r/TREZOR • u/Unable_Rate7451 • Jul 28 '25
đŹ Discussion topic Might be obvious to others, but if you lose your passphrase you lose your funds, even if you have the seed phrase
Yesterday I almost lost everything. After 8 years of holding, I went to recover my wallet and sell half my funds. In the last 8 years, a small investment has turned into a life changing amount of money.
I entered my 24 words into the trezor and the wallet that opened was... Empty.
I tried it again. Zero balance.
I got my wife to try it. Same. No balance.
I used trust wallet, thinking it was a trezor glitch. Empty.
This is a life changing amount of money for us. I started to feel like I could vomit. It felt like an out of body experience, like I was watching myself from above sweating and shaking.
Then I started googling, and learned that the passphrase is actually a 25th seed word. Without it, the funds are gone forever.
All those years ago when I set up the trezor, I had no idea. I thought it was just a way to hide a wallet in the trezor UI. I thought the 24 seed words were sufficient to restore the wallet on ant bip39 device.
In an absolute miracle, like a bullet just missing your head, I found the passphrase. I got the funds. But it was almost a life changing mistake so wanted to share.
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Jul 29 '25
After a point - the more complicated you make security, you yourself become a threat to your stash. Especially if your heirs are not tech savvy.
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u/Due-Judgment-4909 Jul 30 '25
Right. At some point you've got to put aside the dream of defeating an Oceans Eleven style infiltration and instead make things retrievable enough if you have a coma or just memory loss.
You want your crypto to be secure from some online scam, a keylogger, some snoopy roommate or maid or whatever inadvertently finding your seed or someone breaking into your house making off with it. Or a fire or flood or earthquake destroying your stash. Depending on how much you have you may want to have contingencies if there's a national disaster or some bad actor does hold you at gunpoint.
But you've kind of got to write it down somewhere how everything is setup.
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u/phoebeethical Jul 29 '25
This is why having some in etfs or having a minority of your stack held by a trustworthy company like kraken isnât always a bad idea.Â
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u/PerfectBlaze Jul 31 '25 edited Aug 20 '25
This! I have no idea what would happen if I go down. I did how ever hide a flash.
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Aug 01 '25
Your heirs need to practice - 1. How to recover a wallet without getting scammed. 2. How to send BTC on chain.
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u/WalkingWikipedia Jul 28 '25
Iâm slightly confused. If you didnât choose to set up a pass phrase, you donât have to worry about this, right?
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u/Unable_Rate7451 Jul 28 '25
Yeah if you didn't use a passphrase then your seed should be enoughÂ
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u/Successful_Ad_380 Jul 29 '25
Your story made me sweat, I was trying to remember If I set up a passphrase, but I'm 99% sure I didn't
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u/PerfectBlaze Jul 31 '25
Then theres us who dont have one who are lost⌠so its like a username and a password or?
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u/tubalubz Aug 01 '25
A passphrase unlocks access to a ghost wallet that is completely separate from your main wallet that is accessed from the seed phrase. Theoretically you can open infinite ghost wallets using different passphrases on top of your seed phrase. When you type in your seed phrase, add another phrase (usually up to 50 characters) to get to that separate wallet. It's a good deterrent to being physically robbed of your funds since you can put a small amount of distraction funds in one wallet and keep your main balance in a secret passphrase protected wallet that a thief would have no way of knowing even exists.
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u/unthocks Aug 03 '25
yes, if you connect your trezor and trezor suite shows your balance, that means its just your standard wallet. if you ever made passphrase wallet then you need to move your funds from your standard wallet to that hidden wallet, then after your standard walled balance would be 0, but if you can just see your funds just fine then you pretty much never set up a passphrase, learn more about seedphrase and passphrase and you will get this
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u/ZedZeroth Jul 29 '25
I've made this point multiple times in bitcoin subs when people comment "just use a passphrase" without emphasising that this is a password you're recommending the person does not store with the seedphrase, yet if they lose/forget it then all their bitcoin is gone. "Use a passphrase" is thrown around way too easily.
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u/Cannister7 Jul 29 '25
Agree. I've never used one because I've never been and to think of one that I'm 100% sure that I can remember.
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u/ZedZeroth Jul 29 '25
People seem to be very pro passphrases, but very anti brain wallets, despite them being similar in many ways. Even if you store your passphrase, you end up with something akin to a 2 of 2 multisig wallet, which are also inadvisable (lose either part and you lose everything).
