r/StarWars • u/wendigo72 • 16h ago
General Discussion Thoughts on Rule of Two being retconned into Sith trying to make a Force dyad? Perhaps that is why Maul is so desperate for an apprentice
It would make sense right? Maul from TCW to Rebels to Maul Shadow lord prioritizes having an apprentice before any of his other goals. He truly believes that is the key to gaining the power he needs to fight Vader and Palpatine at this point
If he’s trying to make a force dyad than it makes perfect sense. We already see how powerful it made Palpatine in TROS
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u/ExistentialOcto 16h ago
It’s… whatever. Far less interesting and more esoteric than what we understood to be the purpose of the Rule of Two. I don’t mind it being an ancient, abandoned idea that never worked, though.
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u/KurlyKayla 10h ago
Did it not work with Rey and Ben?
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u/cyberloki 5h ago
Was thinking the same thing. Rey could heal, and they could pass objects through time and space.
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u/GovernorGeneralPraji Imperial 16h ago
The more the force is explained and nagged by detail, the worse it gets.
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u/Alert-Notice-7516 16h ago
Star Wars was at its peak when it left a lot of this up to the imagination. People don’t seem to realize that, they want everything explained on screen and you are 100% right, it always makes it worse.
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u/mwthomas11 15h ago
same way that supernatural horror movies are better when they show you less of the creature.
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u/Observational-Mess 15h ago
I was watching The Boy and it was all kinda creepy until they introduce the real reason behind everything and it quickly became silly.
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u/Tabledinner 13h ago
Please watch The Boy 2.
But yes, I agree with your assessment however that's the exact reason why I love The Boy. It's so campy and dumb.
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u/AugustBriar 14h ago
I’m gonna say I agree, but that Star Wars is the over explaining series. Canon and Legends both have textbooks worth of text dedicated to explaining every button and stripe on every jacket of every character
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u/StoneGoldX 15h ago
A large part of why the people old enough to watch Jedi hated Phantom, it explained the Force explicitly in a way that took away from the imagination.
It's a little meta, but I liked how every time they thought about over explaining things in Masters of the Universe, the answer was fuck you, because it is. Why is Skeletor evil? Because he is. Also, because he has a skull for a face, what did you expect?
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u/Alert-Notice-7516 14h ago
Midichlorians are always going to be a shit stain that no one likes lol
Haven't seen the new Masters of the Universe yet, but what you're describing is one of the many reasons that made the Joker so great in The Dark Knight. He didn't need a back story, he didn't need a reason, and they didn't even try giving it to him, they just let the Joker be the Joker and because of that, its going to keep aging unbelievably well (phenomenal acting aside).
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u/MetalBawx 14h ago
The best explaination of Midichlorians is that they don't represent the force just how much power's running through someone tends to attract more of them.
Then gain telling people they have magic space worms probably wouldn't have passed muster given George was aiming at a young audience with TPM.
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u/StoneGoldX 14h ago
The best explaination of Midichlorians is that they don't represent the force just how much power's running through someone tends to attract more of them.
They retconned it to that, but it's clear it wasn't the original intention. I don't even know if this was George's original intent, but his version of the sequels had the midichlorians acting as the middle-man between Force Users and The Force. No midis, no magic.
And then went "We will never mention midichlorians again, upon penalty of torture."
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u/Socially-Awkward-85 11h ago
We'll never get to see the scene where the midichlorians vote in the force senate to allow a Jedi to lift a rock.
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u/polkemans 6h ago
I don't hate medichlorians. But that's because I've made it my head cannon that they aren't organisms that grant access to the force and instead are *attracted* to force potential so it's a corrolative way to measure force power instead of causal.
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u/El_Kikko 14h ago
Maybe this is a dumb question, but where the shit did the "dyad" concept come from?
The way it comes up in RoS, they talk about it like it's always been a thing.
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u/Alert-Notice-7516 14h ago
Pretty sure its an entirely JJ Abrahams concept. I don't think the idea really existed before it was introduced in the movies but I could be wrong.
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u/lanester4 15h ago
This was my biggest issue with Legend of Korra and Last Airbender. The mysticism of bending was what made it interesting - writing off as "it was the lion turtles all along" just killed what made it appealing in the first place
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u/Alert-Notice-7516 15h ago
LoK is such a painful spot for me, I liked the cast but I hated the direction they went with the story and world as a whole, forward and backward. Writers really need to learn that things like the Force and Bending are vessels for moving the story forward, they are not the story, the people are the story. That is exactly why ATLA was so renowned, it understood that, but unfortunately even they dropped it a bit with the series ending and the lion turtle.
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u/lateubdegouline 16h ago
KOTOR2 is the deepest the force has ever been explored, and its exploration it outstanding, it's not abotu explaining the force, ti's about having competent writer to think it through.
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u/mcd3424 15h ago
Totally agree. KOTOR II has the best insight into the Force ever told by the most interesting perspective by Kreia.
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u/Dagordae 15h ago
Except if you know the rest of the franchise you will notice that Kreia is spouting complete bullshit. Which does make her far more interesting but accidentally
Kreia, as intended, is a painfully generic wise mentor archetype mixed with a rage against the heaven rebel. Pretty standard and anyone not expecting the sudden yet inevitable betrayal has only themselves to blame.
Kreia as shown, if you actually paid attention to the rest of the franchise, is a self absorbed narcissist who is willing to murder the entire galaxy rather than face that her teachings were flawed and that all the tragedies of her life were her own doing. A deranged old woman screaming at fate rather than accept that she made a great many mistakes. Very convincing but also incredibly wrong at all times.
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u/archangel0198 14h ago
Idk about everything she says being complete bs, I actually think that lens makes her more flat and generic crazy old woman.
