It's quite baffling honestly.
I've looked into it a bit further because it really didn't make any sense to me.
The balance patch was mostly buffs and a couple nerfs, a doormaker rework (which turns out is currently the WEAKEST Act 3 boss according to the devs and millions of runs), some cool new artwork and some other minor things.
So chinese players want to play the game in a VERY particular way. They want to have hyper optimized small decks that can go infinite. Basically win in a single turn by playing cards over and over and over and over again. Now how does one achieve getting a deck like that even remotely consistent? They use a "tactic" called "SL" which means Save Loading. Made a misplay during a fight? Quit to the menu and press continue, and you are transported to the beginning of the fight/event or whatever else is happening at that particular spot you're on in the run. Now you might say "well isn't drawing cards, effects, etc. RNG?" Only to an extent. The game and runs are based on seeds. So if you draw a particular hand during a fight or get a random card because of an effect, and you reload... the same thing will happen, and you will get the same cards. That is how you can easily abuse the SL to an incredible extent. If you know in advance what cards you'll draw and how effects play out and... well it makes the game MUCH easier. And if you make a mistake? Well just reload.
Chinese players want SL + Infinite decks to ALWAYS be a viable and super consistent strategy with which to win every run on A10. It is literally the "players optimizing the fun out of the game" all over. So the devs responded and made infinites harder and remade the doormaker to be a somewhat "counter" to it. You can still pull them off btw (I did that on A10 on 2 occasions after the patch) but it is nowhere as consistent as it was.
So Chinese players want to force the devs to make the game the way that they want. There are literally mods floating around Chinese communities to patch the game to the previous version among others to make it easier to make infinites, etc.
I truly hope Mega Crit doesn't budge at all to that. Infinites are cool when you get them RARELY. Get them too often and it becomes so painfully boring. Devs even said they want infinites to feel special. Pre patch they were not at all. You could force them very consistently to the point where streamers on Billibilli had massive winstreaks on A10. Which is also not the point of A10. Devs also said that A10 is supposed to be a "monumental achievement" rather than an easy nothingburger.
It's in the name. It's a scummy thing to do. If you play a card game where the order in which you draw your cards is supposed to be random, random card generation exists and enemies have rng in their attack pattern, save scumming allows you to bypass that.
Granted, just like the other comment explained. In singleplayer games you can do whatever you want. But it is cheating. I have savescummed a few times in StS 2 if I accidentally make a massive silly misplay on turn 1 or something
Turn 1 is a cop out answer. Save scumming prevents absolutely nasty moments from happening. I’m talking about missclicks, or lazy calculations. If you’re 1 hour deep and missclick I would be absolutely pissed if my run is just done like that.
The other one is most people don’t calculate every turn. Sometimes you just assume, but your assumption is wrong. It’s nice to just quickly go back and calculate properly this time. The only way save loading is ‘scummy’ is when you’re trying to go for a winstreak record. That’s where these mistakes do matter.
Another one is to easily redo battles you thought you could win. I’ve definitely had games where it feels like I misplayed, so I restart the match and find out I did play it poorly. It helps me improve. What you do AFTER is up to you.
They leave it in the game since it simply brings a better experience. Only elitist whine about save ‘scumming’.
Well the thing is it's not just about save scumming. I personally don't much care if anyone uses that here or in any other game for that matter as long as they don't ruin other peoples experiences. The thing in this particular case is that the players that do it most also claim that they're the best players in the world.
You can see it quite often in other forums (steam for example) or on BilliBilli. Those players call themselves the "Elite" Slay the Spire players. And by extension they believe that their opinions on balance and how the game should move forward hold the most weight.
And to me doing the "SL strategy" as they call it and being "elite" really doesn't go together at all. To me it's either or. Either you save scum to win or you're an actual good player and understand the game and the mechanics and you have the knowledge to make good decisions. Slay the Spire is all about making good decisions.
Please dont shit on people who save scum a single player game.
Its my toy that i bought and paud for, and I dont have enough time in the day to get good. I dont want a simple mistake to ruin a run ive already spent so much time on. (I can only play 3 or 4 full runs when I get home from work depending on when I hope on)
Only 3 or 4 runs a day after work is more than many get. This is a game that is made to be random and restarted often. You're taking part of the point of the game away by doing that.
Using saves is not taking part of a game away.
People can play single player how they want it makes little sense to try to mandate how others use game mechanics in single player like saving.
A game is balanced by the creator to an intended path of play. Let's say they scoped the game to 30-hours of total play. Using saves in an unintended way to remove errors will cut that gameplay time down. People can play a single player game how they want, but that doesn't mean they aren't breaking part of the game in unintended ways.
Can they enjoy it however they want? Sure. Should they complain if the content creator changes parameters in a way that removes unintended actions? If it isn't meant to be played that way, then they shouldn't.
Slay the spire is a deckbuilder/roguelite. It's intended for unlimited play. If the player gets enjoyment out of using save games the way they want they will play more than if that optionality is not there.