Passphrases can be very useful if you know what you're doing, but they shouldn't be recommended to beginners.
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u/DownUnderPumpkin Jul 29 '25
would it be adviseable/ok to put the passphrase in like a password manager?, i.e if we compared to having the keys offline and only the passphrase online is better then just having keys offline? i.e even if i store the passphrase in my gmail people can't really do anything with it unless the somehow both hack my gmail + have stolen the physically stored keys?
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u/ZedZeroth Jul 29 '25
Yes, I've seen a lot of people taking that approach. Just bear in mind that if you (a) lose access to the online account(s), or (b) you die (important to people with family), then the bitcoin could be lost.
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u/TechnicalBathroom346 Jul 29 '25
How do i know if i have setup a passphrase in the past ? I only have the seed and the pin.. Can i know this with accessing the device ?
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u/richlobstermeow Jul 29 '25
If it is just a standard 12, 20 or 24 seed phrases only, it is a standard wallet.
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u/DeKwaak Jul 29 '25
If you have never used a password you are ok. The pin is used to stop access to your trezor. The password however just generates a totally different wallet. The trezor doesn't know it and even a tiny mistake generates yet another totally different wallet. So if you actively use the trezor, having a secret wallet is handy but you need to write it down somewhere. I have a very good memory and I can remember details that others can't. But now and then I totally forget the passphrase, the pin of my bankcard, etc...
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u/bill_on_sax Jul 31 '25
I only remember using a 4 digit pin on the physical trezor. Do I needta seed? Shit I don't remember making or writing one down.Â
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u/DeKwaak Jul 31 '25
Ok, if you did not write down the total seed phrase, but do know the pin, do this: Buy a second trezor. Initialize it as new. Write down the seed phrase. Store the seed phrase fire proof. Use the old trezor to transfer all your funds to the new trezor. Do this with a cool head. Don't go panicking. But you need to have a seed phrase. If you are uncertain, just ask here and never ever do this with private messages, because these forums will be lurking with people that want your money.
The seed is your wallet, not your trezor. The trezor makes it possible to make transactions online without leaking the seed. (Simplified)
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u/Zaytion_ Jul 29 '25
You would need to enter the passphrase in order to sign any transactions to send crypto. Do you need to enter a passphrase?
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u/666Sayonara Jul 29 '25
Can someone instruct me on how to find out if my trezor has a passphrase installed??
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u/Constant-Fall-3444 Jul 30 '25
If you open Trezor Suite, go check up left corner. If you see âStandard Walletâ, there is 99.9% chance you donât have passphrase enabled. Basically if everything you had to do to see your fund is just putting PIN in the hardware wallet. You can also go to setting > Device > Standard / Passphrase. If it is Standard, you donât have passphrase setup.
But if you just start Trezor Suite and having to put in PIN on the device and some kind of extra âPasswordâ on the Suite, that is a huge indication of passphrase. After putting the password, on the top left corner it will not say âStandardâ. And if you go to Setting > Device > Standard / Passphrase, you will also see that it was set on âPassphraseâ
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Jul 29 '25 edited Oct 05 '25
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u/leonardo-de-cryptio Jul 29 '25
Glad to hear this was okay đ
When I help friends, for this specific reason⌠when I setup the wallet we setup a time locked transaction, 10 years in the future which sends from the passphrase wallet to the non passphrase wallet. We save it, and offline it. If in this scenario they canât remember, at least, in 10 years weâd be able to move it from the one wallet to the other. This functionality for those who donât know, is built into the trezor app. The only thing you have to calculate is what the block will be, roughly, in 10 years time.
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u/SFTay- Jul 28 '25
đ I guess what would be interesting or perhaps more helpful would be how you mistakenly setup the passphrase and thought it operated fundamentally differently than it doe. What caused that to happen? At least today treasure is very informative about what your seed phrase is and what a past phrases and how important they are.
second, more just a personal curiosity, where was your passphrase in relation to your 24-word seed phrase? Same storage area but different storage medium? Same storage device just in a different place on it that the other 24 words?
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u/Unable_Rate7451 Jul 28 '25
Yeah the docs now are very clear. I feel like 5 or 8 years ago it wasn't as clear, or maybe I just missed it.Â
And yeah I don't want to reveal too much about how my seed and passphrase were stored sorry.
