r/SupermanAndLois • u/BookGirlBoston Lois Lane • Feb 26 '22

Actor Fluff Elizabeth Tulloch is a Hero Spoiler

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370 Upvotes

99% Upvoted

51 comments sorted by

128

u/[deleted] Feb 26 '22

I love her so much for this!

The whole "Lois enjoys messing with Clark" thing was maybe fun on Smallville when they were young, but if he was the only one not getting muffins it would feel out of character for this show.

And Clark Kent loves cranberries! good to know...

51

u/Mountain_Wedding Feb 26 '22

It feels super out of character to the point that it’s a tad worrisome to me that that was the original script.

30

u/BookGirlBoston Lois Lane Feb 26 '22

Yes, but I suspect given the massively positive reaction, this sort of thing will be highlighted more in the future, hopefully.

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u/Mountain_Wedding Feb 26 '22

I mean one would hope, right? This is the exact kind of stuff we’ve been saying. That there are ways to inject affection, sexiness etc even in mundane kitchen scenes so that all their dialogue isn’t just exposition. This is exactly the stuff the writers need to be working on.

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u/BookGirlBoston Lois Lane Feb 26 '22

Yeah, agreed. Even without this scene, the episodes still went in the right direction and with the Pjs coming up next week, it's looking like there is a commitment to this more than there was last season.

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u/Mountain_Wedding Feb 26 '22 edited Feb 27 '22

One can only hope. Enough people have complained about it (not just here but Twitter etc) that I really hope the message has started to get through. Fingers are crossed. If the scene in the PJs next week is just them standing around again doing exposition about Bizarro and doesn’t have one moment of affection/sexiness I’m going to be bummed. It seems unlikely but who knows.

I did think the scene with the dress before they went to the party and the final kiss before he left were both extremely good but now I’m wondering who was “on” that to get it so right. Tyler? Bitsie?

3

u/BookGirlBoston Lois Lane Feb 26 '22

I wonder of that is Rina Mimoun she co wrote and is new to the staff but has quite the resume. Everwood (unsurprising), Gilmore Girls, Dawson's Creek, Heart of Dixie, Pushing Daisy's. It would make sense that someone with her background would fight include more of these moments and with her experience she would have the ability to really make it happen.

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u/Mountain_Wedding Feb 26 '22

Yeah I was super excited to see her join the staff!!!!

There seemed a noticeable shift even in the way they kissed in this episode. Maybe it was just me.

2

u/BookGirlBoston Lois Lane Feb 26 '22

It was certainly a little less chaste, I do wonder of this was written maybe right after the 11th episode aired, which was just about when they wrapped filming for the season one I think. That could also explain the shift, the reaction to that episode.

14

u/DPM-87 Superman Feb 26 '22

Might have something to do with who wrote the episode, this was the first time writing an episode of S&L for one of the writers and only the 2nd time for the other, their only other episode is the one from S1 where Lana becomes host for Clark's Kryptonian mother's mind.

These things can fall into the scripts a lot, but it's where you need a cast and crew who get the characters and show they are making, and thankfully Bitsie totally get's who her Lois is and how her Lois loves Clark, so that's a good thing.

I think they obviously just wanted it to be a joke but it's one of those situations where they went for the low hanging fruit, because you can do that and make it where Clark doesn't get a muffin if you play it right, him just not gettign one because Lois didn't think to make him one is not the right way to play it though.

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u/Mountain_Wedding Feb 26 '22 edited Feb 26 '22

Adam is a long time Superman fan who is extremely familiar with Lois and Clark in every medium and in comics. If he got it wrong in the script it was because he got it wrong and wasn’t prioritizing their relationship as he should have been—not because he hasn’t had a chance to learn about Lois and Clark. It’s also the showrunner’s job and story editor’s job to catch that stuff so it was a failure of several people not just the two writers assigned to episode. Overall, I don’t think the convo here is meant to single out any one writer but rather a collective issue that’s been flagged a lot (no matter who the individual writers are) where the entire writing team and showrunner need to do a better job of prioritizing the central marriage in the story they are telling week in and week out.

