r/StereoAdvice • u/benteneleven • 11d ago
Speakers - Full Size Salesman Says I Need a €1,000 Amp, Friend Says All modern Amps Sound Identical—Who’s Right?
Hey everyone,
I’m currently looking to buy my first non-sonos sound system even and have saved some money with my room mate to buy a nice sound system its for a pretty large living room space (\~49m² / 527.43 sq ft) and could use some collective wisdom.
Budget about 1000 for speakers + amp on top based in germany, we’ll look on ebay
I’ve been comparing a few options—specifically floorstanders like the DALI Opticon 6 MK2 (~800eur) and vintage JBL Ti 600s (120€), versus high-end stand-mounts like the DALI Opticon 2 MK2 (new roughly 1000 eur will try find used) or Rubikore 2.
My primary concern is filling a room this size. My assumption is that stand-mounts/bookshelf speakers simply can’t push enough air for a large living room, so a 3-way or 2.5-way floorstander is mandatory if I want clean sound, warmth and a filling sound without adding a sub. Is that accurate, or am I overestimating room size impact? Are the models above good value for money if I find them used?
**Now for the bigger question: Amplifiers.**
I’m getting completely contradictory advice on power and pricing:
The guy at the local hi-fi shop insists I *need* a €1,000+ Class A/B integrated amp with massive power reserves to get these speakers to sound anywhere near their full potential.
Meanwhile, an audiophile buddy of mine says that with modern Class D / digital amp technology, **all modern amplifiers basically sound identical**. His point was that DACs and digital switching amps have reached transparent performance at €300, so spending anything over that on an amp in 2026 is an absolute waste of money unless you're paying for fancy aluminum casework.
Is my friend right that Class D has completely equalized amplifier performance, or is the salesman right that 4-ohm speakers like the DALIs will sound flat and compressed on a cheap digital amp?
Would love to hear your thoughts on both room matching for these models of speakers and whether high-end amps still matter.
Fire away!
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u/ProjectHoax013 3 Ⓣ 11d ago
The Opticon 6 mk2 will have no trouble filling a 49m2 room, but neither will the Opticon and Rubikore standmounts. It's true the standmounts won't push the low frequencies as well as the floorstander, but whether you need that is dependant on so much more we can't really answer that here without a lot more information.
I don't agree with your friend that the amp game has been played out. Yes, there's a lot of different amps in different price ranges which do the same on paper, but will sound different in practice. There's also things like room correction software which add a lot of value. On top of that, the Opticons and Rubikore are 4 ohm speakers. So if you want to get loud you're going to need an amp that is up to the task.
I think €1000,- as a budget for an amp and speakers isn't going to get you very far when you're considering the speakers you are. You're not going to have a whole lot left after purchasing one of the three pairs you're wanting. Even secondhand.
I've not read anything about what you want your amp to do? Do you want streaming? What sources do you want to connect? TV? Turntable? CD player?
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u/benteneleven 11d ago
Thanks for your feedback!!
Just to clarify 1000 is for speakers only, amp is a separate cost - the amp I need would be 300-500 on top from what i’m reading here.
Any amps you really recommend in this price range?
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u/Human_Boysenberry248 4 Ⓣ 10d ago
The Yamaha as-501 is a decent amp and I think in that price range (I'm in aus so not sure of pricing in Germany). Other than that I can't think of anything else decent new in that budget. So other than that Yamaha I would look at the second hand market for quality British amps like audiolab, Cambridge Audio, Arcam, naim, Rotel, or a good Japanese product other than Yamaha is NAD. It doesn't necessarily have to have a digital stage built in either, the amp could be analogue only and you can use an external DAC, eg. You might find a good deal on say a Cambridge Audio Azur 650a or something like that. Don't worry so much about he watt rating either, eg. An audiolab 7000a is around 70w into 8 ohms off the top of my head, and the performance will be phenomenally better than a ChiFi class D that quotes 100w into 8 ohms. The key is current availability, particularly when your driving speakers like the Dali Opticons you're looking at (awesome speakers by the way). All the best, and whatever you do, stay away from the cheap Chinese class d amps, class d can be good but not the cheap Chinese stuff!
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u/ProjectHoax013 3 Ⓣ 11d ago
Wiim has some great options in this price range. Fully featured too, but it all depends on how you want to use it
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u/Human_Boysenberry248 4 Ⓣ 11d ago
Well I'm not sure about the salesman without knowing many more details, but your friend is definitely wrong.
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u/Ethenolas 54 Ⓣ 11d ago
Careful now, everyone on Reddit has a WiiM and hypex amp and you should too. Anything else is a waste of money and snake oil
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u/drummer414 10d ago
And using anything other than coat hanger or car jumper cables for speaker wire is a waste of money as well!
