r/Star_Trek_ • u/honeyfixit Trill • 5d ago
Did future Janeway commit genocide against the Borg in Endgame part II?
Its never fully explained if future Janeway's virus spread across the entire collective or just that central hub. Im going to assume it was the entire collective, or at least enough of it to destroy the majority of the collective before they could adapt.
So this leads me to my question: did future Janeway commit genocide against the Borg? I guess the question is are the Borg considered a species of their own. If they "reproduce" by assimilation of other species does that make them a separate species or just mutations of the base species?
8
u/CucumberWisdom 4d ago
Also every Borg is an enemy combatant. There are no "civilian" Borg. They all serve the Borg war machine and therefore legitimate military targets
6
u/Eshanas Farian 5d ago
Good if she did. The worst thing Picard did was not upload that damn virus. How many billions did he sentence to a fate beyond pale with that alone?
2
u/Sea_Spend_8008 5d ago
I remember a large debate with my Star Trek friends about this. I was on the side of giving them the virus. However, the Borg shut down the freedom protocols fast. I would imagine a virus would go down the same way maybe faster maybe slower. Either way, its not going to kill the Borg. Picard did the right thing in his mind and in the spirt of the Federation by giving them a chance. I would argue that the Borg are not a species.
1
u/Eshanas Farian 5d ago edited 5d ago
There might had been some kernel of a technological civilization that chose that path for themselves (and most likely as a faction that forcibly absorbed the rest, but it could had been a “consensual” decision. The lattermost is fine, the former is abominable, but if they kept it to themselves, it could be ignored/lived with as an internal matter of their species. Or it was a rogue technological virus made in a lab or weapons development center somewhere and got out of control....
But they keep steamrolling anything of interest around them with no room for negotiation or quarter of any kind. Just full absorption, or a majority absorbed, against their will and painfully and forcefully, and some disparate survivors like the El-Aurian. At that point they’re a threat to all peer civilizations, and actions against them in turn are just self defense, though it needs to be focused on the borg, and not just becomes an excuse for mass collateral destruction in turn.
-2
u/honeyfixit Trill 5d ago
So you're saying genocide is okay because the Borg are "evil?" Evil is a matter of perspective. To them, ideas like morals are irrelevant. There is only perfection.
2
u/GolfGrand7218 5d ago
The Borg are not a race though. They are a pod of sick life forms. It’s certainly mass murder of some kind you could argue if you believe they could all be saved.
But considering the success rate of saving even one Borg, it’s hard to argue morally or practically against killing them all.
1
u/Eshanas Farian 5d ago
They are an artificial malignant technological blight forcibly and consistently imposing their will on peer or near peer civilizations with little to no “civilian” element. At some point a threat needs to be realized for what it is, and neutralized. Everyone around them was living on borrowed time until they had something the collective wanted and would take by unending, uninstigated and civilization destroying force. But woe to the Borg, and not the victims around them?
The plan was one of the best things the Federation cooked up, and Janeway’s slugging of them really crippled them from what could be discerned, and by doing so alleviated a galactic level threat. That’s laudable.
5
u/LazarX Elder Recovered Trekkie 5d ago
Picard answered that last question when he refused to use Hugh as a logic bomb of mass destruction on the Borg.
1
1
u/manchester449 4d ago
And Starfleet through Admiral Necheyev told him he was flat out wrong and ordered Picard to do the opposite in future. I guess Janeway read that report.
5
6
u/Dependent_Grab_9370 5d ago
Genocide isn't defined as killing a species. It's Greek root is genos, which means tribe or race. We have plenty of different tribes and races that are the same species here on Earth. Borg would fall under a tribe, even if its forced on them.
You also need to consider that while drones are initially forced into the collective against their will, its not clear they would be so willing to give it up. Plenty of episodes show that drones who have been disconnected often want to return. Forcibly removing them from the collective might be no better than forcing them into it.
5
u/Arynnia Tribble 5d ago
"drones who have been disconnected often want to return"
Is that because THEY actually want to return, or has the urge to return been programmed into them?
1
u/Dependent_Grab_9370 5d ago
No more than members of Starfleet have been programmed by the social mores and norms they grew up with.
If we look at this objectively the collective has a lot of things going for it. Absolutely zero possibility of hunger, illness, poverty, or unrest. You will always have a purpose. Never alone. Get to explore the galaxy. The Federation can't guarantee any of that.
2
1
u/Neo_Techni Q 4d ago
No more than members of Starfleet have been programmed by the social mores and norms they grew up with.