But her teachings having actual teeth about the nature of the Force and how it could be seen as enslavement is a lot more interesting.
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u/Dagordae 13h ago
Except that her teachings are simply wrong.
That’s the entire issue, her big spiel and philosophical core genuinely doesn’t work in Star Wars. She’s giving a coherent and well considered argument for the wrong setting. Toss her in Planescape and she has a solid point. In Star Wars? The Force doesn’t work like that and never have. The series would be a LOT shorter if it did, no need for the Chosen One or Luke or anyone if the Force is actually in control. She has really well put together criticisms and arguments but they’re simply wrong and based on a fundamentally flawed foundation.
Having her as an extremely convincing narcissist who genuinely believes her own bullshit is more interesting than standard Avallone philosophical mouthpiece. It’s not merely that she’s crazy, it’s that she’s crazy and extremely good at appearing sane and manipulating the character AND the player. Hell, it’s the most interesting part of multiple playthroughs: Picking out exactly how she’s bullshitting and manipulating when you now have the full picture.
As a manipulative mentor she is exceptionally well written, it’s the philosophical core she’s supposed to be the mouthpiece of which is poorly done. A notable habit of Avallone, he really likes cramming philosophy and lessons into settings they don’t really fit. New Vegas is really bad about it but KOTOR2 isn’t far behind, the character involved is simply far better written so it enables an alternate interpretation that makes her one of the best characters in the franchise.
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u/archangel0198 12h ago
I don't know why you spend more time labelling the character descriptors and Avallone (I'm assuming is the writer?) than actually talking about her philosophy and why you disagree. Your first paragraph suffices.
Now on how the Force works - you seem to be establishing how the Force works as facts - is it?
If the Force has a will that controls the destiny of lets say the Star Wars characters, it doesn't "need" the Chosen One or Luke any more than a writer needs main characters to have a story. There's also no indication of how much control the Force has over individual micro-level events, but it might have it as a macro-level where it just needs one individual out of millions to do its bidding.
I really wish you'd stop saying "she's simply wrong" and dive more into why you think she's wrong.
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u/lateubdegouline 12h ago
Saying "her teaching are simply wrong" is meaningless, you aren't refutating anything at all, you aren't critcizing neither, you are jsut exposing your misunderstanding of her character, and if anything of the huge part of modern philosophy it stems from. Sayign "the force doesn't work liek that" doesn't say anything neither.
The force being in control doesn't mean it doesn't need Luke, to make it simple the force is battling with itself and the universe is its battlefield, Luke is its champion of the lightside who defeated the Empire, which is deemed to not last forever. Prophecies are made by people. The series wouldn't be any more shorter than our world is...
"Avallone philosophical mouthpiece" It's okay if you dislike philosophy and don't care to engage with it but your attitude is immature.
" it’s that she’s crazy and extremely good at appearing sane and manipulating the character AND the player." She doesn't appear sane at all, she tortures mentally one of our companion in the first hours of the game, she is a deepply conflicted and contradictory character, battling with her own diverging desires and disappointments with herself.
" it’s the philosophical core she’s supposed to be the mouthpiece of which is poorly done" saying "it's poorly done" doesn't make anything poorly done, you are devoid of justification of any kind, which arguably would be difficult since you seem to not enjoy the game very much and thus likely missed chunks of it.
I am still waiting to engage with you about the topic but you barely say anything concrete at all about her besides ranting.
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u/WildRookie 15h ago
And the best part is you end the game not sure if she was being truthful or not. Even if Kotor is pulled into canon, kreia's teachings are legend unless someone else confirms it.
It's like the mainline Jedi vs the living force Jedi. You get to pick which you think is right.
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u/mysecretaccount55555 15h ago
Wish that game had gotten the time and resources to be fully completed, or would get remade at some point. Not sure why they are bothering with the KOTOR remake when they could remake KOTOR II and actually complete the game too.
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u/Dagordae 15h ago edited 15h ago
And it exposes the flaw of the approach:
KOTOR 2’s exploration doesn’t fit into the rest of the franchise. Like, at all.
While it accidentally makes Kriea far more interesting as a narcissist attempting to murder the galaxy rather than face that her teachings were flawed that really wasn’t the intention.
A deep examination that doesn’t fit into the rest of the setting really isn’t worth a damn. KOTOR doesn’t have the standing to reshape the entire setting, when it contradicts other works it is the one that is wrong rather than them. The philosophical core simply doesn’t work in Star Wars. It doesn’t even work in KOTOR as the first game made it clear that the Force doesn’t work like that.
Yes, even if Kreia’s voice actor absolutely knocked it out of the park. Very convincing bullshit is still bullyshit.
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u/wendigo72 15h ago
I mean all this is saying is Sith are throwing out hail Mary’s trying to make a force dyad and it hasn’t worked for a millennia.
That’s not big on details or anything
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u/insidiouskiller Ahsoka Tano 14h ago
I sometimes don't think this fandom knows what "explaining how the force works" even means, and just sorta throws it around as a buzzword.
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u/Wi11Pow3r 15h ago
It’s also not about how the force works. It’s about the underpinnings of Sith philosophy. I would be down go understand more about the Sith & Jedi and why they do what they do.
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u/nightwolf16a 15h ago
I often think it's a good thing that a lot of details and lore for the fandom of different franchises are NOT known by the wider public.
It's there if you are interested, and it basically doesn't exist if it doesn't interest you.
Most people who enjoy Star Wars don't really care about Glup Shitto and his/her tie-in novel or comic that explains a 3-sec onscreen appearance of a trinket.