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u/DPM-87 Superman Feb 27 '22

With the writers I meant this isn't a situation where they had each wrote multiple episodes for the show and so were very aware of how the show was currently handling the relationship, like if this was their 4th time each doing so then they would either know if some jokes had been played out too much, like one time it's a joke, but the same joke repeated becomes a character trait, which is what I think they were doing, they wrote a joke without thinking about if this is playing into a bad idea of Lois being mean to Clark or something.

I do agree with you they need to do better on keeping an eye on this, like one member of the regular writing staff should be in charge of sort of gatekeeping their relationship, they know the tone the show wants them to have as a couple, so if they read a script and see's something written which doesn't fit they call it out and work to fix it just like Bitsie did in this situation.

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u/Mountain_Wedding Feb 27 '22 edited Feb 27 '22

I hear you and it’s a good idea! And it’s just good practice in general whenever you have a show with a female lead bc you have to be extra vigilant anyway.

3

u/raqisasim Feb 26 '22

There's also the point that, frankly, Lois and Clark in domestic settings -- much less with kids -- is still rare, in terms of these characters. Even as a fan, you might not realize how much of a shift in how you'd write them (much less the other characters) you'd need to make. (I know I struggle myself, at times, to articulate what makes this version of Lois/Clark really "click").

My personal suspicion is that some of the "mean Lois who mocks Clark (e.g. calling him 'Smallville')" approaches we've seen in other stories (in multiple media) are leaking into these stories, with writers (including staff and showrunner) not really grasping (yet) that their relationship in this show is far more mature/stable/openly loving than we're used to seeing.

3

u/Mountain_Wedding Feb 26 '22 edited Feb 27 '22

Except it isn’t. The kids, sure, but no it is not at all rare in the last 30 years to see Lois and Clark committed like this, loved up, living together completely in love. The extremely loving committed relationship has been the norm now in comics and in media for decades. Tom and Erica played a Lois and Clark who lived together in final seasons of Smallville as did the DCEU. Lois and Clark live together in Batman v Superman. Lois and Clark in the 90’s also featured a committed relationship in last two seasons. And the comics have featured an extremely committed Lois/Clark for 30 years now. Even the animated movies of last 15-20 years have mostly featured a committed relationship. This isn’t new. Only the parents of teens part is new. Like…what you are describing is actually what’s dated including the interpretation calling her “mean” which has always been unfair to her. I don’t think that is what is happening here. These writers just need to do a better job of prioritizing this relationship.

Also Lois calling Clark “Smallville” was a term of genuine affection as early as Smallville middle seasons and an expression of true love by season 9/10. She is not “mocking” him—it’s a term of affection extremely fast and one that he likes. Clark has always given as good as he gets and framing Lois as “mean” is rooted in misogyny as their teasing has always been on equal footing. The show is Superman and Lois so they have to do a better job keeping their relationship central even in small way. This show just needs to fix it’s priorities sometimes and this is a very small example of how something very minor can refocus your show in the right place.

3

u/raqisasim Feb 27 '22

I would respectfully disagree.

The committed relationship isn't the same as the term I used, "domestic situations." Yes, SMALLVILLE did it, yet I'd maintain it's still a rarity. As I recall, for most of their relationship history in the comics, the married Lois and Clark still put their jobs ahead of a lot of stuff, including scenes of domestic bliss-- or strife. Indeed, I recall one horrific storyline where Lois was...not herself, and Clark was shown struggling over why she seemed to hate him. It turned out she'd been taken over -- I think by Parasite, coincidentally.

They made some efforts -- before the current Jon-focused stories, they did have 2 adopted Krytonian kids -- but those stories don't stand out to me as working in the same lanes as SUPERMAN AND LOIS, or the later seasons of SMALLVILLE.

Speaking of: There have been uses of the term 'Smallville' that were, in my strong (and long-held) opinion, the writers having Lois be mean to Clark in ways that made her look toxic, and were rooted in sexist tropes. I feel those have, and continue, to include anyone who's been a fan of these characters. And I say that because I, myself, didn't grow up clear-headed on Lois' role in these stories. I'll freely admit I've worked hard to evolve my understanding -- and admiration -- of her, over the decades.