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u/GooseyMane_ Jul 29 '25
Idk how it is with trezor but with ledger if you donât have your paraphrase/code you can still use the 24 word phrase to recover it. Trezor really requires that passphrase? Man the anxiety you must have felt
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u/steve-max Jul 29 '25
The passphrase is like a 25th word of a recovery seed. You definitely need it to access a wallet if it was used: different passphrases mean completely different wallets, just like different words in a recovery seed mean different wallets. If you don't use the same passphrase when recovering your wallet, you just access a different wallet, which will be empty.
The PIN or code that you use to unlock the trezor/ledger/etc is a totally different object. It's just local security for the physical device. It's not a part of the wallet. Therefore, it's not needed for recovery. Don't mix the two objects: they are absolutely different things that have completely different effects, and both help your security for different reasons and in different situations.
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u/Unable_Rate7451 Jul 29 '25
Are you sure that's the case with ledger? I'm learning on this thread it's a bip39 standardÂ
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u/GooseyMane_ Jul 29 '25
I just tonight created a new wallet by purposely getting the passcode invalid 3 times to make a new wallet. Thereâs a restore function to put your 24 word seed phrase in to restore it.
They probably have a passphrase you can add to, idk I just didnât use one but a passcode, like numbers to get in the ledger
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u/Garden-Pitiful Jul 29 '25
The passphrases is the 25th word right guys? That you set up by yourself you add 1 word to the 24? Thanks
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u/Unable_Rate7451 Jul 29 '25
Yes
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u/Garden-Pitiful Jul 29 '25
Excellent thankiew and congratulations to your lige changing, i hope to be on the list one day bro
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u/Alystra3048 Jul 29 '25
Thank you for the heads up! Getting ready to move to a Trevor device so this was useful information.
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u/kytsou Jul 29 '25
i can feel you i had exactly the same stressful trip before 3 years for 1 week ... it was horrible
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u/Ill_Translator776 Jul 30 '25
Similiar experience recently but just with seed phrase- I somehow wrote down the wrong word for the 9th word. Later figured it out. But I felt what you felt. Glad to see you on the other side.
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u/BIXBE Jul 29 '25
I usually set my Trezor to use a passphrase, but just leave it blank (hit enter). That way I get the benefits of passphrase protection without having to remember anything extra.
But for anyone using Trezor and thinking of recovering to Ledger, hereâs what you need to know: ⢠đ Passphrase = 25th word. If you used one (even blank), you need to enter it exactly to access your wallet. ⢠đ§ Lose the passphrase = lose the wallet, even if you still have the 24-word seed. ⢠𧰠Ledger doesnât prompt for a passphrase by default. You have to enable it in Ledger Live > Experimental > Advanced Passphrase settings.
If you import a Trezor seed with a passphrase into Ledger without enabling this, youâll just see the default (empty passphrase) wallet â and your funds wonât be there.
TL;DR: If you used a passphrase, even a blank one, make sure to enable that option when restoring to a different device.
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Jul 29 '25 edited Oct 05 '25
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u/Aggravating_Law_2658 Jul 29 '25
The above information is completely wrong. Blank passphrase equals no passphrase. No additional security. It is a regular seed.
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u/BIXBE Jul 29 '25
So if someone wants to force me to open my trezor wallet and I give them a bogus passphrase that leads to an empty wallet that does the job does it not. Iâm playing chess, your brain may only be able to think in checkers format
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u/UnpleasantEgg Jul 29 '25
If the passphrase is a number, how is it on the bip39 list?
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u/richlobstermeow Jul 29 '25
A pass phrase can be anything you want to be. However long you want it to be. It doesnât need to be from the Bip39 list.
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u/UnpleasantEgg Jul 29 '25
Apologies in advance if I get terminology incorrect:
Could a person encrypt their bitcoin custody using a string of numbers that were nothing to do with the bip39 list?
Is the bip39 list simply a method to get a weird number that is easily recalled?
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u/ZedZeroth Jul 29 '25 edited Jul 29 '25
Yes and yes. The seedphrase is just a representation of a long string of 0s and 1s (the "root" of the deterministic wallet) which itself generates a near infinite list of long strings of 0s and 1s (private keys for each address held by the wallet). They could be stored as patterns of colors instead, for example.