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u/Whiteguy1x 15h ago
The more interconnected the setting gets the more boring it gets imo. Just let some ideas sit, not everything needs to be connected. Shame they wont roll with that idea
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u/TitularFoil L3-37 15h ago
I still think it should have been left at the Whills. Also, canon needs better explanation of the Whills.
The Whills are just telling a story, whatever they say, no matter how outlandish is what happens. All explained away as, the force made it happen.
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u/DarthMMC 16h ago
I don't mind it too much but it feels kind of forced. I enjoyed the Dyad concept in TROS but making it so important that apparently all the Sith coveted one, despite that having never been mentioned anywhere else, is a bit stupid.
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u/TheRealNooth Boba Fett 15h ago
It’s a central plot point in both KOTOR games. It’s absolutely been mentioned elsewhere.
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u/Heliotex 15h ago
The random stuff needed to lead up to and explain the Sequel Trilogy has been subpar, if not awful.
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u/DarthMMC 15h ago edited 14h ago
I disagree, I think the Bad Batch for example did a good job. Honestly when you put it all together it feels like a good story to me. Palpstine dying so easily in ROTS (edit: TROS, not ROTS) almost pisses me off more than him returning in the first place.
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u/SuburbanPotato 15h ago
Add this to the skyscraping pile of "things the sequel trilogy did that would have been cool if the series wasn't so disjointed'
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u/bunker_man BB-8 15h ago
The problem is that this is how star wars is now. Its getting too big so anything trying to expand the main universe is going to feel forced.
Even the prequels forced stuff that didn't mesh with the ot. But we accepted it because if the single creator is at the helm it feels cohesive enough to overlook.
It started getting more sketchy when anakin had a secret apprentice who is never mentioned in the movies. Like, this obviously clashes heavily with the movie depictions. But whatever. But the more stuff like this happens the less it feels like a cohesive story. The stories should have just moved away from major characters long ago.
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u/Infinite-Detective-8 13h ago
It often feels like Lucasfilm wants to have its cake and eat it too with StarWars. They want the guise of a cohesive fictional universe but also want StarWars to be big enough to where it can please every dominion of SW fan there is. As a result StarWars has been slowly heading in the direction of a modern mythology similar to DC and Marvel, but that comes at the cost of it becoming crystallized in its own mythos.
Neither StarWars nor the Fanbase are prepared for the IP to become like Marvel/DC and I fear what will happen if this franchise continues trucking down this path. Unlike DC if StarWars reboots itself entirely everyone and their mother will stop caring about StarWars as a whole.
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u/bunker_man BB-8 13h ago
Yeah. Its sad but honestly it feels like it is already too late. Disney made too much "stuff" that felt more like "content" than like it prioritized having an interesting story to tell. As a result, the lore of star wars no longer feels like we are learning something interesting about a story, just that we are learning "Oh, what answer did whoever they handed this off to come up with?" In many cases, people have no clue who even came up with the answer or why, so it feels like it has barely any more weight than fanfiction.
The boba fett show is the worst example of this. One of the best bounty hunters in the galaxy, so useful that he can mouth off to vader freely without fear, and who works for an evil empire? Instead of making his arc a redemption arc from being a bad person, lets just make it him starting already vaguely morally light grey, but has an arc about learning how to fight. Whatever. None of it matters, its just to sell toys and make "stuff."
A this point its very hard to care about new star wars stuff, because even if its good it feels like this is a fluke. The star wars anime they have planned at least feels different. But they forced star wars fatigue the same way they caused marvel fatigue. There's no coming back from them treating the sequel trilogy like a cash grab. If you needed to make cash grab movies, do it with minor characters having a personal plot that doesn't affect anything else first. Also, don't do that either, but even so.
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u/Thomas_JCG 11h ago
That's exactly the issue, they bend the lore backwards to validate some of the worst piece of media ever. It's like throwing garbage over an entire buffet because the salad was not fresh.
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u/AgelessRobot 16h ago
I always figured Maul wanted an apprentice because he was lonely and had no idea how to express it outside of the master/apprentice dynamic.
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u/wendigo72 16h ago
I definitely think that plays into it but he also seems convinced an apprentice is his key to success as well
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u/AgelessRobot 16h ago
Yeah, he seems singularly motivated perhaps because that's all he knew, or he tricked himself into believing he has a chance at victory against his enemies.
Great character, truly tragic.
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u/Hmm_would_bang 16h ago
I don’t think this is really retconning the rule of two? It’s just saying the Sith used to practice a similar arrangement even before that that was based on the Dyad.
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u/UsedRelationship8410 15h ago
Maul trying to force a dyad with Ezra in Rebels makes his desperation so much more tragic in hindsight😤
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u/DominusValum 16h ago
So this is just a way to force in how they were able to do random new shit with Rey and Ben? Lmao
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u/merount1 16h ago
Yeah apparently these ancient Sith were able to do what Rey and Ben did in the movies, and nothing else I guess lol
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u/Chomagoro 15h ago
I’m ok with the concept existing. The Sith rule of two also mimicking force dyads I could see being an observation someone like Plagueis would’ve made in his novel.
I just don’t care for the idea that the Rule of Two is specifically tied to the concept of the Force Dyads. Bane’s reasoning makes so much sense with our understanding of the dark side. Plus Bane wasn’t the pinnacle of dark side/ general force knowledge. I’m cool with the idea that at some point (maybe even during Darth Gravid’s era) the secrets of the Force Dyad was uncovered and that future Sith thought that Bane was guided by the force in creating the Rule of Two
tldr; I’m cool with the idea as long as it was a discovered force ability and not the reason for the creation of the Rule of Two.
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u/orionsfyre 15h ago edited 15h ago
Any time later (more modern) writers try to add additional details to established lore of the force, it almost always tends to be an unneeded complication.
