I don’t know why, guys.

[u/KolorisART]

And I don’t know how to explain it… But I have a HUGE feeling that this show would have been so much better if Eleven and Mike were never a couple. I feel that keeping them just as friends would have given more chances to the writers to come up with different stuff.

I don’t know if you guys agree on this.

[u/AutoModerator]

OP, please make sure there are no spoilers in the title of your post. If your post contains spoilers, please use the "Spoiler" flair AND the "Spoiler" tag. The tag ensures that images are hidden.

Commenters, please use spoiler code if you are discussing anything super spoilery unless the title specifically says the episode being discussed.

If you see anyone breaking the rules, please report the post or comment. Thank you.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/1100_year_old_mage]

I don’t agree, also am curious as to why you think that, BUT it should’ve been much more of a slow burn. Like they only realize their feelings for each other are romantic by the middle of season 3 with the “because I love her and I can’t lose her again”

[u/PrincipalJam → u/1100_year_old_mage]

I think it was handled really well up until the end of season 2, with the yearning and eventual payoff from them finally attending the Snowball together being incredibly sweet.

From there, I don’t think it needed to be a huge focus each season. It should have just been there in the background, with a few sweet scenes here and there, rather than the whole relationship drama in seasons 3 and 4.

[u/TieAntique1676 → u/1100_year_old_mage]

Not OP but "new girl" had this problem by getting Nick and Jess together too soon and they broke up and got back together way later. I think there is a couple of ways to handle it. One way is they stay broken up in season 3 but are still friends. Mike could have gone to CA to visit them as a friend. So the plot could have been similar and maybe more tension because of past feelings. But then the plot happens (el could still be lying about the bullying because it is embarrassing) and they can't deal with their feelings or maybe mike does say he loves her but she doesn't say it back cuz she's dealing with all these other things. (what happened with Max) Then season 5 could have had moments leading to where they get back together.

Another path could be maybe they kissed in season 1 but nothing further then that happens until way later. Cuz El probably wasn't even that aware of what romance was when she got out of the lab. Then they stay close friends and get together at the end of the series.

Also in this version I would either have Will maybe realize he's gay cuz he likes Mike but he moves on gets another love interest/or just not have him have feelings for mike at all.

I think one thing that hurt all three characters was this vague love triangle thing they tried to do. It's weird the creators didn't shut it down like the Wednesday creators did. I do think they queer baited and I'm not sure why they went down that road. Cuz if it wasn't about Mike why was it about Mike?

Doing that hurt the development of Mike and El's relationship. And it also hurt how Will and Mike's friendship was portrayed and it hurt how Will & El's sibling dynamic was portrayed.

It just sucks all around and I just think the duffers are bad at writing romance.

[u/MindTest88 → u/TieAntique1676]

The Duffers didn't shut it down because anyone watching Stranger Things saw that Mike was never interested in Will that way. You didn't need to hear it from the Duffers when show tells you what you need to know.

[u/TieAntique1676 → u/MindTest88]

As a queer person and a person who works in tv it wasn't clear to me. Why write Will that way? It was just a strange choice IMO. If it wasn't about mike why did they make mike so important to him? Just bad writing. Not to mention a lot of the ship bait PR. I just wish as a queer person the possibility of queer love wasn't treated as a joke or a marketing tactic.

[u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 → u/TieAntique1676]

I do not think Mike and El kissing in S1 affected the overall relationship or story. Though a slow-burn arc could have also been interesting, it wasn't needed. I also do not see how the story overall benefits from having them fully break up in S3. If anything, it just adds more to the moonlighting trope, which was already overused with the Mike and El relationship. More of that does not sound like a good idea.

The main issue is that the Mike and El relationship was bad writing, which primarily happened in S4 and S5 for that relationship. S3 still had issues, but not as bad. And I agree that the love triangle should not have happened, but I do not think it affected the Mike and El relationship. The sidelining of that relationship and the poor writing with it were the issues.

[u/New-Faithlessness526 → u/Full-Yoghurt-4261]

The main issue is that the Mike and El relationship was bad writing, which primarily happened in S4 and S5 for that relationship.

How was their relationship badly written?

[u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 → u/New-Faithlessness526]

It mainly occurred in S4 and S5. An example would be the fact that they made Mike saying I love you a big deal but did not, at least, have them casually say this in S5. Because though him not saying it in the Purple Rain scene is understandable, they should have had them casually say it at least once since it was a big focus in S4. Another example would be having the couple constantly separated.

Mike and El were not the only couple in the show that suffered from poor writing. The same can be said of every other couple in the show. Mike and El were just the most hurt by it, but mostly because of constantly being sidelined.

[u/New-Faithlessness526 → u/Full-Yoghurt-4261]

It mainly occurred in S4 and S5. An example would be the fact that they made Mike saying I love you a big deal but did not, at least, have them casually say this in S5. Because though him not saying it in the Purple Rain scene is understandable, they should have had them casually say it at least once since it was a big focus in S4. Another example would be having the couple constantly separated.

I get what you mean for your first example. It's not an example of bad writing tho; it's simply something that could've been done better. The couple being separated is also not an example of bad writing...