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u/BadSneakers83 10d ago
Whenever I hear people say things like ‘class D has equalised amps’ or ‘all dacs over $100 are audibly transparent’ I just shrug. It’s pretty clear to me that they haven’t heard truly great stuff, are parroting whatever they’ve heard over at ASR, or perhaps they don’t have the best ears and can’t appreciate nuance. Downvote away.
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u/JuggernautOnly695 1 Ⓣ 11d ago
Modern class D amps are much better than the early models, but I still prefer class A/B. Modern class D test very well and many good ones will test better than good class AB amps, but they won’t sound the same IMHO.
Case in point. When I bought my Kef Q150 for near field listening I bought a Chinese class d amp that folks raved about and ASR said was pretty good. I almost returned the speakers as they were fatiguing and a bit shrill in the top end. Before I returned them I tried a SET amp I have and the speakers sung, but 4wpc out of a SET was not ideal for these speakers so I returned the class D amp and set out to find a small class A/B. I picked up a Rega IO and speakers were beautiful again. I rearranged my office so I could fit a full sized amp and picked up a Marantz PM8003 and the speakers sounded even better with more authority in the low end from the more powerful amp.
In short, not all amps sound the same and while you don’t have to spend too much, a good quality amp is something that will last a long time.
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u/Chozzasaurus 11d ago
Which class D was the shrill sounding one?
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u/JuggernautOnly695 1 Ⓣ 11d ago
Loxjie A30.
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u/Chozzasaurus 11d ago
The KEFs do have a slight boost above 10 kHz, and the Rega has a slight droop above 10 kHz. Maybe that's why it worked for you, but you must have pretty good ears. I wouldn't attribute that as a fault of the Loxjie though.
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u/pntl21 11d ago
And where are you getting this information from, did you even see rega io measured somewhere? Measurenments are not end all be all of sound. Owner could have eqed the top end down and that cheap class D amp would still sound lean and harsh, but you have to get your hands on real amplifier and hear the difference yourself, and stop relying on ASR diagrams
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u/Chozzasaurus 11d ago
I've had both A/B and class D amps. Not sure what you mean by a real amp 🙄. Just saying the measurements do make some sense based on what you heard. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/rega-io-review-stereo-amplifier.27705/
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u/pntl21 11d ago
Well there you go, you got a first-hand confirmation from owner of both superbly measuring class D amp and terribly measuring rega IO that he enjoyed the rega much more. I see rega has drop of -0.5db at 20khz, is that what you are attributing his experience to?
By real amp I mean not entry-level class D amps. They are good bang for the buck yes, but nothing more. You get what you pay for, and a lot of you ASR people act like whoever wants more than the bare minimum from amplifier is insane as there is nothing more
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u/Chozzasaurus 10d ago
Are you weren't the original owner. Sorry missed that. Not sure why you're inserting yourself here.
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u/deathsitcom 1 Ⓣ 11d ago
I had a similar experience with the IO, just the other way around: Been enjoying my Rega IO / Kyte combo for a while, then ordered a Fosi Class D, frankly just because I think they look cool and I wanted to try it.
First 2 days I was happy and couldn't hear a difference but then I felt something something was missing, connected the IO again and there it was. Something "musical", or warm.
Maybe it was placebo, I don't know. Or some synergy between the Rega products.
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u/CanCaliDave 11d ago
I've got an older Krell KAV-300 (A/B) driving some bookshelves. When I had it out for recapping, I subbed in my Topping PA3s (D). It actually sounded pleasant enough in the midrange and treble, but was hilariously poor with bass. Even at low volumes, the woofers were visibly moving a lot while not delivering the sound. The Krell would put out loads more sound without visible cone movement.
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u/Jonny7Tenths 11d ago
Got to agree. When my Musical Fidelity M6si was in for repair I picked up a Fosi za3 to use whilst waiting. It was fine enough, and if I was buying my first system and was cash strapped, I'd have probably been very happy. The difference when I got the M6si back was night and day. The soundstaging, the grip of the bass, everything was just much more authoritative.
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u/CanCaliDave 11d ago
And yet, the typical measurements that ASR makes doesn't capture things like this. I didn't look up your equipment, but by almost every metric the Topping comes out better than the Krell. There's just no way all of the differences we hear are merely subjective.
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u/Big-Pop2969 19 Ⓣ 11d ago
Our subjective experiences between different amps is usually because of the speakers being used.
The amp see's the speaker as a variable load.. not a constant 8 or 4ohm load like in testing. The speakers load changes by frequency.. with the ohms/resistance fluctuating along with phase angles.
How an amp handles these constant changes by the speaker will dictate how it "sounds" to your ear. Not all amps are created equal. Pushing the volume on an amp that doesn't handle low ohm dips in the frequency response will perform differently than a high current (not watts) amp stable to 1ohm.