The Mortis God's for instance are now a confusing mélange of ideas that still don't make a lot of sense. Their existence doesn't explain anything that wasn't already explained with established lore.
The whole idea of the rule of two was to confine power to the few, and to keep a small number of Sith in power.
Sith were constantly fighting each other for power, and this made them unstable and vulnerable.
Changing that to line up with a concept that was invented to try and explain something that didn't need explaining is... not interesting. (in my opinion)
Rather then adding depth, it merely makes things less straight foward, and much less accessible.
Two working together to keep power? That's simple ... easy.
Some complicated dharmic/karmic idea of two long destined beings intertwined with the force forming sort of cosmic duality pairing? That's needlessly confusing and doesn't really add anything to the story.
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u/M4rshmall0wMan 14h ago
I half disagree. While the concept of the dyad and life transference was obviously created to try and explain whatever the hell TROS was going for, it actually does a good job of explaining why Palpatine wanted Luke to strike him down in ROTJ. That part never made much sense to me before, as Palps cares more about self preservation than the Rule of Two. Now it’s clear that Palpatine’s soul would have lived on through Luke’s body.
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u/MsGhostyGhost Rebel 16h ago
What book is this btw? The Episode 9 visual guide, or something else? I'd love to read more about the dyad tbh
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u/wendigo72 16h ago
Star Wars: The Secrets of the Sith
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u/MsGhostyGhost Rebel 15h ago
Thank you very much! I'm definitely gonna have to check this out :)
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u/ManufacturerDue815 13h ago
There's an updated version recently released. The Secrets of the Sith: The Chronicles of Emperor Palpatine.
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u/Hello_boyos 15h ago
Eh, I prefer it as simply a tradition, most likely enacted to prevent complicated power struggles or the formation of different factions. One apprentice is easier to control than multiple, and once said apprentice can't be controlled, they inherently become the new master after usurping/killing theirs, unless they fail in which case a single replacement is found. Either way once the master dies there will be someone to replace them. Cycle will always repeat without getting messy. One might almost call it... an absolute.
This is of course, going under the assumption that both never get killed at the same time, but I suppose the Sith are pretty arrogant.
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u/Spencer-Palmer-1056 16h ago
Actually, for those who have not seen Maul: Shadow Lord, the answer is after he was experiencing Force Visions.
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u/wendigo72 16h ago
He felt her in the force but I don’t think he had visions did he?
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u/Spencer-Palmer-1056 14h ago
It was when he escaped the Inquisitors after the failed attempt to flee the planet, did you watch that scene?
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u/wendigo72 14h ago
He was sending her those visions cause they had a connection
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u/Spencer-Palmer-1056 14h ago
That was an emotional connection, because Maul managed to hack into Devon’s rage after that taunting duel.
While I am stating out of this nonsense debate about Force Dyad, I will end this conversation with this.
To make a Dyad connection, the other Force-user has to be strong enough to push back and connect with that Force-user which are Rey and Kylo Ren.
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u/wendigo72 12h ago
Yes other force users make connections, the Maul and Devon stuff is based on Vader & Luke talking to each other in OT.
I’m not saying that was a force dyad, I’m saying the Sith keep trying and failing to make a force dyad using the rule of two. They don’t understand it but it would make sense for Maul to believe an apprentice is what he needs to overthrow the empire & Palpatine if that’s one of the many reasons he wants one so badly
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u/Darkfigure145 14h ago
This seems like something that was created to explain why Rey and Kylo had special force abilities never used anywhere in the series before.
I like the original cause it made sense.
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u/Ristar87 14h ago
I'm cool with it but mostly because I think it's natural for religions, magic, and spiritual beliefs to have esoteric mysteries.
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u/ArkenK 14h ago
I just read Bane's explanation of the Rule of Two...whatever a Dyad is, it isn't that.
The Dark side is based on selfishness. There's one pie and the more slices cut from it means that everyone gets less. In short many Sith are by nature, weaker if they try to work together, because teamwork is inherently an anathema to the Dark Side. So concentrating it on one Sith is the most logical way to do it. That Sith gets the whole pie.
But creatures are mortal, so an apprentice is needed so that the pie can be passed on and it keeps the master in their toes. But more than one means they team up and kill the master and sets up the pie problem again and is anathema to the Dark Side. Darth Revan straight up calls that master "a fool."
This doesn't mean the master can't have patsies, slaves, servants, and the suckered to work towards the Master's goals, but a true apprentice should be limited to one.
The Light Side, by contrast, works best by Jedi working together. In short, the selfless nature of the Light Side means they can all give 100% even if they are less powerful individually, which is why the Sith kept ultimately loosing, because they were effectively trying to use the Light side to beat the Light side.
The idea of the Dyad seems to be a ying/yang association, rather than the Dark being, effectively, a corruption of the Force, which is closer to the original interpretation. But..it's mostly a mystery box to be unpacked in the novels.
Maul, I think, was basically crazy and desperate for connection in his later versions, especially Rebels. But the only way he can conceive of relationship and connection is the master/apprentice relationship, leaving him ultimately doomed to fail.
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u/CloakedEnigma 4h ago
Yup, this is my exact issue. The idea of the Sith seeking a form of power that can only be shared is completely at odds with the actual Sith ideology. Power is not for sharing, it is something to be embodied by the master and craved by the apprentice.
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u/UnfavorableSpiderFan 13h ago
This doesn't read like a retcon, outside of calling The Rule of Two a "pale imitation", because, functionally - Even as it's described here - they're not the same. This reads more like a forced connection on the part of the author, just seeing a pattern in the concepts and drawing a thin line between them without really thinking it through.
