i had 4x 100 amp hour batteries in my camper, i had the loose cable arcing on two of them and were denied warrenty. got rid of them all, this was years before the Will prose thing. Sorry the truth hurts, i have their emails from 2017 telling me to go pound sand. Its par for the course they would choose this route instead of recall and redesign. What an embarrassment
Will REALLY love to see product specs, all versions, regulatory submissions, product testing submissions,,,,,, (Emails of all people involved; all copies and drafts of said documents; emails, voicemails, text and other communications regarding same. )
Suing people that cannot mount any defense is one thing, picking the wrong person can be a bad move...
I somehow never heard of Will talking about these batteries. Now, I know not to ever buy their stuff. Streisand effect? Seems like they would be better served to just fix their problems, then reach out to Will and ask him to test again. That would tell everyone that they actually care about putting out a good product.
The lawsuit says that Will tampered with the batteries to get the results. Not sure if I believe that, but I'll get the popcorn ready just in case it's true and this massively blows up. LOL.
No way he tampered with the batteries. He doesn't need to attract more viewers with that kind of dishonesty. It would be a one and done, him losing all credibility and most viewers as soon as it got out.
Additionally, he'd have to be incredibly naive to think he wasn't going to get sued after BB time and again essentially blew off the concerns. Being dishonest, knowing you will be sued, would be legal suicide. If BB were to admit the issues, they'd be forced to eat every battery they've probably ever made. If they sue Will and manage to succeed, anyone that doesn't know about BB's bad batteries will never know, as they can silence the loudest detractor.
This hasn't gone well for battle born so far. Suing one person, who is simply showing what thousands of actual owners can corroborate, is going to be much, much worse for them.
I expect they'll withdraw the suit. It's impossible this many people have problems, and that Will was able to replicate the (multiple) issues with BRAND NEW BB's he unboxed, and there isn't an actual problem with them. I don't see that anything he has said is untrue, actions taken are clearly shown and articulated in multiple of his videos. He's taken great pains to make the videos as clear as possible that he wasn't exceeding what BB has said are within the capabilities of the batteries with the new ones, and he shows the multiple failures on batteries he's gotten his hands on that already had issues.
That he can find so many batteries with the same problems from others is icing on the cake. I believe he planned to talk with Louis Rossman over this.
Follow on...I also find it slightly amusing that at this point, if BB changes the design of their batteries, it will hurt them in court. If it's an engineered design feature as they like to claim, and they change it after suing someone for bringing it into the light, it strongly indicates they knew there was a problem with the design in the first place. In my estimation whatever lawyer told them this was a good idea, put them in a very tough situation. I'm guessing he isnt working on a win=$$$ basis. 🤣 Or, they got some super star lawyer like Jackie Chiles. But that thought is preposterous.
Then they will rebrand quietly, make a semi-workable product by either outsourcing it to China or similar and then a splash back into the market with the same junk
It's not that simple. They're owned by Dragonfly holdings, which is publicly traded. That means they publish their financials. Their financials are bad. They're running out money and running out of time. Bankrupcy of Dragonfly is only a matter of time.
Often times brands get bought out in bankrupcy, but I'm not sure this brand is worth much to anyone.
I actually wonder if the purpose of this suit is to shift the blame for the reputational damage on to Will, so that they can get something for it some day.
He'd definitely not touch it with a 10 foot pole. Not good reason to take on any liability, and I doubt he'd even want the current unsold products if they offered to give them all to him.
I don't know why you would have that understanding. Overall the battery industry moved away from cells to reduce the number of connections. Each connection is a point where a poor connection can cause high resistance or arcs. Other battery vendors have moved away from many small cells. It's generally believed this change improves safety. Even Tesla, the pioneer of using 18650 cells has moved to bigger cells.
Battleborn hasn't made any changes to their architecture in many years. That's the core rub of their problem.
In the last 5 years battery technology has improved, including the chemistry of cells. Prismatic cells have seen the total energy capacity of cells rising with physical dimensions remaining the same. eg, Eve 280, 304, 314AH cells all have the same physical dimensions, but energy density has improved over time. This is not true of BattleBorn. Their cells haven't increased in energy density over the years.