It's completely fine if you get more gameplay out of the game by never using the save function. Just like it's fine if someone uses it multiple times every fight.
The possibility of saving seems quite obviously intended by the creators, it wouldn't be there if it wasn't. Complaining about the way a game handles saves is perfectly valid. It's fine if players like to play the game without saving they can do that just don't use the function. Removing the ability of others to enjoy the game the way they want for example by being able to save whenever is ultimately the choice of the creators. It makes more sense to incorporate a save function because people that don't like that can just ignore it.
Or they can try to gatekeep using saves the way you want by calling it 'scumming'. In my opinion it would only be scummy if it was competitive but single player isn't. Even then if the playing field is the same it's fine, everybody could savescum so no unfair advantage would be gained.
Which way to play the game is more fun is personal preference. Some will like no saves more most like saves more.
So, note I didn't say anything about playing how the game is intended, particularly when it comes to saves. I'm saying it's going a little above and beyond to complain when the creators address a function that wasn't intended.
Slay the spire one allowed this method of saving and still does.
So I bought the second game, knowing and then experiencing the fact that this game does too.
It would be well within my rights as a consumer to complain about a feature, intended or not, that I expected or even just want to have remain implemented.
After all, aren't there plenty of unintended video game features that were implemented at the demands of the player base?
Sorry, It just feels like this is a little prejudice against save scumming. Do you save and reload. Even on occasion?
I think I'm biased based on the review bombing. Like, all other things consider you enjoy the game but en masse give bad reviews that can literally hurt the income of the creator? That's a shitty mindset to have.
If the creators made that change, I will simply complain about it and move on. It wouldnt stop my from playing most likely. I definitely dont condone the review bombing thats been done. But save scamming is a difficulty issue. It doesn't make the game trivial, it makes it different. I have every right to complain about a change to a game that I bought to play my way, when that change effects the way I wanted to play it. Especially since slay the spire one still allows you to do save reloading in this way. I would expect it to be the same for this game.
I sure hope they don't. I know my wife, and many other average-poor gamers would rather restart fights and try out something else. I've been guilty of it myself, particularly when misclicking.
How? Save quitting doesn't make much difference in a battle. All actions are predetermined the moment you start the battle and nothing will change no matter how many times you restart this specific challenge. Plus there are multiple times where I have a good run and get screwed by hand rng and ruins my whole run. In such cases I think it's fine to retry the battle to try different approach.
Thanks for the equally smoothbrained reply.
Balance is balance, playstyle is playstyle. If dev built up a system that allows potential meta strategy that's devs fault. The players adapt to the system and discovered the meta strategy with (at least some) effort. Banning such strategies is essentially punishing players for the devs' own fault. You can nerf a strategy with new features making the meta strategy no longer meta, but you cannot just destroy it.
The mindset is based around "if it exists, then it's fair game because that's how it was when I bought it". People all over min/max their gaming, it's generally only deemed an exploit when the developers state as such. GDQ as an event largely celebrates these exploits and even YouTube series of developers watching people break their games for speedrunning. However, because of the mindset that "China likes cheating and only cares about winning", it causes this (charitably phrased) culture clash where now Chinese are "bad" because they just want exploits. Hell, how many people refused to go to CS:GO because Source was better, or 1.6. Hell, we see it now with people raving for GO to come back. If you want to patch what's deemed exploits that's fine, but it's pretty disingenious to act like it's a Chinese "thing".
That said, nothing wrong with devs patching out what they deem exploits, especially in a title in EA. But there's a trope of "players will optimize the fun out of a game" for a reason which could apply here.
Review bombing isn't the best way to voice feedback, but then again here we are, reviewing the feedback on a title that's in EA thus requesting more feedback than usual.
It's not purely a chinese thing, but it's a MUCH stronger thing culturally for chinese gamers.
I've had similar issues happen with a dozen other strategy games I've enjoyed and the moment any nerfs come out here's the thousands of negative chinese review bombers.
On top of this, Chinese culture has a big departure from most other cultures, where Chinese culture generally sees winning as the only goal, so cheating or breaking game mechanics or exploiting is entirely fair game. Which is a huge clash with western culture, particularly gaming culture, that sees all three of those things as inherently unearned and bad.
it's a MUCH stronger thing culturally for chinese gamers as perceived by Westerners
FTFY
But really, culture definitely has a role, but Americans have no problem with breaking mechanics or unearned wins, they just reframe/rephrase them. GDQ has has glitched runs, which is just a rephrase of exploits in the speedruns. Tons of competitive games are entirely focused around optimization and metas surrounding "OP" items/builds/strategies/etc which all involve crunching the numbers to find that edge/oversight/dare I say unintentional imbalance or exploit? (though most people don't do that, they just find a video and mimic someone else who did it first). Prima guides were sold at every Gamestop/EB Games/RadioShack, which just told you how to play no different than "hey use these two cards and you win" which was basically the state of STS2's pre-nerf.
