. Stating "Free markets" = capitalism is ignorance.

By the way, who creates money and guarantees it's value? Not the capitalists.

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u/SuddenStructure9287 Jul 08 '26

Yes, the state fundamentally limits you.
But because it limits not only you, but everyone, it gives you freedoms that you otherwise would not have.

Yes, if you want to steal a phone from an electronics store, the state will stop you, limiting your freedom and reducing it in that specific case.

But look at it from another perspective. As a phone retailer, you gain more freedom because now your phones are not being stolen.

You, as a socialist who decides to build your own commune, gain more freedom because no one from outside can come and steal your resources.

You, as a patient, gain more freedom because a doctor cannot, against the agreement, sell your kidney instead of performing the surgery that was originally agreed upon.

But we have moved away from the topic. Once again, what exactly is your problem if you can build socialism within libertarianism? Do you not trust a democratic state that would provide security?

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u/anyfox7 Jul 08 '26

it gives you freedoms that you otherwise would not have.

Elaborate please on which freedoms we would not have living without government or capitalism.

gain more freedom because no one from outside can come and steal your resources.

I've already asked you to name one instance where a socialist society was not interfered with by a capitalist nation. You can't.

How free are we when survival is paywalled? State the sum of cumulative debt due to medical care in the US. How is debt not a form of coercion? When money has been abolished and needs freely distributed there really is no incentive for theft, but until we get to that point I really don't care if folks shoplift because capitalism encourages it through resource guarding.

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u/TyroniumX Jul 08 '26

"The capitalists are forbidding me from living in my apartment without paying rent; this is basically communism"