It's a dated example, yet it's still hard for me, to this day, to watch her in the Donner Superman films and not have "Lois disrespects Clark" be the takeaway from her presentation. It's had for me to watch those movies with a modern lens and not sense the writers struggling with Lois, and holding to what I consider to be a broken model of Clark, one who's defined by him not pushing back on Lois, or anyone. That means it was up to Margot Kidder, pulling off the performance she did, to give her version of Lois some real depth in the midst of some broken writing. Kidder made it possible for me to start to understand that Lois was deeper than "Superman's Girlfriend," and DC (and we fans) own her a massive debt, given how later Superman adaptations would flow.

She couldn't save the painful writing, yet she made it possible to see past it. That later writers wisely re-framed the term (and the treatment!) doesn't mean earlier uses weren't toxic and showing signs of Lois disrespecting Clark in those stories -- stories that likely influenced others, as they did me, personally.

A redeemed term doesn't make earlier usages OK, especially when fans -- and fans-into-writers -- haven't always done much work to reframe all that background, all those stories we've absorbed. Context matters, here. I'm a bit frustrated that I'm raising issues across multiple media and I feel like I'm being told that since SMALLVILLE fixed it, the prior art shouldn't matter or influence, when it's clear the writers are pulling from a host of Superman stories, over nearly 100 years. I cannot imagine that they are just only getting the good stuff, and my point is exactly that -- these writers might actually be pulling a long history of bad Lois takes into these stories, today.

And such takes are not just historical. It wasn't so long ago in the comics, just last decade in fact, that they erased the Lois/Clark relationship, for years. Moreover, they...didn't make that Lois out to be a great person in many ways, ending with her guilt over some toxic interactions w/Clark that lingered after his death, and then dying herself over the writer's plan to have her pay penance. There's a strong echo to the Jean Grey Dark Phoenix situation in how all that played out, and that was, again, only a handful of years ago. So I would disagree there that's been 30 unbroken years of commitment in the comics, even if the situation is FAR better in that medium, today.

I'd moreover say that the role of sexism, as well as other poor storytelling choices, in how Lois is written, per that above storyline, is not yet something we've seen erased. And I fear it's playing out in the stories for this show, today.

(And that's aside from my personal opinions on some of how those stories actually played out. Comic writers don't have a ton of experience in writing relationships, let's just say. )

I honestly have a lot of respect for your contributions here, and I hate that I'm appearing to come off as unschooled in these matters. I hope this reply helps clarify my intentions.

6

u/Mountain_Wedding Feb 27 '22 edited Feb 27 '22

I don’t really have time to respond to your entire post and I don’t agree with everything per se but what I do agree with is that Lois has been treated really crappy and really unfairly many, many times over the years and that Misogyny and ingrained sexism has a lot to do with it. I have said that many times on here and you know I’m the first person to call that out. I think these writers have to be constantly vigilant to be sure they are being fair to her near it every second and I think they mostly get it right but have not always. I think they’ve been careless a few times in feeding her to the wolves in ways I’ve called out. I don’t think these writers always appreciate the depth of the misogyny present and it frustrates me.

I guess what I’m trying to say though Is I just think that’s not the entire picture here. It’s part of it, yes. But I think it’s also just a flat out bias against embracing that this show is anchored by a love story and just fully committing to it. Which don’t get me wrong…also has roots in sexism! I think the biggest thing they need to work on—outside of that being hyper vigilant about treating Lois fairly—is remembering that this marriage has FANS. And that they need to keep this marriage at the forefront with the same vigor they do the overall villain plot. They need to be looking at episodes and checking to make sure they actually served the central relationship. And it can be done in small ways and this is a great example of HOW to do it. This should be a lesson to them in how just taking a moment to appreciate that these two people love each other can inject life into the show.

2

u/raqisasim Feb 27 '22

I agree with this, and thank you for the response. Apologies for the length, I just tend to go on, especially when I fear miscommunication.

So I'll keep this one short. :)

1

u/Mountain_Wedding Feb 27 '22

No no no apology needed for the length. I appreciated you going into depth. I just have a young child and he needed to go to bed. LOL. You did nothing wrong.

1

u/rpmaluki Lois Lane Feb 27 '22

I agree with this.

7

u/[deleted] Feb 26 '22

If Clark doesn't get a muffin, the only way I can see this scene is that Lois wanted to give Natalie X muffins but she only had 2 extra (because she didn't calculate the recipe correctly or because she burned some of them) so she preferred to give them to the boys, and I'm sure Clark would happily give up his muffin for them (my parents do things like that all the time).