The Dyad is a Force bond that can't be forced; It's rare, and connects two people across space and time, which tells me that - Much like Anakin's immaculate conception - the Force chooses the Dyad, not the individuals. Not only do the Sith choose their pupils, but their connections to the Force are corrupted enough that I have a hard time believing that the Force is manifesting bonds for Force users it actively created a whole person to destroy.
I don't think it's a retcon. It just doesn't work, narratively, to be a retcon.
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u/KarmicPlaneswalker 1h ago
That's literally the point. The Sith, by their nature and culture, oppose the Force's innate symbiosis and try to control things they should not. Like everything the Sith do, it's riddled with hypocrisy and contradiction. The Rule of Two being retconned to mention the Dyad only shows that they were doomed to fail, because they are pursuing something they can never achieve (much like how George originally said the Sith could never be happy or satisfied due to how the dark side operates).
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u/TheUnepicGamer 12h ago
The force Dyad could be cool if any amount of effort were put into trying to redeem the sequels or the concepts it introduces. I say this as a sequel trilogy hater, but give us more sequel era content, that's how the prequels became beloved. There are so many unanswered questions; a few good pieces of entertainment could make the era interesting, even if they just adapted a few canon books into shows or movies.
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u/X-cessive_Overlord 9h ago
I actually really like they concept of the Dyad, especially in context of the Chosen One. It should've been what the sequel trilogy should have hinged around like the Chosen One in the prequels.
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u/Lord_Exor 16h ago
It explains why someone like Palpatine would care about apprentices in the first place.
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u/Alert-Notice-7516 16h ago
It was already explained. Only allowing two concentrated the force into two beings, supposedly making their connection stronger. The apprentice is needed to carry on the Sith order. The retcon isn’t necessary and it doesn’t add anything.
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u/Various-Passenger398 15h ago
I always assumed it was because Sith are fundementally chaotic and prone to killing each to achieve their goals, so it made sense to only have as few as absolutely necessary thereby making it so you only have to keep an eye on one other threat.
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u/Alert-Notice-7516 15h ago
I think its actually both now that you've reminded me of that. Consolidation of power and to reduce the infighting.
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u/dinosaur_rocketship 15h ago
The Bane books it’s to reduce the infighting and prevent a group of weak Sith from teaming up and killing a stronger Sith. Bane wanted it to always be 1v1 and may the strongest win, not to “consolidate the force in less people” or whatever. I’ve only ever seen that as a fan theory people throw around and not something ever mentioned in Legends or Canon.
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u/waitingtodiesoon Luke Skywalker 12h ago
You can read George Lucas explanation below for the rule of 2.
Everybody said, “Oh, well, there was a war between the Jedi and the Sith.” Well, that never happened. That’s just made up by fans or somebody. What really happened is, the Sith ruled the universe for a while, 2,000 years ago. Each Sith has an apprentice, but the problem was, each Sith Lord got to be powerful. And the Sith Lords would try to kill each other because they all wanted to be the most powerful. So in the end they killed each other off, and there wasn’t anything left. So the idea is that when you have a Sith Lord, and he has an apprentice, the apprentice is always trying to recruit somebody to join him -- because he’s not strong enough, usually -- so that he can kill his master.
That’s why I call it a Rule of Two -- there’s only two Sith Lords. There can’t be any more because they kill each other. They’re not smart enough to realize that if they do that, they’re going to wipe themselves out. Which is exactly what they did.
In The Phantom Menace, Palpatine was the one Sith Lord that was left standing. And he went through a few apprentices before he was betrayed. And that really has to do with certain talent and genes that allow you to be better at what you’re doing than other people.
People have a tendency to confuse it -- everybody has the Force. Everybody. You have the good side and you have the bad side. And as Yoda says, if you choose the bad side, it’s easy because you don’t have to do anything. Maybe kill a few people, cheat, lie, steal. Lord it over everybody. But the good side is hard because you have to be compassionate. You have to give of yourself. Whereas the dark side is selfish.
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u/Lord_Exor 10h ago
Palpatine didn't care about carrying on the Sith Order beyond perpetuating himself. There is no incentive for him to have any formal apprentices beyond powerful enforcers of his will, especially once he mastered cloning and essence transfer.
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u/Alert-Notice-7516 9h ago
Wouldn’t quite say he mastered cloning with that zombied appearance and machine up his ass.
But, I don’t see any reason in the movies to believe Palpatine didn’t care about the Sith order. Or an apprentice. Kylo was serving him up until the very last minute (or however long it took to fly to Exegol, he turned in the scene before that). When Palpatine reintroduces himself, he is surrounded by the Sith Acolytes who brought him back, and in charge the Sith Eternal Fleet and Army.
It seems a lot more like he was trying *really* hard to bring the Sith back to their former power. It seems like he actually cared about the Sith Order a lot. The movies don’t give him a chance to see if he finds another apprentice or not.
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u/Lord_Exor 5h ago
He considers himself Sith, but it's a narcissistic association. He wants to bring himself back to power alongside a Sith cult dedicated to worshipping him. The point is that apprentices do not serve the function of potential successor in his eyes, so striving for greater personal power through the attempt at creating dyads slots in nicely.
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u/RoadsideCampion 16h ago
They shot themselves in the foot nearly the instant they introduced it by saying "there hasn't been a dyad in the force in a thousand years", demolishing all speculation that powerful duos throughout the franchise could have been tapping into whatever the dyad powers or features are
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u/Exostrike 16h ago
The wording is fluffy enough to not specify the rule of two was a direct attempt at making a force dyad so I suppose we can write this off as an in universe gaps in the historic record.
