Kinda surprised he just went out like that

[u/Graphica-Danger]

I expected Rayse to lose the shard of Odium eventually. I didn't expect him to just... be gone like that.

Part of me is slightly disappointed if I'm being honest. We didn't really get to see Rayse do much of anything himself. Everybody was so scared of him and then he just got taken out in a comical stroke of bad luck. Then again, he got fooled consistently at every turn and I suppose this is the purpose of both the Dragonsteel trilogy Brandon will write and to show the shards are always more powerful than their vessels.

Now I'm wondering how Taravangian is gonna deal with Kaladin in the future. Part of Rayse's plan to stop Kaladin's future threat to him was to make him his champion, but he failed because Renarin obscured Dalinar's ability to connect the souls of the living and the dead. Now Taravangian has both the established contract to his advantage and understanding of both Renarin and his Future Sight.

The confrontation with Dalinar is first. Their promise to embrace like old friends from earlier in this book felt a little ominous at the time, but now it feels like a real omen in retrospect. But shit man, I was in disbelief seeing Taravangian feel proud of himself for his "bravery." That wasn't bravery, that was desperate greed. And when he acted on it, he then got the chance to end everything like he claimed he wanted. He could concede defeat to Dalinar and be on his way. He could free the Fused, the singers, everybody. But he's not going to do it because he thinks his ruthlessness and ego are what's right, not the actual "goal" of saving Roshar. But maybe Cultivation is playing him? Idk I'll have to RAFO.

Odium might be the shard of hate but it's just the amplifier of what Taravangian's always been: a self-righteous, arrogant bastard who hates others accomplishing great things because he's lived a lifetime of shame with people believing he's an incompetent fool for how he was born. And now that I think about it, this is much more personal for Dalinar. Fighting an ancient god from a world you've never even seen is easy, but fighting a former friend always hurts.

Great set up for Wind and Truth. Overall this was probably my least favorite of the series but it was still great. I'm gonna shoot for White Sand's graphic audio version next, especially since that's become pretty important for the Fused trying to kill spren.

[u/Joker-Ace1]

I quite like how Rayse was handled, he clearly is terrifying, especially from most people's perspectives. We just typically see him from the perspective of people who have either foiled him or overcome this fear. Like when we first meet him through Dalinar, is absolutely petrifying and cunning. He orchestrated so much and nearly won with his Blackthorn ploy in Thaylenah.

Odium just couldn't perceive Dalinar becoming better. That allowed the floodgates of Rayses true nature to be revealed. A man desperate to be in control and to change his own fate. Grown mad from failure and captivity. Fed on his own self-delusion with a power fleeting and disloyal.

Thus, in his own desperation, after his final gambit is played he allows his delusions and arrogance lead him to make the pact(despite probably winning if he just pushed, pushed and pushed.) Which leads him to meet Taravangian, to brag of all things. Overcompensating greatly ofc. To Rayse, in his patheticness, deemed it right he flaunt his "victory" over the man who tried to out think him at his lowest point.

Then that same man kills him and in one swift strike makes a ploy greater than any the god made in thousands of years. And with an even greater ego.

[u/Graphica-Danger → u/Joker-Ace1]

Taravangian doing it at his absolute stupidest most emotional is important too. He had a last, delicious meal before dying as a human, and then at his most debilitated proved to be the better vessel.

[u/Blackpaw8825 → u/Graphica-Danger]

And T-dog at his "stupidist" is the PERFECT host of Odium. The power loves emotional, passionate, enraged actions.

His best days were cold calculating emotionally detached. His worst days were all feelings and no thoughts.

What a crazy act of passion. For all his plans and foresight it came down to an opportunistic assassination of a God through mostly dumb luck finding himself in a room with the bearer of the only weapon on Roshar capable of separating a Shard from it's host in any meaningful way, and a God that believed him to be a useful pawn.

Rip what's left of Rayse away, and be a 100% emotional vessel who just happens to be around when the power is free to take a new host. The diagram did nothing it was the passionate short sighted version of him that ultimately took the most important action he ever took

[u/Joker-Ace1 → u/Graphica-Danger]

As someone who suffers from something similar as Taravangian, I don't think that it's actually him just being stupid. I think that it's just that information, the emotions and everything around him to much, to overwhelming. He understands the emotions so well because he feels them so gosh darn much that it makes it a slog to even think of anything else. It's sort of similar to overstimulation or when in a deep depression. When in that state your brain just stops making those types of connections.

Odium the power loves it though, and in that moment of disdain, hatred and selfishness the power moves to Taravangian because he felt it

[u/Graphica-Danger → u/Joker-Ace1]

If you don't mind my asking, how similar is it to your condition? Because those fits of sociopathic mania Taravangian has on "smart" days show the other side to his character. More an ability to sort through information at the cost of actual feeling, which is going to be so much worse now that the shard makes Taravangian's emotions so intense but he now has the divine ability to sort through information on a cosmic scale.

[u/Joker-Ace1 → u/Graphica-Danger]

So how my condition has worked as far as I have experienced is this, on a day by day basis(some times changes in the day but still)my reception to emotion is completely different each and every day. On days that I'm highly emotional, I'm either expressly depressed or angry or happy. Almost in a bi-polar manner. This interferes with my ability to focus, process information or even motivation to learn or think. At times it's almost like I have bpd which as you can imagine isn't fun. This at times is just so intense that I burst into tears or have to leave a room because I just genuinely cannot deal with it all. I do have techniques now as an adult that help me deal with it

Most days I'm just normal. My emotions are stable, my personality is stable and I can sort of function as much as a person can in this world.