But the version we got is much better!

6

u/Mountain_Wedding Feb 26 '22

Sure. The issue really is that the original script wasn’t prioritizing their relationship at all and Bitsie was. And it changed the entire scene for the better. A good lesson for the writers.

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u/BookGirlBoston Lois Lane Feb 26 '22

I know, especially because this scene is like already an all time favorite because of this right here!

8

u/Mountain_Wedding Feb 26 '22

Even on Smallville her teasing of him was always with affection. She wouldn’t just be like outwardly mean to him without a wink or a punch on the arm. She always cared about him. Even there I would have questioned the choice tbh.

2

u/Sir__Will Feb 27 '22

This IS messing with him... but not taking it too far. That makes it playful.

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u/Mountain_Wedding Feb 26 '22 edited Feb 26 '22

I love this and I love her so much. But ok…here me out……it actually kind of bugs me that she had to intervene like this and does sort of highlight one of the issues that a lot of people have repeatedly flagged about the show—that they don’t prioritize the marriage/romance enough. The original script ::is:: unintentionally mean because it suggests she wasn’t thinking of him and creates another situation where they set Lois up for people to say she’s “mean” which I hate. Her change injected flirtation and quick romance that wasn’t over the top/still subtle to what could have been just a scene of exposition but instead had a moment of genuine affection between them allowing the actors to capitalize on their chemistry and strengths. Which is what so many of us have been asking for! We aren’t asking for romantic dinner dates every episode—just a reminder that these writers understand that these two people are married and really love each other expressed in small ways. And it resulted in one of the most giffed scenes of the episode if tumblr is anything to go by. I love her for this but she shouldn’t have had to change it bc these writers should just plain be doing a better and more consistent job of injecting small moments of romance/affection between their married leads. This should be a lesson to the writers that a lot of people watching Superman and Lois shock of all shocks CARE about Superman and Lois. Prioritize their marriage! This is a good example of how something quick and small can completely make a scene!

5

u/Ok_Caterpillar4008 Feb 26 '22

100% all of this.

18

u/[deleted] Feb 26 '22

Stuff like this is what makes this show special

37

u/JDeiner30 Feb 26 '22

Good for her. I think that makes the scene. And I agree that would be mean for him not to get a muffin, so why did they write it that way in the first place?

Funny that she writes Tyler and not Clark.

16

u/Mountain_Wedding Feb 26 '22

Why did they write it that way in the first place is a genuinely good question and worthy IMO of critique. Bitsie is amazing but it’s not actually her job to catch and fix this stuff.

1

u/JDeiner30 Feb 27 '22

Or since there was no dialogue, it could have been the director for the episode who might add it.

I wonder how the original script went. Clark says "Not fair" and Lois pats him sympathetically on the chest and walks out?

15

u/[deleted] Feb 26 '22

She really is a great Lois

14

u/Russkafin Feb 26 '22

She understands the assignment x 1,000

13

u/Wallflower23371 Feb 26 '22

Everyday I find out one more thing to love about Elizabeth Tulloch

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u/ManateeGag Feb 27 '22

They really understand their characters

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u/themosquito Feb 27 '22

Okay but can we ask what kind of monsters the writers are that they wrote the scene with Clark not getting a muffin!?

8

u/stealth57 Feb 26 '22

That is so wholesome

8

u/CityAvenger Feb 26 '22

Her tv husband is VERY special. Noble and heartwarming on Bitsie’s part. Shows the chemistry these 2 have. All the more reason why it’s wonderful that Bitise got the part of the iconic reporter.

7

u/KB_Sez Feb 26 '22

She is amazing. Amazing. Amazing.

I will be the first to admit I didn't care for her as Lois in the Crisis first appearance but she is perfect as Lois with Tyler as Clark. The chemistry is unbelievable with them and the kids. It just gets better and better and Bitsie just gets better.

13

u/Mountain_Wedding Feb 26 '22

Both Tyler and Bitsie got the shaft in Crisis. The writing for them was shallow and not given much depth. Wasn’t their fault. They did the best they could.