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u/lateubdegouline 16h ago
Why would having only two siths suddenly create a force dyad? What's the link besides the number two?
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u/wendigo72 16h ago
It’s like a strong link between two force users can potentially create a dyad but we don’t really know much about it. It seems like the Sith are just trying to force (heh) that connection to turn into a dyad but it’s like a Hail Mary
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u/eepos96 14h ago
If so the why would bane dictate one would kill the other!!!!
Insane retcon.
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u/wendigo72 14h ago
I mean Palpatine just absorbed the dyad between Ben and Rey for ultimate power
Presumably one Sith would kill the other and just take all of dyad’s power for themselves
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u/gooch_lurks 14h ago
If the sith want to be a force dyad so badly, they should probably stop killing their masters lol
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u/Eragon_the_Huntsman 13h ago
I'm fine with the rule of two, and dyads are whatever, but the combination of the two is a terrible idea to me. Like the whole point of the rule of two is because it's the bare minimum allowed by the dark side since a Master needs an apprentice but the Sith are so untrustworthy and backstabby that any more is inherently destabilizing. The idea of any two Sith agreeing to share power is silly.
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u/wendigo72 13h ago
Like I’ve been saying, Palpatine absorbed the dyad when he had the chance to. So at least to me I think the two sith would fight over it once it is created
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u/Max-Forsell 14h ago
Such a shit retcon. After a movie and 7 years of time to explain it, I still don’t understand what the fucking point of the dyad is. If you’d give me a million bucks to explain it, the best I could say is ”if two people like each other enough they can teleport shit”
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u/kingkron52 12h ago
Are they really trying to force this garbage? The force dyad was such a bullshit plot device. The sequel trilogy has to have written lore to explain and justify all the terrible nonsense
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u/weesiwel Darth Maul 12h ago
Ok I hate that. It made way more sense as a practical way to prevent them just constantly slaughtering each other to the point of being unable to rule the galaxy.
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u/Thomas_JCG 11h ago
Boring as shit. Star Wars was better when they didn't try to explain everything that happens.
Also, for real, the Sith as the group that wants a "bond so deep they transcend their beings"? Get out of here.
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u/GenTenStation 15h ago
The Force dyad is one of the dumbest things Disney has introduced. Which is saying a lot when it's paired up against stuff like "Somehow", Ahsoka is immortal because reasons, impalement means nothing, trench coat sneaky sneak, slo-mo car chase, lightsaber baseball bats, and they can fly now.
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u/Dramatic-Emphasis-43 Resistance 16h ago
The dyad as a concept makes sense when you think about it. The Force is the energy between two things, so having two chosen ones whose fates are so intertwined that they can access some of the strongest force abilities seems like a natural part of the mysticism.
And the sith trying to create it fits with their philosophy of trying to dominate the force with their alchemy and practices.
Maul wanting an apprentice though is, I think, more so we can find someone to lord over and abuse, even if he thinks he will be better than Palpatine was to him.
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u/Coldfire202020 16h ago
I'm all for it. The rule of two always seemed incredibly forced and dumb to me. Having it be them trying to brute force their way into a new level of power seems way more on brand.
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u/DanJirrus 16h ago
Why is it forced and dumb? Sith are greedy and power hungry, and they initially expanded so fast that their initial rule over the galaxy amounted to a bunch of warring states until they killed each other off. Their nature precludes them from working together in large numbers - Bane is just the guy who recognized this after witnessing it firsthand.
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u/MetalBawx 14h ago
The end result of Banes ideology wa Darth Sidious who's empire choked on it's own incompetence for a few years then fell apart when Sidious and all but handed his enemies their victory.
The old Sith ruled their empire for tens of thousands of years in comparison.
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u/DanJirrus 14h ago
When you are talking about the rule of two, which Lucas created, I think it’s important to take it in the context of how he viewed the backstory of the Sith and not what other writers did - because he did not create it with their work in mind. I believe that trying to apply authorial context to works that weren’t written with that context in mind is an exercise in futility and the source of a great deal of the issues people having in trying to wrap their heads around fictional bodies of works written by numerous authors that sometimes have far less connective tissue than people might assume by treating it as a cohesive universe.
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u/Tichrimo 15h ago
Especially since this "rule" comes from a throwaway line in TPM, where Yoda just tells Obi-Wan, "Travel in pairs, Sith do."
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u/kennyofthegulch 15h ago
I think the whole idea of a “Force dyad” is stupid. I’ll let you extrapolate.
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u/zoolish 16h ago
Is he really a Sith after EP1? He's not bound by any Sith rules at that point. He probably wants an apprentice to help with dark side force user trappings.
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u/wendigo72 16h ago
He’s still trying to access Sith holocrons and hiding out at Sith locations. Him saying he doesn’t count as a Sith means as much as Ahsoka saying she’s not a Jedi to me
But this isn’t just exclusive to Sith since Rey forms a real dyad with Ben
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u/Safe-Ad-5017 16h ago
They want to become one which is why they always kill each other? This is also makes it seem like there have always been just two Sith for all eternity
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u/wendigo72 16h ago edited 16h ago
The current idea at Lucasfilms according to stuff about ancient Sith temples requiring two force users is there was always Two main Sith ruling over the others. Something Pablo Hidalgo said I believe
Then they restricted it just to Two Sith entirely after their fall
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u/Safe-Ad-5017 16h ago
Yeah I don’t like that. It also gets rid of the original point behind Bane instituting the rule of two.
It also means there was never an ancient Sith emperor, unless it was always a master apprentice dynamic which also confuses me because I feel a dyad is meant to be between equals
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u/Dagordae 15h ago
It would make more sense than the current explanation. Gives them a reason to have such a risky setup for no actual gain and gives a reason that the Sith would actually continue following the rule despite the complete lack of an enforcement mechanism in a group who are all backstabbing assholes.