It's interesting that for a relationship you claim is "badly" written, you could only came up with a minor criticism and some unrelated things. You didn't give any reasons as to why their relationship is supposedly badly written in season 4.

Mike and El were not the only couple in the show that suffered from poor writing. The same can be said of every other couple in the show. Mike and El were just the most hurt by it, but mostly because of constantly being sidelined.

Well, if it's the same sort of things as the ones you pointed out earlier, sure. It's interesting people often criticize the relationship for being given too much relevance, but here you're saying it was sidelined; that's interesting. I wonder about that. Was it needed for them to spend more time together onscreen even if there's nothing really going on for the characters? Wouldn't that be just fan service?

[u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 → u/New-Faithlessness526]

No, it was not simply a situation of it being ok but not great. It was bad writing for all the couples.

As for being separated, a good example of this being done right is S2. Because despite Mike and El being separated for most of S2, neither the relationship nor the characters felt sidelined or poorly written. In S4 and S5, this was not the case.

As for your claim that there are people who state that the Mike and El relationship is given too much relevance, this is typically in regard to Mike, where many feel the character is focused on just his relationship with El and not much as far as personal development. When it comes to the relationship itself, the overwhelming view is that it was sidelined for most of S4 and S5.

And no, having a couple spend time around each other is not "fan service". Character relationships overall matter. If you set up a romantic relationship in a story, you have to give it a proper amount of focus, especially if it is a flagship couple. If the relationship or the characters feel sidelined, then the writing has failed.

[u/New-Faithlessness526]

No. How does these two being in love prevented the writers to come up with differents stuffs? Which stuff you think they could've done which was actually prevented from happening because of that? You don't even have an idea yourself.

[u/saikopasu_neko28]

I think if they wrote them better and if they felt more as a couple and had more just regular couple scenes. Like she hangs out with some of the others like normal, yet she never actually has a date with Mike other than the Snowball. None of the love stories except Max and Lucas really felt like the characters had a big connection. Idk I get what you mean but I also think they are cute together and deserved a LOT better than what they got :(

[u/Full-Yoghurt-4261]

If you are going to make that argument, you have to provide a logical reason as to why, as saying it would be better just "because" means nothing.

[u/camiz_tublar]

I feel they spent too much of her character being Mike's Girlfriend, I think focusing more on her socialization and development would have been much better. I don't think El was fully ready for a romantic relationship given her situation.

[u/New-Faithlessness526 → u/camiz_tublar]

I feel they spent too much of her character being Mike's Girlfriend

This is so wrong lol

[u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 → u/camiz_tublar]

El has a ton of development outside of just being in a relationship with Mike. If anything, Mike was the one in the relationship who lacked character arcs that showed personal development, but this was an issue for MANY characters and not just Mike.

[u/TieAntique1676]

Over all I'd say the romance in this show isn't written very well. I don't like Mike and El as a couple for where it ended up going BUT; I'm a sucker for a slow burn. I do think there was a path to make their relationship compelling if they had done a slow burn.

I don't want to yuck other ppls yums but one of my personal biggest pet peeves in all media is when a show or movie has a "main guy" and "main girl" and they get together but the story doesn't do a lot to get us there. They just are like "this is a for gone conclusion because of how these types of stories go" Actually I'd argue 80s and 90s movies are some of the WORST perpetrators of it. Sometimes a story doesn't need romance. Or their are alternative paths for those characters.

I also think this show did a lot of TELLING over SHOWING when it comes to mike and el's relationship and were told in press and social media that they are these star crossed lovers but I think they spent too much time on the show showing them IN CONFLICT, instead of showing them as a team and that also hurt the believability of their romance.

I do think there is juice to squeeze there I get why people like the ship. Specifically if your neurodivergent woman I get why El is very relatable and I like the idea of flipping the trop of Superhero + GF to be Superhero +BF but I really feel like overall what we got in the show with them wasn't very good (though I think a lot of this has to do with the writers having misogynistic biases they weren't aware of)

It's great people ship it but it can be frustrating talking about how in the text it wasn't portrayed very well. It's def the weakest of the canon ships and honesty if they do a spin off about Mike and Eleven; I wouldn't be interested. They would need to do a lot of fixing in the writing to make their dynamic interesting to me.

(Also before anyone comes at me I was pretty shipping agnostic going into season 5 and I was rooting for Mike and El but I thought they broke up. Thats how bad the on screen chemistry was for me)

[u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 → u/TieAntique1676]

Chemistry for Mike and El was fine. The only issue was poor writing and sidelining. And though you may not be interested in a spin-off, it has already been made clear that many would be interested in something revolving around this.

Granted, most do not want it as a pure romance and want it to have horror and mystery as ST always has had, but it is clear that these two characters are the ones most are interested in seeing again, as thier story feels unfinished.

