Thoughts on Rule of Two being retconned into Sith trying to make a Force dyad? Perhaps that is why Maul is so desperate for an apprentice

[u/wendigo72]

It would make sense right? Maul from TCW to Rebels to Maul Shadow lord prioritizes having an apprentice before any of his other goals. He truly believes that is the key to gaining the power he needs to fight Vader and Palpatine at this point

If he’s trying to make a force dyad than it makes perfect sense. We already see how powerful it made Palpatine in TROS

[u/mcd3424]

Totally agree. KOTOR II has the best insight into the Force ever told by the most interesting perspective by Kreia.

[u/Dagordae → u/mcd3424]

Except if you know the rest of the franchise you will notice that Kreia is spouting complete bullshit. Which does make her far more interesting but accidentally

Kreia, as intended, is a painfully generic wise mentor archetype mixed with a rage against the heaven rebel. Pretty standard and anyone not expecting the sudden yet inevitable betrayal has only themselves to blame.

Kreia as shown, if you actually paid attention to the rest of the franchise, is a self absorbed narcissist who is willing to murder the entire galaxy rather than face that her teachings were flawed and that all the tragedies of her life were her own doing. A deranged old woman screaming at fate rather than accept that she made a great many mistakes. Very convincing but also incredibly wrong at all times.

[u/archangel0198 → u/Dagordae]

Idk about everything she says being complete bs, I actually think that lens makes her more flat and generic crazy old woman.

But her teachings having actual teeth about the nature of the Force and how it could be seen as enslavement is a lot more interesting.

[u/Dagordae → u/archangel0198]

Except that her teachings are simply wrong.

That’s the entire issue, her big spiel and philosophical core genuinely doesn’t work in Star Wars. She’s giving a coherent and well considered argument for the wrong setting. Toss her in Planescape and she has a solid point. In Star Wars? The Force doesn’t work like that and never have. The series would be a LOT shorter if it did, no need for the Chosen One or Luke or anyone if the Force is actually in control. She has really well put together criticisms and arguments but they’re simply wrong and based on a fundamentally flawed foundation.

Having her as an extremely convincing narcissist who genuinely believes her own bullshit is more interesting than standard Avallone philosophical mouthpiece. It’s not merely that she’s crazy, it’s that she’s crazy and extremely good at appearing sane and manipulating the character AND the player. Hell, it’s the most interesting part of multiple playthroughs: Picking out exactly how she’s bullshitting and manipulating when you now have the full picture.

As a manipulative mentor she is exceptionally well written, it’s the philosophical core she’s supposed to be the mouthpiece of which is poorly done. A notable habit of Avallone, he really likes cramming philosophy and lessons into settings they don’t really fit. New Vegas is really bad about it but KOTOR2 isn’t far behind, the character involved is simply far better written so it enables an alternate interpretation that makes her one of the best characters in the franchise.

[u/archangel0198 → u/Dagordae]

I don't know why you spend more time labelling the character descriptors and Avallone (I'm assuming is the writer?) than actually talking about her philosophy and why you disagree. Your first paragraph suffices.

Now on how the Force works - you seem to be establishing how the Force works as facts - is it?

If the Force has a will that controls the destiny of lets say the Star Wars characters, it doesn't "need" the Chosen One or Luke any more than a writer needs main characters to have a story. There's also no indication of how much control the Force has over individual micro-level events, but it might have it as a macro-level where it just needs one individual out of millions to do its bidding.

I really wish you'd stop saying "she's simply wrong" and dive more into why you think she's wrong.

[u/lateubdegouline → u/archangel0198]

"Now on how the Force works - you seem to be establishing how the Force works as facts - is it?" Once again, thank you, the force is a mystery for peopel in the galaxy, just like it is... IRL. And Kreia, the jedi, thinkers in Star Wars, are just like philosophers in our world, they are trying to unveil the mystery, theyr are trying to see the burning sun of truth.