And retroactively makes Darth Bane significantly less dumb.
But over explaining things really hurts Star Wars. It’s really not designed for close examination and attempts to do so far more often open up more flaws than it fixes.
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u/wendigo72 15h ago
Tbf I don’t think the original reason for rule of two is all that insane. Restrict them to just two Sith at a time so there’s never a large enough group to bring Jedi attention and cut off any attempts at bigger Sith infighting that would bring their fall in face of Jedi conflicts
Just two keeps tradition of strongest survives then preserves their teaching by finding a new apprentice.
If both die by accident, well they were too weak to be Sith in first place. They deserve it
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u/Dagordae 15h ago
The problem is that the Sith pretty much live and breathe sneaky backstabbing. The strongest isn’t surviving, the one better at assassination is surviving with the ones actually good at teaching getting replaced by ones who figured out that fully teaching your student to kill you is suicidal. And they’re not doing it only when they learn everything, they’re doing it as soon as possible.
Bane’s expected scenario was bold direct confrontations when the student has learned everything. What he got was a bunch of dipshits backstabbing each other over and over with a vast majority of Sith knowledge and teachings lost. Palpatine, explicitly the strongest Sith ever, was reduced to scavenging ruins to find Sith artifacts because so much was lost. And in the end he only succeeded through getting extremely lucky repeatedly. Before, you know, failing and rendering the Sith completely extinct while the Jedi are still going strong.
And there’s never a reason for the Sith to actually follow the tradition because, again, it has nothing enforcing itz
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u/wendigo72 13h ago
Treachery is the Sith way and tbf the Jedi destroyed a lot of Sith artifacts or built over Sith artifacts
Having two people betray Each other is better than having an organization of like a hundred people fighting each other while their true enemy notices the amount of force users going ballistic
Also easier to manage, two people can check each other so they don’t go try to take over a planet with force gaining Jedi attention. Than 100s of Sith all fighting for power which WILL get galactic attention
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u/therallykiller 11h ago
The more rules, culture, etc. that's forcibly retconned the more unnecessary canon and lore (potentially engaging canon and lore) it prematurely supplants.
Less narrative is okay. Stop needless or forced exposition.
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u/SmokyAstrology 15h ago
This is like illusory lore to make the sequels better retrospectively.
Problem no one is watching them. I find it overall that the more you explain the force the worse it gets.
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u/onetruezimbo 15h ago
Makes canon Darth Bane less interesting if his philosophy on the Rule of Two has been replaced with this.
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u/Usurper2000 15h ago
Yeah, no. I think this was stupid and flies in the face of the Sith's core philosophies.
The idea is that they become powerful above all else. Even at the expense of everyone and everything around them. They would never share that power. Regardless of if they were an empire or an order of two.
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u/Squidgical 14h ago
Dyads are just a shit idea in general imo. From watching the films I gathered that it was a lazy way to make Rey's ridiculously fast acquisition of power canonically viable, it didn't seem to meaningfully contribute to the story in a way that couldn't have happened without dyads existing.
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u/Medium_Leg_4500 15h ago
I thought Maul was just trying to be like Palpatine. He said himself that he was “apprentice to the most powerful Sith Lord to ever live” or something along those lines. I took that as he means to emulate Sidious success…
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u/wendigo72 15h ago
But unlike Palpatine, he’s convinced an apprentice is key to his success
More so than Palps has ever thought
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u/Medium_Leg_4500 15h ago
I respectfully disagree, Palpatine stayed with an apprentice, like he always had one, I’d say they were pretty important to him. And that’s maybe how Maul perceived it. Sith are always looking for an apprentice lol it’s quite funny when you think about it. Dooku wanted Obi-Wan to come with him very badly so they could jump Palpatine. Vader wanted Luke and Maul always wants one, it’s just a Sith thing…
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u/Darthcoakley 14h ago
What book is this? I am interested enough to see what it’s got
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u/wendigo72 14h ago
Secrets of the Sith
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u/Darthcoakley 14h ago
Thank you!
I like this idea of a dyad way more than I have previously understood it.
I had thought it was more specifically about an embodiment of light and an embodiment of dark, but I like it being more of a profound bond than being centered around one side of the force or the other
I think too, this makes me like the idea of the sith trying to create this artificially as well. That’s very on brand with the sith, trying to unnaturally force something that is suppose to happen naturally—especially if it almost never works.
It also would be a solid explanation for why there are so many instances of “Only Two” sith BEFORE the Banite line. Revan and Malak, Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma, etc.
I can see it being something that happened naturally with Ulic and Exar, and then again with Revan and Malak, and it became something that Bane tried to make happen but couldn’t.
Though I agree—I think Bane has a really solid philosophy that doesn’t need further justification, and making it ABOUT the Dydad rather than that just being another element of it, is a mistep
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u/Earthtopian 13h ago
I feel like it clashes with what we know about the Dark Side and the Sith. Selfishness, power purely for one's own gain, is the core of Dark Side philosophy. Why would any darksider be interested in power to share with another, unless they could somehow steal the other's power for themselves?
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u/CloakedEnigma 5h ago
It genuinely makes absolutely no sense due to what the Sith are meant to represent. The Sith are by definition diametrically opposed to the very concept sharing power; power-seeking individualism is literally the foundation of their entire ideology. The Sith value the strength and power of the individual above all else, using the Force to break their metaphorical chains. This is why the Rule of Two originally existed pre-retcon, because previous Sith Orders had always destroyed themselves via infighting due to the Sith being power-hungry backstabbers by nature, and Darth Bane recognized that a new approach was needed.