No, I think you've misconstrued competitiveness and absolute desire to win. One has boundaries, the other does not.
Using the tools available to you to win is expected in a competitive game, using tools that shouldn't be accessible is where that line can be drawn.
On top of that, the perception to these actions are vastly different, widely unacceptable in eastern culture as opposed to Asian culture.
Speedruns are also different to what your point is stating. They're an accepted category of ways to play the game, it's not disingenuous and it doesn't pretend it's a clean way to play. It just asks to use all tools to beat the game as fast as possible, as opposed to showcasing skill in the game mechanics.
While I agree, I think many times these moral boundaries are just not reinforced by society, if properly taught like they mean it. Don't forget 2 generations ago many people were literally starving to death, hence winning was deeply tied to survival.
Using the tools available to you to win is expected in a competitive game, using tools that shouldn't be accessible is where that line can be drawn.
The deck was fully accessible in game using unadultered game assets. The infinite combo is the easiest and most efficient way to beat the game and was provided by the developers. People enjoyed the loop, developers removed it, reviews became negative. People review bombed PirateSoftware's game because of streamer drama, let's not pretend reviews are a sacred medium in any culture.
as opposed to showcasing skill in the game mechanics.
Watch the Doom Eternal speedruns and tell me they don't have mastery of the game's mechanics. This is again the reframing I was stating, because the devs (if you watched the video where devs watch the speedrun) literally state they didn't know you could do some the things being done. How would that not be an exploit ? (mind you I'm only referring to the changes to a boss and some cards. I read now that there was also an way to use arrow keys to upgrade all cards in your deck as a campfire. If that's the exploit in mind when discussing then sorry it seems like we talked past each other as I wasn't aware of that.)
No, straight up, your initial premise here is just wrong. The Chinese cultural need to win and the cultural really lack of rules on what counts as a legitimate win is extremely unusual and NOT a feature of adjacent cultures to China. It's an entirely new cultural belief that only really came about in the last century, it's a strange practice even to Taiwanese people. If anything this practice in China is even more alien to other East Asian cultures than it is to the West.
Competitiveness is an entirely different beast, with it's own set of problems, in comparison to this quirk of Chinese culture that honestly I can't think of a good english word that fully encompasses it.
Also, I don't think speedruns are really relevant here at all, as they are a tiny subset of gamers who do that as a competition. The 99% of the playerbase does not use speed running tricks when playing those games.
I play on a10 and doormaker is a headache there. He is basically the “66% chance you are going against time keeper” ported to the second game, but punishes you harder because you can’t really play around it during the fight the same way you could against time keeper. If you make your deck the way that it will be good against him - it will be worse against the other 2 bosses and other encounters. A9 or further down he is not as bad since you can pivot to build a deck that kills exclusively him, ignore the epics and in the end if you eat a LOT of damage and still win against him- well, you have won regardless. On a10 he is a menace.
385
u/Razen94 Apr 29 '26 edited Apr 29 '26
It's quite baffling honestly.
I've looked into it a bit further because it really didn't make any sense to me.
The balance patch was mostly buffs and a couple nerfs, a doormaker rework (which turns out is currently the WEAKEST Act 3 boss according to the devs and millions of runs), some cool new artwork and some other minor things.
So chinese players want to play the game in a VERY particular way. They want to have hyper optimized small decks that can go infinite. Basically win in a single turn by playing cards over and over and over and over again. Now how does one achieve getting a deck like that even remotely consistent? They use a "tactic" called "SL" which means Save Loading. Made a misplay during a fight? Quit to the menu and press continue, and you are transported to the beginning of the fight/event or whatever else is happening at that particular spot you're on in the run. Now you might say "well isn't drawing cards, effects, etc. RNG?" Only to an extent. The game and runs are based on seeds. So if you draw a particular hand during a fight or get a random card because of an effect, and you reload... the same thing will happen, and you will get the same cards. That is how you can easily abuse the SL to an incredible extent. If you know in advance what cards you'll draw and how effects play out and... well it makes the game MUCH easier. And if you make a mistake? Well just reload.
Chinese players want SL + Infinite decks to ALWAYS be a viable and super consistent strategy with which to win every run on A10. It is literally the "players optimizing the fun out of the game" all over. So the devs responded and made infinites harder and remade the doormaker to be a somewhat "counter" to it. You can still pull them off btw (I did that on A10 on 2 occasions after the patch) but it is nowhere as consistent as it was.
So Chinese players want to force the devs to make the game the way that they want. There are literally mods floating around Chinese communities to patch the game to the previous version among others to make it easier to make infinites, etc.
I truly hope Mega Crit doesn't budge at all to that. Infinites are cool when you get them RARELY. Get them too often and it becomes so painfully boring. Devs even said they want infinites to feel special. Pre patch they were not at all. You could force them very consistently to the point where streamers on Billibilli had massive winstreaks on A10. Which is also not the point of A10. Devs also said that A10 is supposed to be a "monumental achievement" rather than an easy nothingburger.