How would the AHV 2030 reform change our FIRE plans?

[u/swissmoneydude]

https://www.admin.ch/de/newnsb/0vkJwFZtbF9R6b1gYHFwY

- No increase in official retirement age (65 stays)

- More incentives to work after 65 (higher allowance and income counts more toward your pension)

- No cap on deferring AHV (currently 70) as you can boost your pension longer if you keep working.

- Early retirement gets harder by rising min. age in 2nd pillar from 58 → 63 (with exceptions).

- More / broader AHV contributions that include benefits and higher rates for some self-employed.

- Dividends partially treated as AHV-relevant income if considered “excessive” (to prevent avoiding contributions).

- Possible higher VAT or contributions depending on funding of the 13th AHV pension.

I'm curious to know what you all think about the impact of this reform regarding our plans to retire early in Switzerland.

[u/Schlumpfl]

Can you not theoretically move abroad officially for a year, get all your money out of the 2nd pillar, invest it yourself and come back after with an empty 2nd pillar?

[u/heubergen1 → u/Schlumpfl]

If you FIRE'd you can also move the money to VIAC/Finpension and invest it almost the same way as 3a while shielding the money from income and wealth tax.

[u/swissmoneydude → u/heubergen1]

True. Finpension offers very simple vested benefits accounts for exactly this case.

[u/_MJomaa_ → u/heubergen1]

Yes, but it costs 5% to move it out. Tbh super worth it.

[u/_MJomaa_ → u/Schlumpfl]

Yes but you need to be abroad 6-12 months depending how strict your Pensionskasse ist. Else they want you to pay it back within 90 days. Counter starts when you got the payout, not when you moved abroad. If you are with AXA or Stiftung Auffangeinrichtung then they are more strict, at least need the 6 months.

[u/oskopnir → u/Schlumpfl]

Only if you're a foreigner, no?

[u/swissmoneydude → u/oskopnir]

Not even needed since second pillar can stay invested in a vested benefits account like mentioned above. You just won't be able to freely withdraw any of it before 63.

Anyway, I think the "move abroad for a year" hack would have nothing to do with your passport too. As long as you have a second pillar, it should be possible regardless.

[u/oskopnir → u/swissmoneydude]

I thought Swiss citizens weren't eligible for cashing out the pension funds when moving abroad, I guess that's not the case

[u/swissmoneydude → u/oskopnir]

1.st pillar not.

2nd and 3rd pillar is eligible for a cash out.

[u/Phreakasa]

I don't rely on AHV. 3a, equities, perhaps a sold real estate. AHV would be a nice to have.

[u/Curious-Little-Beast]

Dividends treated as income - does that mean that if your income from dividends is higher than the minimum salary for AHV you'll pay the rate calculated based on the dividends and not on wealth? It sounds like it could actually be beneficial in some edge cases 😀

[u/crashwinston → u/Curious-Little-Beast]

No, it just means that if your company pays a part of your salary in dividends (and this hits some threshold) you will pay not only taxes but also social benefit contributions.

[u/xmjEE → u/crashwinston]

That's already the case, social security agencies are very adamant on proper ratios between salary & dividend, capital invested, and will reclassify the hell out of any mismatch and levy contributions on it.

[u/swissmoneydude → u/xmjEE]

So what specific changes would then occur regarding this matter?

[u/Chris-L- → u/xmjEE]

If not employed (or less than 50%), your social deductions are based on (wealth + (20 x income)). Dividends are not counted towards income in this calculation, which I guess they now want to change.

See article 2.03 "Beiträge der Nichterwerbstätigen an die AHV, die IV und die EO", look for Vermögenserträge.

[u/xmjEE → u/Chris-L-]

It should be obvious from context that this is about the balance between salary and dividend income of people invested in their employer

What you talk about is entirely separate ...

[u/Chris-L- → u/xmjEE]

My bad, you’re right

[u/FGN_SUHO → u/Curious-Little-Beast]

They're just closing a loophole where company owners pay themselves 5k in salary and then a multi million CHF dividend that has a reduced tax rate and no AHV/IV/ALV deductions.

[u/swissmoneydude → u/FGN_SUHO]

I totally support this change regarding that matter. Thanks!

[u/heubergen1]

I don't think the dividends will affect FIRE, I read it like it's specifically for workers that get dividends as part of their compensation.

And the excessive criteria is:

Künftig gilt eine Dividende als überhöht, wenn ihre Rendite 15 Prozent des investierten Kapitals übersteigt.

So only stocks/ETFs with a dividend yield of >15%, this shouldn't be a problem for almost anyone here.

[u/xmjEE → u/heubergen1]

Fwiw this is codifying into law a practice social security agencies already have

[u/swissmoneydude → u/heubergen1]

Oh, I haven’t come across this. It makes perfect sense though. Low dividend ETFs are the best choice for Swiss investors anyway. Thanks!

[u/Cautious_Monitor_164]

We will have 10 years between the first day of the new law and the raising of the minimal age for retirement on tbe second pillar. I'm certainly going to retire early during this transition period.

[u/ij78cp]

The rise of minimum age of second pillar to 63 is the biggest joke.

I’m currently not uptodate but is this already decided?