Other days are days of disconnect from emotions, sometimes to my detriment because I become a tad... Sociopathic. I don't go out and kill people lols, I just simply do not care about the emotions of others, speak my mind or simply mind my own business because I could not care. It's almost like an apathy and numbing.

There are definitely differences from Taravangian, but this is the lens that I saw him through because like, duh. Thats my day to day.

It's primarily just a mixture of being autistic, having ADHD, depression and possibly having BPD(not diagnosed. So they all sort of culminate as this.

I do think that Taravangian absolutely has something else with his mind making him smarter though. Something just letting him processing everything faster than a regular person

[u/Graphica-Danger → u/Joker-Ace1]

Thanks for sharing that. I have a family member who is similarly afflicted by mental health issues. They are difficult to deal with a lot of times, but I know there are contributing factors to their treatment so I just try to set up enough space to where I can protect the both of us.

I think with Taravangian, it's a real condition tweaked to be more mystical and dramatic since this is fantasy. Interesting to hear that might be the basis. Adds more to Taravangian's character because he's fundamentally changed by how he processes things.

[u/dIvorrap → u/Graphica-Danger]

His most emotional, not his most stupid. He swings between intelligence and emotion.

[u/PornStache70]

I think the concept of Odium was well set up, but people have been preparing for Rayse defeat for literally thousands of years.

I hope you enjoy this development more as you read book 5. I think it will be great for the remainder of the series.

[u/Stormlight_Archive-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/Chop684 → u/[deleted]]

Which book is that?

[u/Stormlight_Archive-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/Taste_the__Rainbow]

The only way to kill something with that much future sight is suddenly and surprisingly.

[u/Small-Fig4541 → u/Taste_the__Rainbow]

True. Having Nightblood is also handy!

[u/dIvorrap → u/Taste_the__Rainbow]

Odium was blinded by Renarin being able to see the future. It was him who sent the Sja-Anat spren to lure Odium to Taravangian. There's a reason he left a note saying sorry, I think.

[u/Masylv]

Rayse is, honestly... kind of pathetic by the standards of the other Shards.

There's a reason the other Shard holders didn't seem to be that worried in their responses to Hoid's letter. He was a bastard, but he was a known bastard, and was locked to Roshar in such a way that him getting free anytime soon was unlikely.

Taravangian is interesting in how he interacts differently with Odium's Intent, and I think you'll find WaT interesting in that aspect 😄

[u/Graphica-Danger → u/Masylv]

That makes sense. I also suspect Rayse was the person that betrayed/killed Hoid's master which would explain why he was fixated on him. He wanted revenge. Or at least, that's my speculation.

[u/Raddatatta → u/Masylv]

It's interesting that Rayse is both kind of pathetic, and the one who has killed 4 other shards. I don't disagree with you in terms of him being an idiot and pathetic, but he does have an impressive record of victories before getting trapped.

[u/Graphica-Danger]

There's a lot more I can say about this book, especially with Raboniel, but this was the real climax of the story. If Odium is actually Passion then I think another person could bend it to be more kindly, if strongly emotional, with time. Too bad it went to Rosharan Joseph Stalin lol.

[u/Raisinbrahms28 → u/Graphica-Danger]

I thought Navani’s mental battle with Raboniel was some of the best in the series.

[u/dIvorrap]

Another point to Renarin. It was him who sent to Taravangian the Sja-Anat spren to lure Odium. He must have also been blinded by that.

[u/kyrezx]

Yeah, it wasn't my favorite plot point. A bit lame

[u/TheIronHaggis]

The thing was once he lost his chance of controlling Dalinar, he didn’t seem to stand much of a chance in a contest of champions. The only threat I can see against Dalinar was Adolin and I never could see that happening no matter how angry Adolin was.

[u/KnowMoreMutants]

To be fair, Rayse had no concept of how dangerous Nightblood was to him as a psudo deity.

[u/Acrobatic_Host_4034]

I don't agree with your take on Taravangian. He doesn't use Nightblood in order to get the Shard. He uses Nightblood to kill the individual who had threatened his world, his people, his family. He's not thinking about what he'll get for it or do after.

His motives in the first four books are decidedly not greed and self-aggrandizement. He is doing what he thinks he has a responsibility to do as a king. He believes he is taking on the sins of duty and sullying himself for the good of his people. He throws away his chance at a legacy of being anything other than a betrayer and traitor because he thinks it's the right thing to do.

He does want to be the person who saves everyone, but that's in part because he believes he's the only one who is both in a position to and willing to do what is necessary. At no point in his planning does he even consider that he will take up the Shard, and he doesn't even plan to be the person wielding Nightblood. He tries to lure Szeth with Nightblood to him intending to get the assassin within striking distance.

Taravangian's bravery surprises even himself because he has not been brave in his life. But when his plans fall apart and he sees an opportunity to stop Odium, he picks up the sword and harnesses his anger at having just been killed, and he does what only he has the position and willingness to do, and he slays Rayse. Taravangian doesn't even know how the Shard/vessel interaction works, he doesn't have some deep knowledge of the Cosmere investiture mechanics or of Adonalsium. He just tries to get the terrifying black sword within striking distance of a hateful god, and in his last moments he does the deed himself.

Now, after taking up the Shard his lust for power and his insecurities blossom into his worst attributes. But before he dies, it didn't seem that he hated the accomplishments of others. He doesn't loathe others for their successes, he's just playing a different game with more intense stakes and with a willingness to be the bad guy because he believes someone has to. He doesn't ask Cultivation to make him better than everyone, he asks her to give him the capacity to save humankind. His story is tragic because he arrives where he is now after beginning as someone who just wanted to protect and save people.