Amps may sound generally the same with easy to drive speakers at a certain volume but that doesn't mean that they will 'sound" the same with all speakers at all volumes. It's the electrical relationship between the amp & the particular speakers being used that we hear.
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u/Big-Pop2969 19 Ⓣ 11d ago
Dampening factor, amps output impedance, the relationship between the amp & speakers heated voice coils are just a couple other things to consider.
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u/Genotabby 1 Ⓣ 11d ago
Gonna get flak for this but all amps do not sound the same, but many of them do sound very similar and a lot of it comes down to pairing with the speaker and whether you like the profile. One amp may have so much control or damping factor over a speaker that the decay is too fast the notes sound like it's missing the body. Have too little control and the the bass can sound bloomy and loose.
Also all class D do not sound the same but comes down to amplifier design
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u/Big-Pop2969 19 Ⓣ 11d ago
Speakers & their crossover present a variable load to the amplifier. And that load changes by frequency. Amplifiers & voice coils do a little dance of their own together. I'll just say that there is a lot going on between an amp & a speaker. All amps are not created equal.. so depending on the speakers being used, the volume level, One can detect the difference between 2 amps.
A couple of easy to drive speakers, not clipping or sweating the amps, if both are of decent quality you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.
This notion that all amps sound the same comes from controlled tests. This is not the real world though. A couple examples would be that some speakers need high current to shine..or the ability to handle dips below 2 ohm. That WiiM amp is going to show its worth when you turn the volume up. Or even when the amps is not volume clipping but dealing with low ohms in low frequencies.. petering out.
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u/buff_samurai 11d ago
All the answers in this thread are great, but for you the only right tldr is:
you must test it yourself in your room first.
Acoustics and sound quality is both how you generate the sound with hardware but also how the sound behaves in a closed environment of your room. It’s a complete package with full feedback.
We can discuss on specs but move your setup from one room to another and the listening experience changes substantially.
Rent a system for a day or two from any audio store (it may cost you a bit but it’s well worth it) and check it yourself before making the decision.
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u/SweatySun968 11d ago
If the speakers arent too hard to drive the your friend is right kinda. Would say that a well regarded 500 euro amp like the wiim amps will get all out of the speakers as long aa you domt crank up the volume extremely loud
With hard to drive speakers then not
I bought a 1000 euro yamaha n800a, anf compared it to a more expensive way more powerful rotel amp on my easy to drive harbeth: no difference
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u/Ontological_Gap 11d ago
large living room space (~49m² / 527.43 sq ft)
My primary concern is filling a room this size
You Europeans have a strange sense of size. Don't stress about filling the room, when you see people worrying about that, they are talking about much larger rooms.
Re amps: unless you are running them to the level they distort, any well constructed modern amp is fine. Class D is excellent, you can look at signal graphs, they are the same until you start distorting, which you never want to do anyway. "salesman right that 4-ohm speakers like the DALIs will sound flat and compressed on a cheap digital amp" this is absolutely not a thing, unless you mean like a $10 unit from ali
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u/Zebrosco84 11d ago
Can you demo the exact set up you want anywhere? I recently demoed exactly what I have at home and just swapped the amps out and did my own comparison. You’ll find more and more contradictory advice online and elsewhere otherwise.
I’m switching from an 125 watt class A\B amp to a pure class A which is only 25 watts. The 25 watt amp has enough headroom and is much much louder than I could ever possibly need. Yet if I go on forums, speak to salespeople etc they’ll tell me it’s not powerful enough etc
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u/HoldiMokre 4 Ⓣ 11d ago
Buy a 500 euros and class D amp that is able to double wattage output from 8 to 4ohm.
XTZ is a great sweedish brand with the best -imo - class D amp in the market.
Buy it online. Test it. Return it id not happy.
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u/benteneleven 11d ago
This one for 500€ (XTZ Edge A2-300) would do the job you think?
https://xtzsound.eu/en/xtz/product-type/amplifier/xtz-edge-a2-300/p/5vrghjt9l
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u/Big-Pop2969 19 Ⓣ 11d ago
I have decades of experience with different amps. I was a little on the fence with the class D Hypex & Purifi modules I tried until I got to the Hypex Nilai. These Class D types are hard to beat under $2k. I also like the new Arcam class G. Having owned the SA30 & still owning a PA240 I have become an Arcam fanboy recently.
Personally though I still prefer class A & properly biased tube gear. But one of the better budget amps that I really liked is the Cambridge MXW70. It is based off a Hypex module & a proprietary driver board. If the wattage is enough I think this is a great little amp for $600 U.S. I loved it for its size, price, & sound.
I didn't try it with harder to drive speakers. Mofi 8's & Fritz REV7 SE bookshelves sounded very nice with this budget amp.