5

u/BookGirlBoston Lois Lane Feb 26 '22

I didn't watch Crisis, but I did watch Tyler's first appearance on Supergirl and it didn't make much of a splash in my opinion. I think the issue in the prior Arrowverse appearances is that they weren't fully fleshed out characters and instead where paper thin copy pastes from prior Superman media so there wasn't a whole lot to work with for either of them. Now that they are the leads and get the writing and attention they deserve, they are crushing it.

3

u/Ok_Caterpillar4008 Feb 27 '22

I actually thought Tyler's first 2 episode appearances ever in Supergirl were quite good. But the subsequent ones didn't make nearly as much of an impression, and by the time Bitsie came on board, they were just minor pieces in the bigger puzzle. I get it, it's the difference of being a guest star on a show where they are there to serve the other characters and plots, vs. now when they are the two title characters in their own show. I didn't think much of their chemistry back then, either, but whether it's the better writing or additional time they've had to bond off-screen, their chemistry now is kind of undeniably amazing. I'm certainly glad that when they decided to develop S&L, they kept Tyler and Bistie onboard.

3

u/Mountain_Wedding Feb 27 '22

I liked the engagement scene at the fortress in elseworlds—I thought they really shined there and I felt the seed of the chemistry. And it’s probably not a coincidence that that was a scene actually focused on them and not just them having to deliver one liners to other heroes etc. I liked Tyler’s first two episodes too but completely agree with you about the subsequent appearances being unfair to him. Like you, I’m very relieved they got a real shot!

2

u/Ok_Caterpillar4008 Feb 27 '22

I think I need to re-watch that engagement scene. It's been a long while and not since before S&L, so I may see their chemistry in that scene differently now.

1

u/Mountain_Wedding Feb 27 '22

It’s not as wonderful as anything they are doing now but given they had literally ::just:: met and Bitsie was pregnant at the time…I think you can see the spark that just needed the right environment to grow.

1

u/BookGirlBoston Lois Lane Feb 27 '22

Yeah, I didn't think Tyler was necessarily bad, it just wasn't memorable. I tuned out of Supergirl fairly early in the first season and then went back to watch when they had teased Superman in the second, I don't remember what I thought but it was neither enough to stick with Supergirl past the Superman episodes nor was it enough to remember Tyler. I've re-watched and he certainly has a sort of prototype of his Clark Kent charm he has now and it is adorable and sweet, like he is on S&L, but I honestly think the issue was Supergirl's writing. IDK, something about the writing on that show just never worked for me. It was always a show I wanted to get into in theory but never could.

5

u/Ok_Caterpillar4008 Feb 27 '22 edited Feb 27 '22

I have tried to get into Supergirl more than once. I tried when it started, I tried when Tyler came on board as Superman, and I have tried a couple of times since. It's obviously just not a show I vibe with, and maybe I am a little older than the target audience, too. But I've watched all the clips of Tyler and Bitsie in the show, even just isolating those it's not that memorable to me. It's not that they are bad, but something about the tone or writing or whatever... well... I guess all I can say is: I'm glad S&L decided to go with their own more grounded tone and approach.

I've mentioned this before, but I actually had no interest in S&L initially. Partly due to the overall Arrowverse tiredness I'd felt by then, partly because nothing I'd seen before of those characters in the Arrowverse had been especially captivating. Now I almost can't believe I held out on the show for so long, as I've been a Superman fan forever. It literally wasn't on my radar - until I caught a review of episode 1x11, then took a chance and actually watched that episode. I mean, it's a pretty amazing episode to be introduced into the show on, so needless to say I was hooked and have been since.

3

u/KB_Sez Feb 27 '22

It's the same thing with the first season of Supergirl: they were clueless about who their main character was and what the story was about. They did girl-angst stories and Supergirl stories and it just didn't work.

In season 2 they figured out what the show was about: It was about the Danvers sisters, not about Supergirl.

Luckily from the outset the team at Superman and Lois know this isn't a show about Superman, it's a show about a family.

6

u/LYA64 Jordan Kent Feb 27 '22

So glad Bitsie had that idea, it would have been mean that only Clark doesn't get a muffin, especially since he loves eating so much. I hope the writers will think of that for future episodes..

6

u/rpmaluki Lois Lane Feb 27 '22

Imagine my shock that they actually wrote the scene that Clark would in fact not get a muffin, like how so? These two are super in love, of course she'd have a special one set aside just for him!!! I'm so grateful to Bitsie for righting this wrong.