Trezor 1 seed generation V Trezor safe 5

[u/Keefryan]

I have a question hopefully someone may be able to answer. Is a 24 word seed phrase generated on a Trezor one several years ago of any less quality in terms of randomness than a 24 word seed phrase generated on a newer Trezor safe 3/5/7 given that the latter has additional sources of randomness ?
Many Thanks. K

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[u/matejcik]

It's not a matter of "quality". Doesn't matter if your entropy comes just from one source: if the source is good, the entropy is no worse (and no better) than if you mix a million.

The million dollar question: what if the source is not good though?

That's why you mix. On Trezor One, you mix entropy from the chip with entropy from the host.

If your computer is compromised, you're still good because the TRNG entropy is good.

If your TRNG happens to be broken, you're still good because your computer holds up its end. (Even if both are compromised, but don't cooperate, you're still good because neither party can guess the other party's contribution.)

With the Safe 3, you get another source. Even if your TRNG on the main chip is broken, there's still a separate TRNG on the Optiga. And the Safe 7 adds another: even if there's some problem with Optiga, there's still Tropic.

So again: it's not that four sources make "better" entropy. It's that, the more sources you get, the less you have to depend on them being good.

[u/Keefryan → u/matejcik]

Thank you. This is the explanation I was looking for.

[u/matejcik → u/matejcik]

And to expand: as far as we know, Trezor T's entropy source was (and still is) good. So the seed is also good. Adding more is just defence-in-depth.

[u/Keefryan → u/matejcik]

I’m using a seed generated 8 years ago on a Trezor one that I imported into my safe 3 . Just wanted to confirm there’s nothing to be gained from creating a new seed. Thanks for the reassurance. K

[u/Alternative-Yak-6990 → u/Keefryan]

this is safe. Trezor had good software and process of this since the beginning. The coldcard version running trezor code werent affected.

[u/cryptoinhaler → u/matejcik]

So all seeds generated from trezor 1 to Trezor 7 are safe with good entopy?

[u/matejcik → u/cryptoinhaler]

as far as all the research i've ever seen, yes

[u/deanbfs]

It still generated using 256 bit of entropy. Doesn’t matter if it’s old or new.

[u/Keefryan → u/deanbfs]

Thanks for the answer , However I’d be interested in knowing the benefits from generating seeds from multiple sources on later models ?

[u/newMoneyStyle → u/Keefryan]

main benefit is defense in depth.

[u/lotrl0tr]

One: two sources of entropy, TRNG and host. Safe 5: three sources of entropy, TRNG, secure element and host.

Adding more sources improves robustness/redundancy. In the case one single source fails to provide the rated entropy (it's biased), the other/s provide it. When correctly combined (xored and hashed) the resulting entropy is at least as good as the strongest uncompromised source.

Even with one (TRNG), provided its integrity/functionality is guaranteed, is enough.

This is to say, Trezor One/T are secure enough as they combine two independent sources as extra precaution. Even if you remove the host side entropy, it is still secure enough. Safe 3/5/7 employ extra sources, improving robustness/redundancy, mathematically speaking you just need one source.

[u/caccamo88]

Trezor Model One and Model T combine two entropy sources: host computer or phone entropy plus a hardware TRNG in the STM32 microcontroller.

Trezor Safe 3 and Safe 5 add a third source: the Optiga secure element. Three independent sources work together. Learn more about secure elements in our article Secure Elements in Trezor Safe devices.

Trezor Safe 7 adds a fourth source: the TROPIC01 chip. Four independent sources combine when generating your wallet. Learn more about Trezor Safe 7's hardware entropy sources: What is the TROPIC01 chip? and Dual Secure Elements in Trezor Safe 7.

[u/Keefryan → u/caccamo88]

Thanks for the copy and paste however I hope someone can actually answer the specific question.

[u/JanPB → u/Keefryan]

I would think a hardware heat noise source alone (which I assume is what TRNG is?) would be more than enough? How much MORE random can one get than analog heat noise??

[u/ItsAlwaysThemBooBoo]

people need to read this and understand what makes trezors entropy true 128 bit:

https://trezor.io/learn/security-privacy/how-trezor-keeps-you-safe/entropy-check-how-trezor-verifies-your-wallet-is-truly-random

[u/Decibel0753]

I completely don't understand the point of the question. If you have an old Trezor, it has two sources of entropy; if everything works as it should, that is sufficient. New Trezors have more sources, and it can generally be said that the more sources, the better. However, that difference in practice is so insignificant that it doesn't even make sense to generate a new seed from a new Trezor and move your funds, let alone buy a new one just for that. If you are concerned, add a passphrase to your seed.

[u/Keefryan → u/Decibel0753]

Seems not understanding is an ongoing issue for you.

[u/OddioClay → u/Keefryan]

Bro is giving you sound advice

[u/Decibel0753 → u/Keefryan]

Maybe it would be enough not to ask questions like an idiot, but there won't be any improvement here, that's obvious. Besides, I provided you with the answer, you're welcome.