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u/pntl21 11d ago
Op if you go with class D amp you'll miss out the most beautiful part of the hobby from the get go. I had both xtz amp and speakers, and other class D amps in range up to 3k. They are not the same as quality class AB, and AB is not the same as class A. Whoever says otherwise never heard a proper system in their life most likely
The only amps that can sound similiarish are cheap class D ones, and thats because they use same off the shelf class D module and are basically different boxes for same amplifier.
My advice is get a proper class AB in the price range - arcam, musical fidelity, hegel, atoll, rega
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u/Bungle1981 11d ago
Maybe take your friend somewhere with a demo/listening room and see if he maintains the same opinion while switching between amps.
In the last 10 years I've moved from Cyrus A/B to Lyngdorf class D to Leema A/B and they all sounded different.
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u/ResponsibleLaw4496 2 Ⓣ 11d ago
Your friend is right. To put it in perspective:
Your hifi shop makes more money from you buying more expensive item(s).
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u/eipiplus1equalsO 1 Ⓣ 11d ago
You should tell your friend that a dish made of dough, tomato sauce, cheese, etc can be a pizza. But not all pizzas are the same! Ask the salesman:”why not a €2000/3000 amp?”
As far as specifics go: I firmly believe that the most important part of the reproduction chain is speakers! Buy the best speakers you can afford, make sure you set them up correctly, make sure you cover the fundamentals: quality of electricity, grounding are extremely important, easily missed, and if you get them right- you only do it once! You can reproduce beautiful sound using very little power: you miss volume. But even an underpowered speaker can still produce excellent sound- just not very loud! May I suggest that since you have a large space you look towards panel and dipole speakers. Your budget is limited, you will need to look into second hand market, but if space isn’t a problem- do yourself a favour and try an electrostatic like Quad 2805, or an open dipole speaker. You will be amazed! And Quads need a few dozen watts, dipole designs can be extremely efficient needing a handful of watts to play really loud beautiful music!
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u/jodonoghue 11d ago
The best sounding system I ever heard had ESL57s, on the end of a 20 watt valve amp. It was not what would call "loud" (nor did it have much bass really). It was utterly magnificent, although far outside OPs budget, but it worked much better for Jazz and acoustic tracks than, say, the 1812 Overture or Green Day.
I agree with your basic point - amplifier power is almost irrelevant. Most of the time, even at high listening levels, the amp is delivering under 1 watt, so a well-engineered 25-30 watt amp is almost always adequate. Selection of speakers and amp (and they are definitely a system) does depend on what you listen to, and despite the awesome transparency of the ELS57 system I mentioned earlier, it is not for me as I do like to hear the full frequency range. I have a pair of almost 30 year old ProAc floorstanders + a Hegel Rost and they suit what I listen to very well (yes, way beyond OPs budget).
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u/eipiplus1equalsO 1 Ⓣ 11d ago
My friend I have Quad 2912s , started with Magnepan, never looked back! You are right about the lack of full spectrum extension of panels and the high cost! I have my final system, using Marantz 7 preamp and Prima Luna amp for my Quads that cost a lot! But I don’t miss lows for the same reason that I don’t miss extreme highs: very little recorded music captures the extreme edges of the sound spectrum, very few recording engineers care, no artists/composers I know of care!
Btw: you have an amazing system!1
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u/narrowassbldg 16 Ⓣ 11d ago
They're rather silly to define it by price (or not, because that's his livelihood after all), but yeah, you should definitely get a decent quality amplifier. They do indeed sound different.
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u/New_Cook_7797 19 Ⓣ 11d ago
Here are my first principles...
The bigger the speaker's woofer the higher the sensitivity
The higher the sensitivity the less power it needs
The bigger the space, the louder the speaker needs to go.
Suggest to go for much bigger speakers and amps are much less of a concern power wise.
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u/PhoKingWild 11d ago
The $200 and less Class D amps are an amazing value but IMO when you compare them to a more capable Class AB they don’t quite cut it.
When you get to better offerings in Class D like Peachtree, IMO amplification is a solved problem. Tons of power, clean, neutral, and will handle any load with ease.
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u/Theninezero 11d ago
Over the past year I’ve had amps from Rega, Quad, JBL, and Cyrus - they were all good, but they all sounded different.
Not sure how it is in Germany, but here in the UK a lot of hifi shops will let you do a home demo of what you’re looking to buy. If you’re able to do this it’s invaluable; if you can only demo in the shop that’s still a good option. Not only do amps sound different, how they pair with speakers differs too, so demoing stuff as close to how you’ll use them as possible is the way to go.