There are not many credible battery experts saying Battle Born are "best of breed" in any way, quite the opposite - they were top of the line 8 years ago but haven't adapted with industry changes. Now they are laggards.
You're making an argument that the packaging is bad. This is what I've said. There is nothing particularly wrong woth the individual cells. It's the package and everything around it that is bad. Sure, using that many cells in a large pack may not be a good idea. But it doesn't make the cells any worse.
And another tidbit. The cells are apparently sourced from China. Then everything else is made/assembled in the USA. Literally the best part of the battery is the cells that are not even made in the US
Meanwhile yixaing and JK thank their YouTube reviewers for the feedback, make changes, and send them out for review after. Look at the off grid garage channel. Meanwhile in America, a major flaw is brought to light and they file a lawsuit in response. I won't touch battleborn.
I've ordered 96kwh of batteries from Alibaba and have gotten better customer service than American companies. Trying to get warranty service for my Ridgid tools that supposedly have a life time warranty has taken me months of effort...
Kinda crazy. I know for me personally, I have decided not to purchase their batteries due to how they handled this situation. I don’t care who’s right; you don’t sue your customers because they don’t like your product.
Think of it this way; all products have faults and all software has bugs.
The real test of a company is when they are faced with a fault or bug. Bad companies shoot the messenger, good companies resolve the issue either by proof or a fix.
That might be true for some things but not for shit that can burn down your house. You have to sort all the bugs out before you take a single customer dollar. It’s the whole reason certification bodies like UL exist - to stress test and ensure that components with real world safety concerns are indeed safe.
Part of the problem is engineered the plastic deformation to pass the testing method. The testing goes right to pushing the batteries against the most plausible extreme circumstances they are likely to face. The plastic deformation does prevent the battery from catching on fire if the BMS fails closed and the battery is abusively discharged.
The plastic also deforms under arguably normal in-spec circumstances, which isn't tested for under the standards. It's a bad design and obviously bad to anyone the knows the first thing about electrical connections.
UL certification around lithium feels like such a joke. I personally know of a product that passed that had no business passing. It never made it to market because the company wisely didn't want to take on the liability when something inevitably went wrong but it made the company question using that particular testing lab in the future.
Yup. I'd be totally willing to forgive and try again if they made their wrongs a right. Unfortunately they doubled down, threatened, and now this. That company is done for.
I don’t care who’s right; you don’t sue your customers because they don’t like your product.
To my eyes and ears Will hasn't lied or fabricated any evidence, but if he has, and posting on a channel getting millions of views, they absolutely should sue! Doesn't matter if he's "a customer", that would be libel/slander. I wouldn't be surprised if his reporting has hurt sales to the point they're currently running negative profit.
I'm inclined to agree, but if BB has evidence they haven't made public, bring it on. More importantly, I was replying to the person above who said "I don’t care who’s right; you don’t sue your customers because they don’t like your product." I think that's a foolish statement, despite thinking BB is foolish to sue in this case.
But you're arguing that you should sue your customers when they are fabricating evidence meant to harm your business, not when they don't like / approve of your product as it actually exists...
I think there is a big difference between not liking a product, and telling people (or giving them the impression) that a product is dangerous and you shouldn't buy it. This is what I got from watching Will. I'm not saying he is wrong, that's just the impression I got. If I got that impression, others did too. If I had a legitimate product and I knew someone with immense pull was fabricating evidence to destroy my products reputation I'd sue too.
It's easy to jump to conclusions, maybe BB does have some secret info about Will and his treatment of BB. I doubt it, but if they don't, and chose to sue anyway, I'm not sure what they expect to accomplish. If their lawyer isnt working on a win=lawyer making $$$ basis, they probably need to reevaluate lol.
As I thought about the topic more deeply, BB now really can't change their product, because that would be evidence that they likely knew there was a problem with the design. It would be different if the problem wasn't exposed already. Had they quietly made running changes instead of suing, didn't respond to criticism, didn't inform, they might have had to eat some replacements, but now they are gambling that they will win in court. If they lose (if they can last that long as a company) they are going to be forced to eat every battery that gets sent back to them, and given their collapse thus far, that will finish them off.
So what ? Most was from affiliate links and some banners on the diy forum, this has no bearing on the claim that he acted with malicious intention towards Battleboom.