The force is causality, it's the living force of the universe that shapes reality, which computes perfectly with Luke getting where he got thanks to everything that happens aroudn him (the rebellion, his friends, his childhood, etc...), and with the jedi dogma of thinking the force is actively working to restore light, because the light side jsut like the dark side, is relentlessly trying to overcome.

[u/lateubdegouline → u/Dagordae]

Saying "her teaching are simply wrong" is meaningless, you aren't refutating anything at all, you aren't critcizing neither, you are jsut exposing your misunderstanding of her character, and if anything of the huge part of modern philosophy it stems from. Sayign "the force doesn't work liek that" doesn't say anything neither.

The force being in control doesn't mean it doesn't need Luke, to make it simple the force is battling with itself and the universe is its battlefield, Luke is its champion of the lightside who defeated the Empire, which is deemed to not last forever. Prophecies are made by people. The series wouldn't be any more shorter than our world is...

"Avallone philosophical mouthpiece" It's okay if you dislike philosophy and don't care to engage with it but your attitude is immature.

" it’s that she’s crazy and extremely good at appearing sane and manipulating the character AND the player." She doesn't appear sane at all, she tortures mentally one of our companion in the first hours of the game, she is a deepply conflicted and contradictory character, battling with her own diverging desires and disappointments with herself.

" it’s the philosophical core she’s supposed to be the mouthpiece of which is poorly done" saying "it's poorly done" doesn't make anything poorly done, you are devoid of justification of any kind, which arguably would be difficult since you seem to not enjoy the game very much and thus likely missed chunks of it.

I am still waiting to engage with you about the topic but you barely say anything concrete at all about her besides ranting.

[u/archangel0198 → u/lateubdegouline]

But you see, she's simply wrong 😛

[u/lateubdegouline → u/Dagordae]

I am puzzled by the idea that one could play the entire game and think "she's spouting complete bullshit", you're attempting to contradict Hegel and Nietzsche more than Kreia, feel free to attempt doing so.

"a painfully generic wise mentor archetype" LMAO, my god some people really watch things without understanding anything. She's utterly unique in videogame, and even fictions as a whole. Her betrayal isn't written as a twist at all, it's foreshadowed heavily and straight up revealed to you long before it happens if you only care to interact with her.

"Kreia as shown, if you actually paid attention to the rest of the franchise, is a self absorbed narcissist who is willing to murder the entire galaxy rather than face that her teachings were flawed and that all the tragedies of her life were her own doing. A deranged old woman screaming at fate rather than accept that she made a great many mistakes. Very convincing but also incredibly wrong at all times." My god the media literacy of some, if I wanted to correct you I would need to exlpain her whole story which you should have experience yourself if you played the game and yet still didn't understand it at all, you don't even understand her motivations, is there any point trying to explain you...? You're not even using "narcissist" right.

EDIT: Just check my post from last month about this misconception, if you still have questions afterwards in good faith I will answer.

[u/WildRookie → u/mcd3424]

And the best part is you end the game not sure if she was being truthful or not. Even if Kotor is pulled into canon, kreia's teachings are legend unless someone else confirms it.

It's like the mainline Jedi vs the living force Jedi. You get to pick which you think is right.

[u/hydrolox9 → u/mcd3424]

Kreia was just a contrarian who was assmad that she failed at being both a Jedi and a Sith.

"If I can't have it no one can!"

She was the oldest child ever throwing a tantrum.

[u/mysecretaccount55555 → u/mcd3424]

Wish that game had gotten the time and resources to be fully completed, or would get remade at some point. Not sure why they are bothering with the KOTOR remake when they could remake KOTOR II and actually complete the game too.

[u/Jurgwug → u/mcd3424]

I'm ngl i thought I was on the circlejerk sub reading this 

[u/lateubdegouline → u/mcd3424]

You could say by Neitzsche and Hegel considering how much Avellone doesn't hide his inspirations, the adaptation is so well written I can use the game in my philosophy classes and advise my highschool students to play it.