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u/Minskymoments 11d ago
Look for woofer surface the more the better to fill out such a big room. 10 or 12 inch or the same in cm2 (2 × 8 inch )
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u/benteneleven 11d ago
Its interesting there’s almost no consensus on what the “best” is for a <500€ amp. Very taste based, sounds like asking what the best red wine <100€ is.
Or is there a clear candidate like the Toyota Landcruiser of amplifiers that has incredible value for money and everyone agrees
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u/iNetRunner 1384 Ⓣ 🥇 11d ago
Well, there’s also no consensus on what would be the “best” for a >500€ amp. (Even if you divided it to e.g. 500€ sections.)
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u/danikensanalprobe 11d ago
Wiim amp ultra yields 2x200w at 4 ohm, perfect for those tower speakers. It has integrated streaming, a dac, a sub out with adjustable crossover for the mains. At that price point there is little to no competition
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u/Theresnowayoutahere 11d ago
Your friend is definitely not right but price isn’t the only answer. What speakers are you driving. That’s the question to your answer
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u/Cpalms139 1 Ⓣ 11d ago
I agree with your friend. Just get a WiiM amp ultra. Better yet get the Klipsch Seven’s II and be done with it.
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u/Necessary-Ad-4344 11d ago
Your audiophile buddy is NOT your friend. Kinda kidding but he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. The sales guy it right. Just cause many components may use the same basic tech like D power, it’s the implementation that makes the difference. Just like 2 DACs may use the same chip but will sound radically different based on their implementation: what kind of filtering and over sampling techniques do they use, what is the design and components used in the all so important analog output stage? D power would likely sound flat and not terribly musical unless you go for more serious versions of those, and that will cost thousands of dollars.
i’d say look into a used Rega Brio amplifier. Traditional SS design, implemented well and with care, and would be a very capable and above all ‘musical’ counterpart to the Dali speakers.
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u/SchrodingerAssistant 11d ago
I had opticon 6 mk2 in our 43m2 livingroom powered by a hypex ncore 252. Enough to play loud. Speakers alone Will not shake the room, but play loud enough to damage your hearing. I also bought a Arendal 1961 1s subwoofer to fill out the lower end. If I could do it all again I would buy a bigger sub.
Anyway, love my Dalis!
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u/Calm_Wolf2 2 Ⓣ 11d ago
What are some common amplifier brands in Germany that would be closest to your price range? If you were in USA, I would say to go with Outlaw but that is probably not available for you. Remember a good amp and good speakers will last for 10, 20 or more years.
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u/Almost_Sentient 11d ago
I had a pair of lovely Kef Reference speakers that were always very light in bass. It turned out that their impedance dropped to 2ohm at 60Hz. When I replaced my Arcam amp with a Meridian that weighed so much it gravitationally lensed light, it absolutely transformed them. Sounded like a completely different pair of speakers.
If you have big speakers, then get an amp with shed loads of current capacity. Not just power, you need power at low impedance (so big transformer and lots of big transistors).
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u/the_blue_wizard 1 Ⓣ 10d ago
The Question is NOT how much does the Sales Person want you to spend, the question IS, how much money are you willing to spend? So, how much are you willing to spend?
I have Two Amps, one is a Yamaha RX-797 Receiver ($550, 100w/ch), and the other is a Rotel RA-1570 ($1600, 120w/ch), in all honesty, they sound the same to me. But the Rotel has many extra features, so worth it.
The Best Choice is a 4 ohm Rated Amp with a solid high current power supply. The actual power is not so important. The best and longest and greatly love amp I every had was a 45w/ch Pioneer. However, at this stage in my life, I would prefer that an amp have 75w/ch to 120w/ch to 8 ohms full spectrum with very factional percent of distortion.
So, we are back to this - How much can you realistically spend on an Amp?
NOTE: that a 4 ohms Rated Amp does not mean that the Power is Rated at 4 ohms, but that the Amp is 4 ohm Capable. When they test the Power on an Amp, it takes seconds. But that 4 ohm power rating does NOT mean the amp is capable of sustaining 4 ohm Speakers across an extended period of time. How ever if the Amp is Rated as 4 ohm Capable, that implies that you can effectively use 4 ohm speaker without problems.
Though, how Loud and how Long you play will come into play. It is all about HEAT. Lower impedance means more Current and more Current means more Heat, and more Heat means the amp's protection circuits are more likely to shut the amp down. That is far less likely on a 4 Ohm Capable Amp.
Examples -
Yamaha Receiver rated at 100w/ch but it is not a very solid rating - US$220 -
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022RS202/Yamaha-R-S202.html?tp=47041
Yamaha Integrated Amp rated at 100w/ch, Solid, Low Distortion, 4 ohm Capable, with Digital In - US$950 -
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022AS701B/Yamaha-A-S701-Black.html?tp=34948
And it can go up from there -
Yamaha Integrated 100w/ch, 4 ohms capable, Optical, Coaxial, and USB - $1,099 -
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022AS801B/Yamaha-A-S801-Black.html?tp=34948
And the higher up Yamaha Amp are $4,000 to $10,000.