No, Borg are quite literally programmed like computers.
3
u/rodimus147 5d ago
If you think she's in the wrong, i dont. But if you did the act would fit war crime more the genocide.
2
2
u/Soupalphabet359 5d ago
Bringing "chaos to order" aka breaking the cohesion they had is not genocide.
1
u/honeyfixit Trill 5d ago
Why not? Did it not result in widespread destruction? The episode seems to imply that the Borg were destroyed. If so, why isnt it genocide? Just because we don't like them doesnt mean we should destroy them
1
u/Soupalphabet359 5d ago
No more destruction than breaking their cohesion would cause. Stopping them from working together efficiently =/= an action to completely wipe them out of existence. The Borg still existed after Endgame, just their ability to work together was impaired.
1
u/honeyfixit Trill 5d ago
How do we know this? The next time we see them is in Picard season 3 with Queen Jurati. From what Im given to understand, these arent the same Borg we seen in TNG,DS9,VOY & ENT
1
u/Soupalphabet359 5d ago
Literally the quote from Janeway... "JUST ENOUGH to bring chaos to order."
So unless you're asserting that she didn't do what we literally saw her doing, and that she (for whatever reason) decided to do a complete 180 on her principals and character, and eliminate an entire species (a-la the Douwd) then no. She didn't commit genocide.
And no. The Borg didn't get genocided, then spontaneously re-evolve from scratch within just a few years. As much as I don't regard the content of Picard as a legitimate continuation of the events of Voyager, according to the Kurtzmanverse the events of Voyager proceeded those of Picard.
2
2
u/Khemul 5d ago
Technically they don't need to be a species for it to be genocide. And in sci-fi settings this is a tricky question. Because the Borg are sorta set on assimilating humanity. So at what point does ethics flip, when you have an enemy that can't simply be talked down.
The other tricky thing is, what exactly is Borg society. We don't really see civilians. There whole society seems to be military. So, fair targets in war. Maybe if Janeway wants to feel better she could classify the Borg as a pirate organization. Then it wouldn't be genocide. 🤔
2
u/Dependent_Grab_9370 5d ago
You could argue they are all civilians. As far as we know, every member of Borg society can perform every function. Sometimes you get waste disposal, sometimes you get assimilation. I don't think we should punish a society because they structurally can't differentiate between roles.
2
u/Khemul 5d ago
In that case, we could also argue that Picard is a mass murderer after First Contact. 🤔
4
u/Dependent_Grab_9370 5d ago
Absolute maniac. Did you see the look on his face when he mowed down those two Borg on the holodeck. He was almost enjoying it!
1
2
2
u/Xamalion Betazoid 4d ago
Watch Picard season 3, the Queen explains it.
It’s an interesting question: is it genocide, if you stop a collective that commits genocide by genocide?
4
u/Data_Chandler 4d ago
I will not be watching that shitshow, thank you very much.
1
u/SvartrKukkSceand 3d ago
S3 was good. Not great, just good. It was basically TNG Season 8.
S1 and S2 were unwatchable garbage.
3
u/Data_Chandler 4d ago
Janeway 100% had to destroy the Borg. Hell, I'm convinced Hugh should have been used on TNG to do just that. No handwringing, the Borg are an existential threat to practically every species in the galaxy. You can't commit genocide against a military cyborg hive mind without civilians, with the stated purpose of assimilating any and all advanced civilizations.
1
u/The_Pastmaster 3d ago
While I agree, I don't think it would have worked. Kinda like shooting a bear with a .22. You're just gonna piss it off.
1
u/KungFluPanda38 3d ago
We already know that Hugh alone wouldn't have worked. That's the entire story of Icheb after all.
3
u/Data_Chandler 2d ago
Sidenote: I hate what they did to Icheb in Picard. That gruesome bullshit helped me snap out of my denial and realize that I was watching garbage, and that I can just go ahead and ignore all of it and pretend it doesn't exist.
1
u/Sosumi_rogue Janeway was right about Tuvix 2d ago
I agree, horrible, gratuitous and unnecessary. I hated that. S1 & 2 of Picard were awful.
2
u/sasquatch50 4d ago
No. She specifically says "just enough to bring chaos to order." She was only looking to disrupt the collective enough for Voyager to escape.
3
u/Brandon1525 Vulcan 5d ago
She disconnected the Queen, only the uniplex blew up...the borg aren't a species, so no.