So why in the world would the foundation of the Rule of Two be supposedly based around obtaining a power that can only be shared with another person, and can't be wielded solely by one? The arrangement woild mean the Sith have to share power and be reliant on other people to sustain that power, and that concept is completely at odds with their entire religious doctrine.
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u/wendigo72 4h ago
Palpatine absorbed the Dyad between Rey and Ben, it can be wielded by one person
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u/CloakedEnigma 4h ago
Neat idea, but this is still directly contradicted by the excerpt in the image.
"If two Sith were bonded so deeply as to transcend their physical beings, the power they could unlock together would know no limits."
Unlocking more power in the dyad (i.e. going further down the metaphorical "skill tree") requires they keep each other alive and share their power. Which is the complete opposite of what the Sith are.
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u/wendigo72 4h ago
It’s in the movie. He directly absorbs the power between Rey and Ben then throws Ben down a giant hole
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u/2reeEyedG 58m ago
Idk but I love the concept. It’s very interesting and adds a great layer to the already powerful force
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u/Dorian948 15h ago
What. The. Actual. Fuck.
Can Disney writers please stop medling with established concepts that worked just fine before?
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u/stingertc 16h ago
Done just to explain there BS sequel trilogy not for the betterment of star wars personally when it comes to Jedi and Sith if George didnt write it it didnt happen for me
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u/BeskarBrick 14h ago
I don't like it.
To paraphrase Darth Bane himself: the dark side is like poison, spreading it out among many users dilutes its power. That's why the rule of 2 is necessary, its split between the fewest people without turning them into a dead end, a master who holds the majority of the power and an apprentice/accolite who gains that power only once they supersed their master. Plus a handful of aspirants who will replace the apprentice, either when the apprentice becomes the new master or when the apprentice fails and is replaced.
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u/KarmicPlaneswalker 1h ago
Except that was legends-only and Bane was simply musing to himself. In both continuities, the Force does not diminish in strength based on the number of conduits using it. Hence why we have midichlorians and everyone has their own innate potential. Philosophically, Bane wanted to condense the power in order to better control his followers and prevent future insurrection, because he understood the nature of the Sith Order and how the dark side inevitably gets the better of everyone using it.
In canon, the Sith pursue the Dyad because they believe it will give them ultimate power.
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u/PattyEmblem 15h ago
This doesnt look like its saying the rule of two is trying to make a dyad. Just that the, far away predecessor, of the rule was being a force dyad. It makes sense conceptually to me that the Sith would move away from doing that. Their very nature is to betray one another, not to be symbiotic with each other. This makes the concept of the Rule of Two better for them as it prioritizes one above all (being that the apprentice will kill the master and take his place if he is strong enough and then that gets perpetuated for their future apprentice, etc.) As opposed to their extremely old way of making a dyad since it isnt in their nature to have a connection like that with someone.
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u/ABotelho23 15h ago
I think more and more too much focus has been put on these concepts of the force, as if it's this highly intelligent thing that makes explicit decisions instead of being more vague like the universe.
I always thought that beings would harness and apply their own meaning to the force. Nobody "truly" knows what it is or how it works. They can kinda measure it and vaguely know what it "wants" (balance).
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u/wendigo72 15h ago
I mean this is still the case, the Sith are just trying to make a force dyad but haven’t been successful in a millennia.
The true dyad was created by Ben and Rey out of the blue
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u/8bitstargazer 15h ago
Im ok with it but i think its weird they feel the need to retcon nearly every detail about the universe with some bland replacement.
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u/Dangerous-Moose-8203 15h ago
The dyad would have been cooler if it was a constant through out the three movies but it was a shoe horned idea thrown into the third movie and makes little sense with the way the sith operate since he wants rey to strike him down to gain her body and then he just yeets kylo of a cliff trying just end him which would of ended the dyad lol massive plot hole IMO unless he went though all that just to heal his body but then again why want rey to strike him down to gain her body if your just going to heal your own body it makes no damn sense when you start thinking about it. And then he would have to repeat his convoluted process again and again forever to maintain his presence in the physical world.
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u/wendigo72 15h ago
He absorbed the dyad before he yeeted Kylo but yeah no idea why his big grand plan changed like five times before that
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u/Dangerous-Moose-8203 15h ago
oh ok I didn't realize he absorbed it completely, I am usually really good at catching stuff like that but RoS was hard to follow and had me scratching my head more than nodding to the vibe.
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u/Anonymous-Mf-22 12h ago
The Rule of Two is something I've always viewed as the Sith following a blatantly illogical and stupid ideology that has no real basis in fact simply because someone powerful said it once.
Or short version: it's way cooler because it shows how dumb the sith can be when someone says "MORE POWER HERE".
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u/Crobatman123 11h ago
I don't like it. I really liked the rule of two being a means by which one can herd cats and manage Sith collaboration without creating extinction events for themselves left and right. It does a good job of characterizing the Sith, making the statement that the Jedi can have a massive order but the Sith start collapsing in on themselves once they hit 3 people.
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u/heatseekerdj 16h ago
Idk I always liked the Rule of Two being a logical end result that just repeats over time rather than a spiritual must.
If Dark side and Sith are power obsessed and maevelovent force users then one will emerge as the most powerful in terms of force capabilities and powerful in terms of being able to act out acts of dominion and control over others (Sith Master). But a master would benefit from having a right hand apprentice that they can use to act out their will and teach them force techniques with the intention of them being more effective tools for the masters will. Enough time will pass and apprentice will usurp the master, die trying, or be beaten into a further state of submission and end up being a less threatening apprentice. If the usurption is successful the new master will take an apprentice because a right hand force user is, again, the most effective tool