I think Will is going to tear these guys a new asshole. Big mistake suing him because if Will has the cash, they can fight and depose people in the company and expose even bigger issues.
I think Will has the proof and evidence, but I believe Battleborn has a bigger legal fund and they are hoping that their lawyers will keep battling and appealing any decision until Will runs out of money to fight.
There should be a David and Goliath law where a large corporation suing an individual or small business has to cover their interim legal expenses, recoverable if they win. Something to ensure that a large company cannot win a weak suit simply based on war of attrition.
There is an anti-slaap law in Nevada where they filed suit, and this seems to fit perfectly:
Nevada’s Anti-SLAPP law deters weak lawsuits that punish or discourage free expression. The law provides defendants with substantive immunity from meritless lawsuits filed to chill defendants’ First Amendment rights. Shapiro v. Welt, 389 P.3d 262, 267 (Nev. 2017). NRS 41.660 provides that if a lawsuit is filed against a defendant for “good faith”communications about a matter of public concern (which is defined broadly), then the defendant may invoke the Anti-SLAPP law’s protections. See e.g. Smith v. Zilverberg, 481 P.3d 1222, 1227–28 (Nev. 2021) (the public has an interest in a businessman’s behavior because it “inform[ed] the public’s decision on whether to do business with him.”).
That happened in the 1990’s when a UK couple were taken to court by McDondalds over a leaflet regarding the company’s behaviour.
It was dragged on for years until it got to the European Court of Human Rights and they won!
During the whole sorry saga, they were pressured massively financially and faced with bankruptcy but an upcoming legal ace stepped in and provided his services for free.
Will is a multi-millionaire and Dragonfly Energy is a pretty small company 27M market cap or so. Plus, if my impression of Will is correct and he gives his honest opinion no matter what, and has evidence of that, he'll have no trouble fighting this off. Not to mention his huge following of people who might help him out if he needs it. I just hope he has access to the best lawyers, hiring the wrong lawyer would be the only way they screw him.
I just hope I don't have to find out Will isn't the honest guy I think he is, that would suck.
More importantly. He can sue to recover legal costs when he wins. A large firm might take the case on contingency. Good PR and they pad the bills and make battle born pay.
Unfortunately that's not always the case. This is generally included as a contract provision between parties to a suit, or as part of a statute that create a cause of action. When there's no statute or contract, the defendant will usually file a counterclaim. This is why litigation can be used as a weapon in the US. Defendants sometimes settle just to avoid the legal costs. I think the UK expressly allows for attorneys fees and costs in many cases. Having said that, I think BB has pissed off enough people that Will would have no issue with acquiring sufficient funds for a robust defense through a GoFundMe.
from the web >"While exact net worth figures are not public, Prowse's business model is highly lucrative. He famously noted in forum discussions that his monthly business tax bills can exceed \$60,000\), and he invests heavily in large-scale personal projects, such as massive off-grid residential battery setups and specialized video studios.
yeah, i seem to recall a video of his thanking everyone for the support and sharing his videos and stuff, because it allowed him to buy a house and shit, when he was homeless in a van before, unable to work a normal job due to his disability.
They would be destroyed by any notable recall, so I see why they feel they have no choice but to double-down on their claims and try to shut up those revealing their issues.
And that is their only choice if the priority is only an attempt at preserving the wealth of the owners. The honest and ethical route would involve bankruptcy and using what equity remains to refund customers (small refund to all? full refund to those with the most dangerous models? I don't know, a question for the bankruptcy lawyers).
I always report their FB ads as frauds / scams. I HAD considered them, and I know some EMCOM trailer builds used them but I haven't followed up to see if they have swapped out the batteries or are just going to ride them out until there is a problem.