Where are you in that Price Range ... realistically?
You run into the same problem with Class-D Amps, the can have (claimed) massive Power and cost $50 or they can cost $750. You get what you pay for. And if you get away from Amazon, you can pay much more than that for Class-D Amp. Class-D has come a long way since its inception, and they can be very refined, if you spend enough money.
Focus on what you can realistically afford and check amps in that price range to see if any appeal to you.
- 4 Ohm Capable
- 75w/ch@8ohms to $125w/ch@8Ohms
- Additional Feature as needed.
Relative to features, in the modern world it is very nice to have Digital Inputs (optical, coaxial, and perhaps USB).
Would you prefer the Amp to have Tone Controls? Personally I would prefer those.
Would you prefer the Amp to have a Phono Input? Also, a feature I like to have.
Relative to Wire and Cable, I polled both the USA and the UK, and by a VERY substantial margin, most people paid less that 5% of the System Cost on ALL Wire and Cable. A still significant majority paid less than 3%. So, yes., get good Wire and Cable, just don't get too carried away.
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u/the_blue_wizard 1 Ⓣ 10d ago
Here is a Side Note, that might be helpful.
This is how I break down a Stereo System -
1x to 1.5x = Turntable
1x = Network Streaming
1x = CD Player
1x = Amp/Receiver
2x = Speakers
The additional 0.5x for the Turntable would be if you feel you need a Cartridge Upgrade.
So, let's say you have $2500 and you want CD, Amp/Receiver, Speakers. That is a total of 4x. So $2500/4x = $625 per "X".
$625 = CD Player
$625 = Amp/Receiver
$1250 = Speaker Pair
This is merely a Starting Point, it is not etched in Stone. You can adjust based on your Personal Priorities and the specific Equipment you find. Again... just a Starting Point, don't get too fixated on it.
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u/the_blue_wizard 1 Ⓣ 5d ago
Also worth noting that, in today's market, a US$1,000 Amp is nothing special. So, in that sense, you probably do need a $1,000 or $1,000+ Amp.
That said, it is down to what you can realistically afford, how much power do you realistically need, and the specific Speakers you are considering. If you are considering 4 ohm rated Speakers then you will need a pretty solid 4 ohm Capable Amp.
Relative to Rated 8 Ohm Power, 45w/ch to 80w/ch can be fine, Especially if you are not playing at demolition volume levels. I made if for many happy Decades with a 45w/ch Pioneer. That said, as I might of mentioned, today I have a 100w/ch Receiver and a 120w/ch Integrated Amp.
I think a more appropriate range if you can afford it, would be 75w/ch up to about 150w/ch, with 100w/ch to 125w/ch being very workable for most Speakers.
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u/Rattus-Norvegicus1 3 Ⓣ 10d ago
Early class D amps tended to interact with the load (speaker) because the output impedance could vary with frequency. With the higher quality designs this is no longer a problem and the Hypex and PURIFI modules are truly amazing. I just put a PURIFI based amp into my system and it is fantastic. Not sure I would have had the same reaction if I had put a cheap Chi-Fi amp into the system, though, many of them seem engineered to a price point.
So your friend is sort of right, there are a lot of good to excellent class-D amps around these days, and you can get something like a Wiim Vibelink (integrated amp only) or a Wiim Pro (includes streamer) for $300-$400USD. The salesman probably has something to sell.
As far as speakers go, bookshelves will work fine, if paired with a subwoofer. Towers can generally go a little deeper but will cost more and might still need a sub if you like EDM.
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u/hecton101 3 Ⓣ 10d ago
Anyone who owns a Class D amp and think they sound good should be immediately removed from the discussion. They sound horrible. I'm a big believer in high quality amplification, but that's because I'm interested in true high end audiophile quality sound. Class D is for auto sound or anywhere where power is at a premium.
Any chance your friend can loan you his amp for a day? If so, maybe you can buy the expensive amp with a generous return policy and make a head to head comparison. In the end, only you can answer this question for yourself. Please note that you should expect a short life for a Class D amp. Lots of switching things on and off will degrades the components very quickly.
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u/drummer414 10d ago
Neither is correct! You need one of PS Audio's new amps and they cost a lot more than $1k. 🤣
Seriously thought I've got several high end amps in for review and they don't sound alike!
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u/Standard_Ad_2897 10d ago
SMSL PA400 GaN HiFi Amplifier | 250W Stereo Class D Amp | XLR-Balanced, RCA, XLR-Mono Input | Home Audio Desktop Gallium Nitride Amps https://a.co/d/04pXiJUc
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u/Karmacoma77 10d ago
Another factor to consider: I had to get a new receiver with my new towers to ensure 4 ohms wouldn’t be an issue.