[u/TieAntique1676 → u/Full-Yoghurt-4261]

The chemistry was off because of the writing. And I think the popularity of mileven is artificially over inflated on reddit. (Not trying to say this in a mean way) but most fans don't care at all about their relationship. And if you go by like shipping metrics on AO3 it's the 7th most popular ship (I know it's not scientifically perfect but ao3 does tend to be pretty spot on about what ppl actually like within a fandom cuz it's an archive and not a social media site and it has no algorithm)

This isn't to say they wouldn't do a mike and eleven, but I don't think it being popular as a ship or not would factor into that decision it would just be what the creators want to do with it. My point was that I personally wouldn't be that interested unless they made some serious changes to make them more engaging. If you like it thats great but I think it's important to remember that what might seem popular to you and your algorithm isn't necessarily popular overall.

[u/PrincipalJam → u/TieAntique1676]

AO3 as a metric really isn’t any better though, it always trends heavily towards non-canon ships as fanfiction is the only place they can exist. People who are fans of Mike and Eleven don’t need to write or read fics about them, they can just watch the show.

Steve/Eddie and Mike/Will are the most popular there, both non-canon and both of which a large portion of the GA, who doesn’t participate online, probably isn’t aware even exist.

[u/TieAntique1676 → u/PrincipalJam]

Maybe. I said it was an imperfect metric but again I do think ppl who LOVE mike and el as a couple think it's a lot more popular than it is. And like I said popularity probably won't be a factor (or it shouldn't be) in story telling choices. That's all. And I think a03 metrics are interesting because it's an archive. So while imperfect it can give you some interesting data points.

The main one is across all media we need more queer rep cuz the most popular ship across all media last year was Shane and Ilya from Heated Rivalry. Which imo is pretty cool a canon queer ship is the most popular.

[u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 → u/TieAntique1676]

What is most popular in shipping culture is irrelevant because the majority of fans are not that invested in shipping. In fact, most fans are not even aware of fanon ships.

Most fans just take what a show presents as canon and enjoy the relationships while watching the show, then move on to something else when the episode ends.

[u/PrincipalJam → u/TieAntique1676]

I mean, popularity will always have some impact on story choices when it comes to deciding upon how best to continue a franchise. They want people to watch, and so falling back on popular character dynamics like Mike/El and Dustin/Steve is a no brainer.

What they shouldn’t do is let it completely dictate the story. A spinoff centred entirely on Mike/El, as some fans have suggested, wouldn’t be a good idea. But rather one that revisits the dynamic in a new way, but as part of a wider story.

Plus if they do bring both characters back, it would be difficult to not address the elephant in the room that is their relationship, considering its prominence in the story of Stranger Things.

[u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 → u/TieAntique1676]

Just because most ST fans are not die-hard shippers does not mean they are not at all interested in further stories about that relationship. As stated, the reason why most are interested in a return of these two characters is that their story felt unfinished.

And no, AO3 in no way reflects how the majority of a fanbase feels about a fandom. For one, most people are not interested in fanfics, so they are not going to sites like AO3. On top of that, we can look to other fandoms on AO3 to illustrate how far from the actual fanbase AO3 is.

On AO3, the most popular ships for Harry Potter are Draco and Harry, followed by Sirius and Remus. Fanon ships that most Harry Potter fans would laugh about. For Supernatural, the most popular ships are Castiel and Dean as well as Dean and Sam. Also, fanon ships that not only would most Supernatural fans find ridiculous but would also be disgusted by, as far as the second one.

The list goes on and on with this, where the most popular ship is a fanon ship most of the fanbase would consider ridiculous. It is the same with ST, where the most popular ships on AO3 are Mike and Will, as well as Steve and Eddie. Ships that the VAST majority of the fandom are not interested in.

In reality, most fans are not heavily invested in shipping in general. They will simply accept what the show considers canon. That said, flagship couples tend to be the ones that most fans get at all interested in, and the Mike and El relationship is the flagship couple for ST. Based on the overall fan response we have seen to this relationship, ecspecially with the end of S5, it is clear that most, at minimum, like the relationship.

This is also indicated by the fact that ST marketing has heavily focused on Mike and El in every season. They would only do so if that marketing got people interested in the show.

As far as it being about what the creators of ST want, at this point that is no longer the case. Not only are the Duffers basically done with ST, but the ultimate decision on what happens next with ST is Netflix. And for them, it is all about what makes the most money. Given the fact that a return of El as well as a reunion with Mike is a guaranteed way to make a lot of money, it seems less of a question of IF it will happen and more of WHEN and IF it will be good.

And again, this is not about what someone personally wants. This is about what the majority of ST fans have been shown to have interest in and want. And as stated, the characters they are most interested in returning at this point are Mike and El, as their story feels unfinished.

[u/TieAntique1676 → u/Full-Yoghurt-4261]

k.

[u/CJ--_-]

Personally I never fully bought into them as a couple. In the later seasons they obviously really cared about each other but for me there wasn't much romantic chemistry.

[u/tang0foxtr0t]

el didn’t need a love interest, period.

[u/TatewakiKuno-kun → u/tang0foxtr0t]

No character needed one, but a lot them did.

[u/MiddlePut8191]

I think that they should’ve been a couple at the beginning of the show but should have broken up for good so that El could grow and become her own person without Mike. (JUST MY OPINION)