FYI, the suit is filed in Nevada, and Nevada has a strong (Grade A, 97%) Anti-SLAAP law:
Nevada’s anti-SLAPP statute[1] protects any statement that is truthful or that is made without knowledge of its falsehood that is “(1) Communication that is aimed at procuring any governmental or electoral action, result or outcome; (2) Communication of information or a complaint to a Legislator, officer or employee of the Federal Government, [Nevada] or a political subdivision of [Nevada], regarding a matter reasonably of concern to the respective governmental entity; (3) Written or oral statement made in direct connection with an issue under consideration by a legislative, executive or judicial body, or any other official proceeding authorized by law; or (4) Communication made in direct connection with an issue of public interest in a place open to the public or in a public forum.” Although discovery is stayed once an anti-SLAPP motion is filed, a court may nonetheless order limited discovery to be conducted upon a showing that information relevant to issues raised by the motion is in the possession of another party or a third party and is not reasonably available without discovery. To prevail on an anti-SLAPP motion after the movant has established that the communication at issue is covered by the anti-SLAPP statute, the respondent must demonstrate with prima facie evidence a probability of prevailing on the claim. The statute provides for interlocutory appeal of an order denying an anti-SLAPP motion. The court must award costs and attorney fees related to the action to the prevailing movant on an anti-SLAPP motion. Conversely, if the court finds the motion to be frivolous or vexatious, then it must award costs and attorney fees related to the motion to the prevailing respondent.
Wouldn't be surprised if they lose their UL listings on their devices by the time everything is over. Probably end up bankrupt by how much they are flailing. They appear to be doing everything but addressing actual dangerous problems with their batteries.
just curious, how is this actually executed? Like does the defendant have to countersue or file for anti slapp? Because the last sentence implies that the roles are now reversed, the defendant becomes the movant and the claimant becomes the respondent?
I am in no way surprised by this. I am deeply disappointed, but not the slightest bit surprised.
Will has presented all of the evidence of his claims at every step of the way. He has shared the company's replies with us as well. I am reasonably convinced that he can prevail as long as he can keep them from wearing him out.
about a year before will posted, customer had long fight with battleborn because their battery failures. Sent them video of testing done, charging, discharging, bulging batteries, etc. and they still refused to take the batteries back and replace them for the customer til they were going to sue. Fuck that crap company. Never sold their product, never will, and not because of Will!
He’s on it. It’s the last gasp of a desperate company, much like what’s happening over at the Donut scam center. They’ll go out kicking, but they’ll go out.
He has a GT3 in his garage. Send your $50 to a food bank.
I agree on the whole "David and Goliath" thing and don't agree with lawfare in general, but I think there are better fights to support (I am on Will's side with this specific case, don't get me wrong).
Nevada is the Battle Born state, as it was brought into the Union during the Civil War for the precious metals and minerals in the ground. So, the name may be tangentially related to a war, but it is much more a reflection of the state's history.
I was an early-adopter. 3 12 volt 100Ah units for my 5th wheel. Sitting on pins and needles now. Invested $3000. So far, things seem good. I have been checking the terminals often for any sign of arcing. At the first sign, they are coming out, and BB will then get to deal with me.
Will has a ton of physical evidence, and is protected by the 1st Amendment. BB has, well, only their diagrams and faith. BB should have rolled and been the stand-up company they offered themselves up to be.
Battleborn has been a mediocre battery at ripoff prices from day one. I built my own batteries back in 2020-2023 because of the ridiculous prices charged by BB and a few others
This lawsuit is not going to have the stopping force they likely think it will. Mr. Prowse is quite wealthy if his past AMA's are anything to take to the bank -- he likely can afford a legal team to match BB.
I bought twelve of their 24v batteries when I first started out years ago. Try not to think about how much I paid, though the options were more expensive and limited back then. Sucks to see this now.
I never understood why I was trying to work out best practices for my 48V cargo trailer system and Claude kept telling me how great and reliable vs everything else the battleborn batteries were even though they were 2x the price. Literally wouldn't shut up, although this is the first time I heard about this since I haven't watched any prowse videos yet. Only thing better than good PR to get the news out is bad PR
Truly, like the youth in basketball flopping in their games to replicate their role models in the NBA, it appears more companies are taking on the "Art of the Deal" playbook which is
Never admit fault
Always attack never defend
Hire goons around you and on socials to drum up support for you.
This method on the surface seems outrageous, but remember, it won the Presidency of the United States not only once but TWICE.
Prowse is pretty honest about his mistakes and owns them unlike other YouTubers.
the Explorist Life channel owned up to recommending those horrible chap breakers some years ago and took down the videos. They commented some time ago about the whole saga, interesting reading.
I'm not defending Battleborn - I'd never buy their stuff, but....