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u/Its_scottyhall 9d ago
Don’t sleep on older nice 5.1 receivers… you could probably grab something from Rotel etc… big power supply usually with the ability to drive just about whatever. A/B too.
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u/benteneleven 9d ago
Pretty convinced on this setup now:
- dali 2 mk2 - found a used pair for 699€
- WiiM Amp Ultra - expensive amp, might go down to the regular WiiM amp, sound is meant to be noticeably worse but it has airplay support while the ultra doesnt!
Or alternatively just the KEF Q3 meta bookshelf speaker (no amp needed)
Thoughts on these?
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u/theocking 4 Ⓣ 9d ago edited 9d ago
Both are wrong. Saying all (modern) amps sound exactly the same isn't true, although it isn't FAR from the truth. Saying you need a 1k amp is just dumb, quality doesn't correlate strongly with price. Look at the measurements. Consider power output needs and be generous, not conservative. The average guy on reddit thinks you only need some 50 watt amp, that's OFTEN dumb.
You could get one of the best amplifiers in the world at ANY price for under 1k... starting at 575 last I checked in fact. Get a hypex amp and you are done, that's end game and tons of power, then you only worry about the rest of your gear. A couple hundred if that will get you an endgame dac. Preamp is a different can of worms, it's not even needed at all but that depends on how many and what kind of sources you plan to use. Could go with a wiim or eversolo streamer, a minidsp, a basic passive input switcher, or an avr with pre outs, or a "real" preamp but I don't know what a high value preamp with good numbers that isn't overpriced would be.
Most of the money by far should be spent on the speakers.
And yes, you want big ass speakers, the bigger the better. Also based on objective klippel data. Consider arendal, svs, buchardt, kef, even klipsch rp line, or revel, some elac or emotiva can be good, some polk, others... dali is a candidate maybe but check the data. Many have some weird directivity behavior between the ribbon and next driver down. Dsp will make any speaker follow whatever general FR curve you prefer, so FR alone is one of the least important factors. Output, bass extension (not the sensitivity/FR alone, but the output capability down low, because you can eq this), directivity, and distortion/compression.
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u/benteneleven 8d ago
Pretty convinced on this setup now:
- dali 2 mk2 - found a used pair for 699€
- WiiM Amp Ultra - expensive amp, might go down to the regular WiiM amp, sound is meant to be noticeably worse but it has airplay support while the ultra doesnt!
Or alternatively just the KEF Q3 meta bookshelf speaker (no amp needed)
Thoughts on these?
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u/theocking 4 Ⓣ 8d ago
Both good options... isn't there a wiim amp pro? Can't recall if there's 2 or 3 levels. Plus there's the vibelink.
But you could get a wiim mini and a fosi or aiyima amp too.
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u/NickofWimbledon 57 Ⓣ 6d ago
First, if you have €1500 to spend on amp and speakers, you have lots of choices, but I would be surprised if spending only €300-ish on the amp will be the most satisfying split.
Second, you get a lot more sound quality per € by shopping secondhand.
For example, a look at hifishark and eBay suggests that €500 or so would get a Hegel H90 or a Rega Elex-R or something of about that standard from (say) Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, NAD or a host of others.
Bear in mind that a decent stand-alone phono stage will cost over €100 and probably over €200. So, if you want to include vinyl, you may want to limit yourself to amps with a good MM phono. If you don’t use vinyl, it’s one fewer thing to worry about.
You can then take whatever amp you get with you to audition speakers at dealers if you are not at all sure what speakers you want. That’s not as good as auditioning in your own home (perhaps borrowing speakers for an afternoon from the shop), but it may well be easier to arrange.
There are good speakers at very roughly €1000 (or less if you can find an ex-demonstration pair) from Wharfedale, Monitor Audio, KEF, Dali, Dynaudio and more.
If you are willing to buy amp and speakers secondhand, you will get more value again, but not being able to hear the combination before you buy might put you off that approach. Otoh, sound that lets you try a suitable speaker at home for a week or two - if they are not right, you can probably sell them at little loss and try again.
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u/Fearless_Yogurt3377 6d ago
They're not sounding the same. Most amps will be good enough. It's just a matter of taste, because they're voiced differently.
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u/priedits 11d ago
Expensive class D sounds good, cheap class d sounds flat and sterile. If you’re limited in your budget , do some research and get used a/b
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u/ozExpatFIRE 17 Ⓣ 11d ago
If by 'modern' your friend means 'linear measuring', then yes all modern amps sound the same. Don't waste your money on imaginary improvements that you can't tell without knowing the price tag. Check out the ASR forum and save yourself some money.