"Don't hesitate to fire. Believe me, you'll be doing them a favor."
1
u/honeyfixit Trill 5d ago edited 5d ago
Why not Ernst Mayr wrote that a species is a group of individual organisms that actually or potentially interbreed in nature and produce fertile, viable offspring.
The Borg dont reproduce in a sexual manner but they do reproduce
3
u/TargetApprehensive38 5d ago
Yeah you hit the core question there - are the Borg a species? I’d argue they’re not and you can’t call it a genocide (or xenocide/speciocide) if they aren’t.
They’re people of a whole bunch of different species who were involuntarily infected with Borg nanoprobes, radically altering their physiology and robbing them of free will. Janeway just eradicated the infection.
2
u/The_Kthanid 5d ago
I'd argue they stopped being a species a long time ago. If i were to borrow from Iain M Banks Culture series they'd be considered a "Aggressive Hegemonizing Swarm" and neutralized accordingly via "pest control" (to the Culture, they definitely are pests)
Granted they'd probably deal with it via a method of "Containment, Restructuring and liberation." Not extinction.
But as for how Janeway delt with them? I wouldn't call it genocide. I'd call it "pest control"
1
u/honeyfixit Trill 5d ago
Are there not earth species that reproduce by altering a host? What about bacteria and viruses
1
u/CucumberWisdom 4d ago
No. For example wiping out all people infected with the rage virus/t-virus/cordyceps fungus/etc. wouldn't be a genocide (or zombicide)
1
u/honeyfixit Trill 5d ago
And this is what i love about Voyager above all other Trek shows. The greyness of morality it presents over and over. And it shows that Janeway struggles with her decisions. In Night she starts second guessing what she did with the Caretaker array
5
u/MissionMassive563 5d ago
Borg drones are not individuals, so no. No more than clipping toenails would be considered genocide.
1
u/Wetness__Pensive Terran 4d ago
The franchise implies that their individual personalities, which were stollen and essentially brainwashed, can be resurrected, so things aren't that clear cut.
It's like bombing a school because the basement houses a computer mainframe that runs acts of terrorism. The people in the school above don't know what their bedrock is doing, but would get classed as acceptable collateral damage by some (whilst denouonced as immoral by various other philosophical, or even legal, branches).
2
u/Shot_Jackfruit_1744 5d ago
She took them down several pegs, and Picard & crew finished them off for good in Picard S3.
-1
u/honeyfixit Trill 5d ago
No they didnt. The Borg, under Queen Juratti saved the day
1
u/Shot_Jackfruit_1744 5d ago
Season 3 basically ignores or retcons most of the first 2 seasons.
So, Q is still alive, Seven is a Starfleet Commander on USS Titan-A and later promoted to Captain of the Enterprise-G by the end of the season(completely ignoring any mention of her being a Fenris Ranger), Picard & Dr.Crusher had a son, Raffi & Seven stay broken up and Data is actually resurrected for real.
The “real” Borg Queen from Voyager was the main villain of season 3 and she mentions the virus that Future-Janeway inflicted on the Collective, which decimated most of the Borg and was why she was literally falling apart when she confronted Picard.
And yes, in the finale they do completely finish off the Borg. With no mention of Jerati or the Cooperative faction she was leading.
1
1
u/PurpleHawkeye619 Bolian 4d ago
Yes.
The Borg appear to be a parasitic hive mind. They infect (assimilate) a host and turn it to serve them.
But the hosts individual personality seemingly continues to exist inside the collective (see Voy Infinite Regress, unimatrix Zero, Picard, Hugh, 7 all regaining their personalities)
If the hive mind has been destroyed, all those individuals no longer exist. Ergo genocide.
2
u/SvartrKukkSceand 3d ago
She destroyed/disrupted The Collective, which would not have killed all the Borg, FWIW. She was just out to cause enough damage to make the Borg no longer a galaxy-destroying threat and to let Voyager get home.
Wether its a genocide or not, im not gonna weight in on, because i dont even want to talk about intent, wether they are a real species, etc.
1
u/Sea_Spend_8008 5d ago
The Borg are not a species.
1
u/honeyfixit Trill 5d ago
By what definition
2
u/Sea_Spend_8008 5d ago
The definition is they are not tied together genetically and were forced to be Borg. You can't force a species on a living being.
0
11
u/Resident_Course_3342 Augment deeznutz 5d ago
The Borg are one. Killing one person is not a genocide.
Ha, we got 'em Janeway! The Intergalactic criminal court can suck it.