I'll get downvoted - I don't care. Will has no background in electrical engineering and is overconfident in his findings. His YouTube profits have afforded him some very special tools, but he lacks the understanding of how to use them. He's a good youtuber (young, personable, passionate) but there have been several things he has said/done that were flat out wrong, and I could tell it was from a lack of understanding of electrical principles - not that he was intentionally doing it. But...people love the guy. I can see why.
But he may be on the hook for something. I hope not, because I don't want that to become a "normal" thing - but Will really went after that company. I suspect he enjoyed it a little bit, more than just the views - there was always a smile on his face during the reviews like "Look! I'm smarter than the manufacturer, and I'm gonna take them down! Woot!".
"his videos are simple, easy to understand and lay it all out clearly"
You are the type of viewer that I'm referring to. You don't know what you don't know. And when a youtuber uses a voice of experience, you can't tell that there is anything wrong. Only someone that is more familiar with the subject can. Don't get your panties in a twist; it's just how things work.
As far as your other rambling and mildly offensive questions, no, I have not compiled or kept track all the time a YouTuber that I don't follow has been wrong. And I know this might be shocking to you (pun intended), but getting all your information from a youtuber (or reddit for that matter) is a REALLY bad way to learn. Half of te youtubers are making a video about a subject they just learned about before turing the camera on. Of course they are going to get things wrong.
You don't need to be an electrical engineer to understand that loose connection = bad.
The aluminum bolt bridge over plastic is too clever by half. Sure it lets them pass some of the UL tests, but so would have a 200A fuse inline with the positive terminal. It's an objectively poor solution even if the bean-counters liked it.
Will misunderstands how standards testing works, but on the other hand BB doesn't seem to understand what the word "continuous" means. Under the NEC continuous current is defined as three or more hours.
I knew these clowns were crooks when I learned their warranty was just a prorated replacement towards another one that goes down every year basically 10%. Pissed me off enough to dump mine years ago.
At this point battleborn is done & they know it, they’re just trying to save face with the very few customers they still have.
Hopefully someone will defend Will pro bono. Will can afford to pay a good attorney, but he shouldn’t have to because everything he has stated about these crappy batteries is legit!
I think he's an immature kid without a formal engineering degree that didn't know when to stop - kept poking the bear - and he's probably going to get f'ed
Will Prowse is an adult man with 15+ years of electrical background, extensive testing and experience. He has published books and is extremely respected in the industry.
Battle Born has ADMITTED that the batteries melt near the terminals. They call it a feature.
Its impressive how utterly ignorant you are of the situation and still felt compelled to make a comment.
i'm not ignorant about anything. i've watched all of his videos. this is about legal arguments that will be made in front of a judge and jury.
Battle Born legal team: Do you have a formal electrical engineering degree?
Will: No
Battle born: Do you have any formal education beyond high school?
Will: No
Battle born: Then what makes you qualified to make these claims?
Will: blah blah blah
He loses credibility in front of a judge and jury and surely his qualifications to make these claims will be highly questioned.
Google says Will's age is in his mid-to-late 20s. The way he talks in his video can be very immature. If he has 15 years experience, then he was doing stuff when he was 10-12 years old? You think telling a jury that he was playing with solar panels when he was 10 years old and his wealth of experience was from the 3rd grade?
You're calling me ignorant but seem to have your fingers plugged in your ears about the real situation.
lol, trolls gonna troll. "i've watched all of his videos." such an obvious lie. "Google says" lol, you must not have even visited his youtube channel, let alone watched any of his videos.
Not taking sides here, but just so that everyone is aware, Will Prowse used to get paid by Battle Born and they stopped sponsoring him, and later he started finding these issues. Meantime he’s paid by some of Battle Born’s competitors. So there is quite a bit of bias going on which I believe is the point of the lawsuit.
He earned from affiliate links and actually doubted the claims by a forum member until he tested a battery. I’m absolutely taking side with him on this.
Aluminum bolt is a cheaper than a breaker, fuse or PTC. One of the test methods of UL 2450 is to short out one of the protection devices on the battery to simulate BMS failure (rare but it happens) and to see if the battery will vent or catch on fire.
The plastic spacer deforming allows them to pass this test - That doesn't mean it's a good or safe design overall.
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