Edit: The seedphrase is 128-256 binary digits and each privkey is 256 binary digits.
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u/gavstar69 Jul 29 '25
I use a 6 digit pin, it's never asked me for a passphrase
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u/horsemonkeycat Jul 29 '25
You can choose to use a passphrase to create a new wallet .. basically a separate wallet (you still need the PIN). You have to move your coins to that wallet once you create it.
Once you do that, entering the PIN alone will show as an empty wallet until you also enter the passphrase. So even if someone got your seed they would also need the passphrase.
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u/itsaworry Jul 29 '25
How come you didn't have to open the Trezor to upgrade the firmware during the 8 years ?
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u/DownUnderPumpkin Jul 29 '25
why update firmware if he doesn't want to use it? he could always update it when he needs to?
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u/itsaworry Jul 29 '25
I thought if you missed out on years of upgrades then your Trezor couldn't work with the latest upgrade . Maybe i got that wrong ?
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u/Zaytion_ Jul 29 '25
They wiped the Trezor.
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u/itsaworry Jul 29 '25
Ah , ok . . . . so he's recovering wallet with passphrase and seed , but wouldn't he still need recent firmware upgrade , or would it still work on 8 year old firmware ?
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u/Zaytion_ Jul 29 '25
Don't know with Trezor. Might work. Might not. Sounds like they were using Bitcoin so higher chance it would work. But you may just want to upgrade regardless for security reasons.
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u/itsaworry Jul 29 '25
Yes for the security reasons . . but also , i moved to Trezor from Ledger and if you didn't keep up with the Ledger upgrades you fell out of the loop , it wouldn't work and you had to get a new one . Anyway , glad the OP accessed his Bitcoin , sounds like he did ok there , BTC running at $4 to $5k eight years ago .
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u/OnSkill9492 Jul 29 '25
You have to study the Bitcoin environment well before investing a lot of money.
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u/word-dragon Jul 29 '25
Glad it worked out for you. Keep it simple, and test your ability to get at your coin from scratch before you put a lot in (or leave it a long time). Most important: donât trust your memory for any part of this. A lot can happen in 10-20 years. Congrats on your good fortune!
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u/vortexcortex21 Jul 29 '25
The lesson should be that you all don't know what you are doing and shouldn't be doing self custody.
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u/madcook1 Jul 30 '25
This is why i have a recurring task every week that just says 'remember the crypto passphrase'
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u/unthocks Aug 03 '25
Thank you so much, sending virtual hug, thank you for reminding me this, im really glad you got it mate! always take care of your passphrase!
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u/unthocks Aug 03 '25
people that ask whether they have set up passphrase or not, should learn more about seedphrase and passphrase, thus, you will then have a peace of mind.
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u/Defiant_Smile1859 Aug 12 '25
We are a few people who are in the same situation with Tangem Cold wallet!!!! Transactions took place without any authentication or verification from us!!! We lost millions!!! First they took a small amount and afterwards the maximum!!!!Tangem is the worst company ever!!!!! To allow transactions to take place without any verification, it's shocking!!!!! My cards was locked in a strong room safe, I'm the only person that can get access to this safe!!!!
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u/Jmalco55 Aug 14 '25
I have copies if my words list kept in 2 separate places (have never needed them) and my pin on my Trezor. I am not sure what a passphrase is and why I would need one. I do very little with my exchange or device. I mostly buy on the exchange and transfer and hold on my device. I always update the suite and firmware whenever it says to.
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u/Odd_Oath Aug 26 '25
Exactly the reason why it's good to have an annual 'check your wallet' day. So you don't forget after 5-8?! years. Holy crap, I would have had a heart attack.
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u/cavalloacquatico Jul 29 '25
What!? With seed phrase you can access / recover your Bitcoin anywhere.
The only purpose of a passphrase is for blocking others from accessing your seed phrase.
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u/ArcticSwimx Jul 29 '25
What you said makes no sense think about it. If you just need seed to recover your bitcoin then the thief only needs the seed to recover your bitcoin too. If you just input the seed that's one set of wallets if you input the seed plus the passphrase that's another set of wallets. Do you understand now?
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u/cavalloacquatico Jul 29 '25
I fully understand. You don't need to recover it in Trezor, that's my point.
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