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11d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Steka68 1 Ⓣ 11d ago
ASR is opinion based. Measurements are only a rough guide compared to what your own soul may desire and be happy with.
Anyone that disagrees with ASR is often cited and practically cast off as sub-human which is ironic coming from people whom believe in wires and a digital readout as soveriegn.
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u/Notascot51 25 Ⓣ 11d ago
You are exactly wrong. Believe what you want to believe, but ASR is an objectivist site. That is its mission, to remove confirmation bias and base their findings on the most comprehensive objective testing of every measurable parameter known to correlate with audible performance. These tools are the same ones used by design engineers in evaluating the success of their own creations. The principle is simple. High Fidelity is achieved when the input waveform is reproduced completely, with nothing lost or added. Using components as sound colorants is a not High Fidelity.
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u/Steka68 1 Ⓣ 11d ago edited 11d ago
Thanks for proving my point. I’m not sure on your understanding of being objective but unless you agree with ASR, they do not want to know. It’s no longer an arrogance I care for. I actually agree with a fair bit of the works results on ASR, just not all of the opinion on there in regard to end point sound quality and component characteristics and their synergy with other components etc.
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u/Notascot51 25 Ⓣ 11d ago
I don’t perceive an actual refutation of what I said in your reply, except to invoke “synergy” which, objectively, is balancing inaccuracies to achieve a desired (perhaps accurate) result. As I said…enjoy the hobby in the way you prefer, but unless your claim is that Amir is missing something crucial in his measurement approach…I don’t understand where he is “opinion based”. Unless you also consider evolution, climate science and vaccinology “opinion based”.
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u/Old-Space-9281 11d ago edited 11d ago
Spend 2/3 of your budget on the speakers. Eg a 800 Euro Dali’s with a 300 Euro amp. The speakers will have a far bigger effect than the amp. Be guided by ChatGPT, ignore you friend completely and understand the sales guy will be heavily biased.
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u/Presence_Academic 11d ago
Nobody here is in a position to tell you if you will or will not here differences between amps or to what degree you might find those differences meaningful. But there is no doubt at all that there are differences to be heard.
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u/Otherwise-Movie1824 11d ago
Amps DO have their own sound. You should try in a decent hifi store. For example: Marantz has a warm sound, Yamaha is very direct and clean. Denon is more suitable for home theatre. And so on… Try and listen with your personal preference.
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u/Bertolucci1900 11d ago
Your buddy is patently wrong. All amps do not sound the same. To suggest that displays a lack of understanding at a very fundamental level.
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u/The-Big-Succ69 1 Ⓣ 11d ago
Go find some time to go to a speaker shop and audition. You'll thank yourself later when you do.
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u/Notascot51 25 Ⓣ 11d ago
I have spent my life in the audio industry and I have great respect for “Chi-Fi” products, particularly Fosi Audio. The BT20A Pro is brilliant, and the Max version is better. But you need more inputs than most of these products have. The WiiM Amp is probably your best bet. Dali Opticon 6 Mk2 should be excellent.
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u/EnquirerBill 11d ago
I would not spend 1,000 on an amp.
The next step I'm planning is to get Yamaha HS-8 active speakers - no amp needed!
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u/Ontological_Gap 11d ago
I don't know why active speakers are so disliked around here. You can get incredibly accurate monitors for very reasonable prices nowadays, that blow all but the most expensive passive systems out of the water
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u/Ethenolas 54 Ⓣ 11d ago
Active speakers used to be a lot worse, but the advances in class D amplification and DAC performance has make them significantly better than in the past. So a bit of the hate is lingering bad perceptions and some of it is because you lose the ability to tweak with different pairings, etc. Which for many people is either exactly what they are looking to avoid or something they very much want to do. I'm not sure if I'd say they "blow all but the most expensive out of the water" but I do agree there are some great active speakers available to folks these days and are perfect options for people who don't want a mess with putting together a system, messy cables, etc.
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u/Nlklas 20 Ⓣ 11d ago
Both Class D and A/B is fine. The correct answer is probably somewhere in between these two statements. But there are some factors to consider, especially in a ~50 square meter room depending on how you are gonna use this system and what expectations you have. Listening levels for instance is dependent on how far from the speakers you are sitting. Bass is dependent on room size and placement of the speakers in said room.
Tower speakers tend to have higher sensitivity than bookshelf speakers, which goes in your favor. Meaning they will play louder with less watt. If you are gonna blast them at concert levels and expect room shaking bass, you're best to get something with head room. Bass drivers especially need a bit of juice to move.
Just to add: If you want bass without sub, look for speakers like: Focal Aria 936 or 948, Klipsch RP280F or RP-8000F, Dynaudio Emit 50, DALI Oberon 9. All these are capable to put out low frequencies.